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This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

Obama made the consistent western politician mistake of westernizing Putin’s thought process. He also refused to allow lethal aid to Ukraine, even after Putin took Donbas and Crimea.

Trump allowed lethal aid and then wanted a quid pro quo with dirt on Biden in return.

But the worst of all are Germany and France. They blocked Ukraine joining NATO in 2008 and have coddled Russia for at least 30 years.

And here we are. The pattern of Europeans ****ing up Europe is alive and well.


Obama wasn't perfect but he implemented the training of the UKR military, which was mostly nonexistent in 2014, by US forces. UKR would have been defeated weeks ago if not for that decision. I understand wanting to give the best weapons to UKR. Today that makes sense. They have proven themselves as both a fighting force and as an ally. In 2014, caution over sending weapons was likely prudent.

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Obama wasn't perfect but he implemented the training of the UKR military, which was mostly nonexistent in 2014, by US forces. UKR would have been defeated weeks ago if not for that decision. I understand wanting to give the best weapons to UKR. Today that makes sense. They have proven themselves as both a fighting force and as an ally. In 2014, caution over sending weapons was likely prudent.

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No it wasn’t prudent. It was weak and typically western to try to take a middle path (training without lethal aid). It failed.
 
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No it wasn’t prudent. It was weak and typically western to try to take a middle path (training without lethal aid). It failed.
In hindsight, you are correct. But in 2014 there was no way to know that a) it wouldn't be considered a hostile act by Russia, and b) Putin would act so irrationally 8 years later. Second guessing US policy for trying to walk a wire is no more than an academic exercise, there's no real blame here.
 
No it wasn’t prudent. It was weak and typically western to try to take a middle path (training without lethal aid). It failed.

We sent lethal aid during the Obama years. It was measured and not a shopping spree.

"n a rare show of bipartisanship in 2014, the US Congress passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which appropriated $350 million in security assistance, including anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, to the government of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity. Despite strong congressional backing, President Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine. However, this policy did not prevent the private export of US-made lethal weapons to Ukraine.

During the Obama administration, direct commercial sales of small shipments of lethal arms to Ukraine were reviewed, approved, and licensed on a case-by-case basis by the Department of State in consultation with the Department of Defense. The US government authorized nearly $27 million of commercial defense articles and services to Ukraine in 2016 and about $68 million in 2015, portions of which are classified as lethal weaponry.

These direct commercial sales coupled with the US provision of advanced non-lethal weaponry, particularly counter-battery radar systems, were already in motion during the Obama administration. By comparison, Canada only recently approved a government decree permitting Canadian defense contractors on a case-by-case basis to export lethal arms to Ukraine. However, the recent raft of US and Canadian announcements created a false impression that these were the first-ever shipments of lethal weapons from the United States to Ukraine."


 
Not buying it. Certainly not Azov guys or marines. How they would ever think the Russians wouldn’t kill them is the real question. I’ve seen several comments on Twitter questioning the authenticity of this story.
Tend to agree and probably read the same comments but it's real time too and haven't seen a other big accounts say one way or the other (that account is pretty credible as far as I can tell).
 
Question:
Do any of you think the “average” Russian would have the basic decency to be horrified if they somehow see the atrocities committed against innocent non combatant citizens in Ukraine?
The longer this war goes on, the less they realize and are sensitized to the atrocities. So to answer your question, No. Unfortunately.. And that’s on all of us. We cannot, and should not allow these atrocities to continue. As human beings, as a collection of humanity, this assault upon peaceful people cannot continue. Fry Russia.
 
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I love everybody who thinks they know all the right moves here without being able to have access to any of our actual military intelligence. All I can give is my opinion. We have hoped to westernize Russia for years. It's a noble cause. The world is a better place if we could get Russia to embrace western ideals of freedom. For a while they tried, then Putin came in and played the game while he established his power and control. Now he thought he had the world in a place where he could start to re-establish Soviet Power. He was wrong and we've been viewing him through a western lens. We all made mistakes.

We've now seen who he is and it's clear. So now we judge countries not by what they thought Russia might be, but who they have brazenly proven they are. If we forget about this all shortly and just go back to how things were before then we're all complicit in future acts. But the blame game of who allowed this to happen is silly. All of our past Presidents did some good and some wrong in hindsight. Unfortunately we didn't have hindsight to work with.
 
Tend to agree and probably read the same comments but it's real time too and haven't seen a other big accounts say one way or the other (that account is pretty credible as far as I can tell).

Those accounts have been good through this war. As someone pointed out over the weekend, it takes the bigger media outlets a few days to confirm these stories.
 
I love everybody who thinks they know all the right moves here without being able to have access to any of our actual military intelligence. All I can give is my opinion. We have hoped to westernize Russia for years. It's a noble cause. The world is a better place if we could get Russia to embrace western ideals of freedom. For a while they tried, then Putin came in and played the game while he established his power and control. Now he thought he had the world in a place where he could start to re-establish Soviet Power. He was wrong and we've been viewing him through a western lens. We all made mistakes.

We've now seen who he is and it's clear. So now we judge countries not by what they thought Russia might be, but who they have brazenly proven they are. If we forget about this all shortly and just go back to how things were before then we're all complicit in future acts. But the blame game of who allowed this to happen is silly. All of our past Presidents did some good and some wrong in hindsight. Unfortunately we didn't have hindsight to work with.

