Spencer
- Thread starter Grip220
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My issue was with the word generational. It implies that the other 3-timers with more wins, less losses, no losses by fall were somehow less than him. If that's what was meant, then it's a biased opinion. Which you would expect on an Iowa board. Outsiders, or as you say trolls, sometimes need to provide a reminder that people see the world through (insert school colors) glasses.
Spencer was a generational 125 pounder. No doubt. It's been almost a generation since Abas. But when you compare what he did, his stats, how he won, he is right alongside other recent dominant 3-timers. Retherford, Dieringer, Nickal, Nolf.....these guys were monsters who nobody touched. What actually separates him from these guys? His offense? Definitely not. His top ride? Yes, the tilt was amazing although Zain was great on top too. On bottom? Definitely not. So what was it exactly? How quickly he beat people? Nickal was great at that too.
So, we agree. He is generational. As a 125 pounder. But "just another" 3-timer.
40 of Spencer's 98 wins ended in the 1st period, including 11 falls in under one minute. That means 40% of his wins ended in less than 3 minutes and 11% of them ended in less than 60 seconds.
If you're just looking at bonus % and national titles by each wrestler, sure, they might seem similar but when you break it down, none of the guys you mentioned, outside Bo, came close to matching Spencer's level of dominance.
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Spencer may have been better in the first period than the three timers mentioned in the prior post, and possibly the best first period wrestler of all time. However, the other guys mentioned in the prior post were better than Spencer in the third period, and I am not just limiting the analysis to this year. In my opinion, the GOAT does not become vulnerable to lesser wrestlers in the third period.
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How many times did Spencer even get to the 3rd period?
Also, there is no “may” to it. He was significantly more dominant in the first period and that isn’t up for debate.
Look this debate is very simple. At his best, Spencer is probably the best there has ever been at the college level, except probably Cael. The problem is, his body kept him from being able to wrestle at his best for most of his college career.
So, it is fair to say BOTH sides are right on this. Spencer’s overall performance can be used as a negative if you overlook how good he really was when he could go full out, even in the 3rd period. Mind you that did happen in 2020, but that NCAA’s got “Covided” and his 2018 NCAA Tournament was flawless in a very deep field.
So, if you cut him no slack for all the injuries, I get knocking him down a rung or two. But, make no mistake, they are the ONLy reason he can be brought down those rungs.
So, it is fair to say BOTH sides are right on this. Spencer’s overall performance can be used as a negative if you overlook how good he really was when he could go full out, even in the 3rd period. Mind you that did happen in 2020, but that NCAA’s got “Covided” and his 2018 NCAA Tournament was flawless in a very deep field.
So, if you cut him no slack for all the injuries, I get knocking him down a rung or two. But, make no mistake, they are the ONLy reason he can be brought down those rungs.
They are returning all of their NQs except for Yanni. Should be a contender to say the least, at least for 2nd. Young team!
I'd probably try to use something other than Spencer's dominance in the first period as compared to other's dominance in the third period. Seems to me getting the match over quicker trumps later. Pretty objective. If you want to argue that his injuries limited his ability to train and be effective in the third - have at it. But that's just me.
I don't know about the best ever besides Cael ( at least at 125 ). Of course his knees had a lot to do with it. I get it. Kid is a WARRIOR.
But he may not have been even the best Hawk at that weight.
You must consider that Barry Davis won 3 in weight classes that included two other World Level ( Silvers) in Joe McFarland and Kevin Darkus. I think his record vs Darkus was something like a 10 match gap- at least. Also, Olympic Champion Bobby Weaver was in Barry's weight brackets. World Silver Gary Bohay was in there too.
Think it's safe to say that Spencer has never had opposition quite as intense as those four. Barry also made an Olympic team while still in college.
Eddie Banach was pure dominance as well, check out his NCAA stats as a redshirt freshman- senior. Yes, he got majored by another super-stud in Mark Schultz, but that was only because Eddie wrestled the stupidest match of his life. Everybody saw it.
Then there's Lincoln Mac and Joe Williams....nuff said about other Hawks!
I would have liked to have seen how Spencer would have done with guys like Terry Brands, Ricky Bonomo, Joe Gonzales, Gene Mills, Stephen Abas. He would get some wins maybe, depending on which guy has his best game, but would be interesting. Abas, Brands, Gonzales all nails on their feet, Mills and Bonomo incredible on top.
But he may not have been even the best Hawk at that weight.
You must consider that Barry Davis won 3 in weight classes that included two other World Level ( Silvers) in Joe McFarland and Kevin Darkus. I think his record vs Darkus was something like a 10 match gap- at least. Also, Olympic Champion Bobby Weaver was in Barry's weight brackets. World Silver Gary Bohay was in there too.
Think it's safe to say that Spencer has never had opposition quite as intense as those four. Barry also made an Olympic team while still in college.
Eddie Banach was pure dominance as well, check out his NCAA stats as a redshirt freshman- senior. Yes, he got majored by another super-stud in Mark Schultz, but that was only because Eddie wrestled the stupidest match of his life. Everybody saw it.
Then there's Lincoln Mac and Joe Williams....nuff said about other Hawks!
I would have liked to have seen how Spencer would have done with guys like Terry Brands, Ricky Bonomo, Joe Gonzales, Gene Mills, Stephen Abas. He would get some wins maybe, depending on which guy has his best game, but would be interesting. Abas, Brands, Gonzales all nails on their feet, Mills and Bonomo incredible on top.
This got me thinking, did Yianni ever beat a prior or future national champion in college? Spencer beat multiple (Suriano, Nato, Glory.. Vito and Cruz if we count freestyle), but I can't even think of one that Yianni wrestled.