Completely agree with one exception not mentioned. The west needs to root out the many Russian kompromat assets holding power in government and the media. Those on Putin's payroll in the west have enabled his various aggressions and atrocities.
 
Ok....please enlighten us.
Dime Store Version below. Note, this is not me being judgmental about any elements of the history. To be very clear, Putin is a bad guy who fashions himself the second coming of the tsars. Moreover, nor is this me making this up out of thin air. This is a respected russian politics academic at a major university, who developed a lot more intelligence-based data than I can recall here. Note also that I'm not going to debate this any further as it detracts from the proper focus of this thread. You of course are free to do with it what you will.

1. Post cold-war (and really more specifically, post 9/11), Russians felt that they weren't really being treated as international partners who'd helped end the cold war peaceably, which didn't go over that great among a segment of leadership, i.e., Putin, that was used to being one of the poles in a bipolar world and who wanted to put that particular band back together.
2. From 2008-2014, as Putin was settled in and transitioning back and forth with Medvedev, they felt like they got more than their fare share of moralizing about free and fair russian elections from the then-secretary of state.
3. From 2014-16, like any other sane person on the face of the earth thinking about the upcoming US election, the Russians were thinking about a future 4-8 years of President Clinton. And looking at that four years, they did not like what they saw, as it was pretty obvious to them that the prospect of 'partnership' was D-E-A-D dead.
4. So when faced with a bowl of lemons, they sought to at least try make some lemonade via social media disinformation. Critically here, when you look at the social media campaign and investment they undertook, two factors are important: (i) the primary substantive thrust of their activity was "sowing discord"; and (ii) at the time of their (really shockingly very minimal) investment in the initiative via trolling farms, etc., no person in their right mind expected Donald Trump to be the R nominee for President, let alone elected president, as he was below 5% in the R-primary polls. In short, they were not so much "for" Trump as they were "against" Clinton, and the goal of the initiative was not so much to "get Trump elected" but rather to be able to say after the election, to the world, that they should ignore president clinton's moralizing as the American electoral system was no shining city on a hill in its own right, all while they tried to rebuild their international relationships going it alone.
5. So tactically, of course, what they did was a spectacular success. They got us at each other's throats, where we more or less have continued to be. And to their own surprise and everyone else's, there was no president Clinton. But strategically, the initiative was a catastrophic failure -- if there were ever a time when it became wholly politically impossible for an american president to try to reset russian-us relations, it was during the period 2016-2020. And so, they became even more isolated than ever.
6. Finally, although it is not really part of this narrative, there is that nagging little fact that Russian's excursions into Ukraine have taken place in 2014 and 2022. And I'm not talking about the coincidence of them following the Winter Olympics, which of course is no coincidence whatsoever.
 
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As long as we’re Monday morning QB-ing, Putin should have invaded in 2014 instead of waiting and trying to build up a war chest against sanctions.

Putin is number one dumb Jabroni.
 
Completely agree with one exception not mentioned. The west needs to root out the many Russian kompromat assets holding power in government and the media. Those on Putin's payroll in the west have enabled his various aggressions and atrocities.
How do you do that however? People have a freedom of speech. The only way I could see us doing this is to go through some type of McCarthyism red scare again and I'm not certain that was a good look.

I mean if we could find people taking payments from Russia to work as agents that's one thing, but as much as I'd like to see Tucker go away, outside of some direct payments how do you "remove him" from the air for just "asking questions" which is how he always does his dirty work. At some point that has to be up to the people to start doing this ourselves and stop giving these people money because they "Own the libs".
 
It depends how many hours they spend watching the propaganda shows on the Russia One channel. I'm not being facetious with this answer. It's not the only factor but it is probably the most significant.
Stockholm Syndrome with a lot of Russians…

They’ve been under the heel forever. Probably done irreparable damage to them to some degree
 
Stockholm Syndrome with a lot of Russians…

They’ve been under the heel forever. Probably done irreparable damage to them to some degree
Ukraine was under the same heel for 400 years.

At some point people have to decide to fight for a better life. Afghanistan wouldn’t do it. Ukraine did.
 
Ukraine was under the same heel for 400 years.

At some point people have to decide to fight for a better life. Afghanistan wouldn’t do it. Ukraine did.
Fair point. Ukraine has had a taste of the good life though….I don’t think the Russians ever have.
 
Would Russia do prisoner exchanges. They’d probably want a dozen of their garbage troops for every Ukrainian.
They’ve done a few so far. The priority for Ukraine has been female soldiers.

I agree with you that these guys are worth 100 Russians. They literally fought until they ran out of ammo.
 
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They’ve done a few so far. The priority for Ukraine has been female soldiers.

I agree with you that these guys are worth 100 Russians. They literally fought until they ran out of ammo.
Or 100 Hungarians. Or Germans. Or Frenchmen. Seriously, we brought freaking Kosovo and Albania into Nato, but not these guys? Wtf!? I say we arbitrarily declare Ukraine part of Nato, and if Germany or somebody objects like last time, we tell 'em There's the door if you don't like it!
 
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Or 100 Hungarians. Or Germans. Or Frenchmen. Seriously, we brought freaking Kosovo and Albania into Nato, but not these guys? Wtf!? I say we arbitrarily declare Ukraine part of Nato, and if Germany or somebody objects like last time, we tell 'em There's the door if you don't like it!
I don’t remember the U.S clamoring to admit Ukraine.
 
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