Dean Heil and maybe Nick Lee? Not sure if he ever wrestled Lee. And the jury is still out on people still in college.
Oh god, I forgot about Heil. I've blocked him from my memory lol. He beat Heil 6-5 the year Heil lost like 8 matches.
I think you may also be right about Nick Lee now that you mention it. Don't think it was at NCAAs.
Getting in the way back machine, Yianni beat Nick Lee 12-7 at the 2017 Bearcat Open. I think that's the only time they ever met.
Can we have more than 1 Generational Talent per generation? Seems like Snyder and Dake and Steveson had that title before. If Generational Talent is an exclusive club (read: multiple guys), SL is in. If we can only have 1 per generation, that's a tough call...
Sure. Michael Jordan was a generational talent because he won six titles and was the dominant basketball player of his generation. He was tested against everybody in the NBA. Obviously, we can't test Spencer vs Gsteve or Dake vs Snyder. They can only be compared against the guys they wrestled or were in their weight classes. So the debate wouldn't be Zain vs Spencer but Zain vs Metcalf.
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Is gable steveson a generational talent? I’m only going to ask that one question and not rehash what I already said about results on the mat.
I should have mentioned Randy Lewis as another Hawk who would have been a 125 lber to give Spencer all he wanted and may be the "best" 125 lb Hawkeye. He wrestled 2 years at 126. This is for all you young folks out there.
His only losses ( as an 18 year old freshman) were to (best wrestler in the country after Lee Kemp) Mike Land of Iowa State- who was on an 80 match win streak of his own ( and a World Teamer) and an old high school teammate Jay Swanson- SDSU- who big brothered him at Midlands that year. Swanson was a 2 time AAU Jr Champ who beat Andre Metzger several times prior. After that his other collegiate losses was to HWC member Timmy Czysewski and then several opponents when he tried to finish out his senior year with a severely dislocated elbow- too late in the season for a med redshirt.
He was also Jr World Champ the summer he graduated from high school, pinning the next year's Senior World champ Tomiyama to do it. Also made an Olympic Team while still in college- the boycotted Moscow Olympics. He won the spot over his coach Timmy.
Lewis was 21 when his collegiate career ended. Spencer was a couple months shy of 20 when his started. There should be an asterisk if you are going to compare today's grey-shirted, olympic shirted, Covid shirted champions to champs of other eras. Because they are coming in as men.
By the way, the shot across the bow about Yanni losing to a non-AA is ridiculous. Gomez was a returning AA and probably shouldn't have even entered as beat up as he was. His win over Yanni was legit, and he also was returning Big Ten champ. So Yanni lost a whole 2 matches in his collegiate career. That is pretty effin' amazing.
I still have Stieber as worst 4 timer.
His only losses ( as an 18 year old freshman) were to (best wrestler in the country after Lee Kemp) Mike Land of Iowa State- who was on an 80 match win streak of his own ( and a World Teamer) and an old high school teammate Jay Swanson- SDSU- who big brothered him at Midlands that year. Swanson was a 2 time AAU Jr Champ who beat Andre Metzger several times prior. After that his other collegiate losses was to HWC member Timmy Czysewski and then several opponents when he tried to finish out his senior year with a severely dislocated elbow- too late in the season for a med redshirt.
He was also Jr World Champ the summer he graduated from high school, pinning the next year's Senior World champ Tomiyama to do it. Also made an Olympic Team while still in college- the boycotted Moscow Olympics. He won the spot over his coach Timmy.
Lewis was 21 when his collegiate career ended. Spencer was a couple months shy of 20 when his started. There should be an asterisk if you are going to compare today's grey-shirted, olympic shirted, Covid shirted champions to champs of other eras. Because they are coming in as men.
By the way, the shot across the bow about Yanni losing to a non-AA is ridiculous. Gomez was a returning AA and probably shouldn't have even entered as beat up as he was. His win over Yanni was legit, and he also was returning Big Ten champ. So Yanni lost a whole 2 matches in his collegiate career. That is pretty effin' amazing.
I still have Stieber as worst 4 timer.
Spencer Lee, like most students in the United States, turned 18 during his senior year of high school. He turned 19 during his freshman year of college, just a few months before winning the NCAA title as a true freshman.
Spencer was born in Oct 1998, and won his first title in March of 2018. Turning 20 years old in one's freshman year is somewhat old for a college freshman, in my humble opinion, and depending upon one's point of view.
For perspective, Lee Kemp was still 18 as a SOPH when he defeated Gable in November of 1974.
For perspective, Lee Kemp was still 18 as a SOPH when he defeated Gable in November of 1974.
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Somebody is not good at math. Here’s a hint, Spencer turned 20 in Oct 2018, he would still have been 19 when he won his first title in March of 2018.
Turning 20 your freshman year is more mature than turning 19 after the NCAAs your freshman year. Have a good day.
That would certainly be the case if it was true. But Spencer's birthday is in October, so he turned 20 right before his sophomore season started. Do you know how school years work, they go from August through May, not January through December.
October of 2018 (when he turned 20) would be his sophomore year, you moran.
And sweatybetty can vote. Scary.
He wins a title before he was born and he's not a "generational talent?"
Should be a really good interview. Jersey Jerry cares a lot about college wrestling and KB wrestled for Kent State. It’s awesome that Barstool is getting into wrestling heavily
Just shows how great his mom was, carrying him around in her belly, taking him to all those meets and cutting weight for two.
Whoops. Born March 1998. Won his first title March 2018. My bad. You genius' know what I meant.
Turns 20 the SAME YEAR he wins his first title. Not first class year. Mature Freshman.
Potato Potatto.
Moran? Like Erin Moran? The gist is that he turned 20 the same YEAR he first won nationals.
