This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

[86Hawkeye]

We sent lethal aid during the Obama years. It was measured and not a shopping spree.

"n a rare show of bipartisanship in 2014, the US Congress passed the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, which appropriated $350 million in security assistance, including anti-tank and anti-armor weapons, to the government of Ukraine to defend its territorial integrity. Despite strong congressional backing, President Barack Obama decided not to authorize the US government sale or financing of lethal weapons to Ukraine. However, this policy did not prevent the private export of US-made lethal weapons to Ukraine.

During the Obama administration, direct commercial sales of small shipments of lethal arms to Ukraine were reviewed, approved, and licensed on a case-by-case basis by the Department of State in consultation with the Department of Defense. The US government authorized nearly $27 million of commercial defense articles and services to Ukraine in 2016 and about $68 million in 2015, portions of which are classified as lethal weaponry.

These direct commercial sales coupled with the US provision of advanced non-lethal weaponry, particularly counter-battery radar systems, were already in motion during the Obama administration. By comparison, Canada only recently approved a government decree permitting Canadian defense contractors on a case-by-case basis to export lethal arms to Ukraine. However, the recent raft of US and Canadian announcements created a false impression that these were the first-ever shipments of lethal weapons from the United States to Ukraine."

Lethal Weapons to Ukraine: A Primer

On December 22, 2017, the Trump administration approved supplying Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine, capping a nearly three-year debate in Washington over whether the United States should provide lethal defensive weapons to counter further Russian aggression in Europe. A few days prior the...

www.atlanticcouncil.org

Our government was afraid to be seen as sending lethal aid to Ukraine. Weakness. The strategy utterly failed.

 

[86Hawkeye]

Just reading about that now…guess it pissed Putin off and was shelved. 😕

Correct. Putin told his little sister Angela to kill it. Sarkozy helped her. The typical European idiots - Germany and France.

Here's a perfect example. Steinmeier thinks the mistake was not successfully "integrating Russia into the common security architecture" of Europe. He missed the point. The mistake was trying in the first place. They still don't get it.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Correct. Putin told his little sister Angela to kill it. Sarkozy helped her. The typical European idiots - Germany and France.

I didn’t come across anything saying we advocated for it since 2008. Can’t blame it all on them.


I think if we really wanted them and pressed for it they’d be in….

 

[86Hawkeye]

I didn’t come across anything saying we advocated for it since 2008. Can’t blame it all on them.


I think if we really wanted them and pressed for it they’d be in….

Well, Bush was out of office after 2008. In addition, it would've required unanimous agreement of all NATO members. Hard to do when two of the largest members are against it because it might make Vova mad.

 

[mnole03]

 

[billanole]

Bold move, Cotton.
Those people are defining courage and sacrifice. I am amazed and in awe of the stance they are taking in the face of possible nasty repercussions.
The USA and other nations should stand shoulder to shoulder in smacking down the pootins.

 

[billanole]

Time to move more weapons into Lithuania.

Biggly.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Well, Bush was out of office after 2008. In addition, it would've required unanimous agreement of all NATO members. Hard to do when two of the largest members are against it because it might make Vova mad.

Fair enough…

 

[billanole]

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Damn. I cannot imagine…
Those folks are imaginative, resilient, tough, survivors, winners, etc…
They will overcome the pootins, but help by others will make it easier and less painful.

 

[The Tradition]

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Seems like writing that on the arms would make more sense.

 

[mnole03]

Seems like writing that on the arms would make more sense.

Holding a toddler’s arm still while you write multiple contact infos. Good plan.

Stop pretending you have kids.

 

[seminole97]

Would Russia do prisoner exchanges? They’d probably want a dozen of their garbage troops for every Ukrainian.

They've already conducted some.
That's how the defenders on Snake Island were returned.

 

[Slappy Pappy]

Here's a really good article getting into some of the issues getting E. Europeans to give aid to Ukraine. From a couple weeks ago, but talks about the F-16s.

Austin Tries to Budge Bulgaria Toward Lethal Support for Ukraine

 

[seminole97]

 

[seminole97]

 

[seminole97]

 

[Slappy Pappy]

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I don't know what they're saying, but it looks like some Russians dumped everything trying to escape by swimming that river.

Reminds me of a video I saw a day ago where a Ukrainian went to pull the armor plate from the front of a dead Russian's vest....only to find he had replaced it with a looted MacBook. Oops.

 

[seminole97]

 

[Joes Place]

do we? Do we have citizens that would go on camera and advocate for genocide

This one's getting awfully close, wouldn't you say?

 

[Joes Place]

Obama made the consistent western politician mistake of westernizing Putin’s thought process. He also refused to allow lethal aid to Ukraine, even after Putin took Donbas and Crimea.

Trump allowed lethal aid

He did not

That aid was precluded from being used in the Eastern part of Ukraine. "Against Russians"

 

[lucas80]

More than you may imagine. Most Russians - by virtue of decades under Soviet rule - are fairly sophisticated consumers and distributors of information.

In the cities. The older, poorer people in rural areas get nothing but propaganda, and aren’t terribly sophisticated to cut through it. It’s designed specifically for them to consume.

 

[TC Nole OX]

 

[lucas80]

Existential threats have a way of focusing the mind.

Churchill was considered a bit of a buffoon prior to WWII breaking out, but he rose to the occasion. I think we are seeing a similar dynamic at play here.

I think I get where you were going with this. Churchill was viewed as pompous. Neither he or Zelensky are or were buffoons. Zelensky played some in movies and TV, but he is a smart man.

 

[86Hawkeye]

 

[lucas80]

Seems like writing that on the arms would make more sense.

Arms can get blown off. At least on the torso you might get the kid missing an arm, or be able to ID them if killed. I have a USMC cousin who like many of his compatriots got their info tattooed under where their body armor protected their torso.

 

[Tenacious E]

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Not to be a Debbie downer but we are sending 10. If they are the kamikaze kind that is only 10 tanks they would take out.

 

[86Hawkeye]

Not to be a Debbie downer but we are sending 10. If they are the kamikaze kind that is only 10 tanks they would take out.

I know we sent 100 of the smaller systems. There are 10 Switchblades in a system, so that's 1,000 of the 300 model. Not sure how the 600 model is configured. I'm sure more will be sent.

 

[Phenomenally Frantastic]

Merkel and Macron were trying to head off what is happening now by not bringing Ukraine into NATO.

Stooge!

 

[Tenacious E]

I know we sent 100 of the smaller systems. There are 10 Switchblades in a system, so that's 1,000 of the 300 model. Not sure how the 600 model is configured. I'm sure more will be sent.

The more you know and such - was not aware

 

[funksouljon]

I agree. I just don't like the fact that China/India are basically Russia's fall back....we can hurt Russia and are hurting the Russians but those countries are gonna soften the landing.

Seems in the current climate countries like Germany are getting more grief "for not doing enough" than China/India as they just sit off to the side and basically don't get the "grief" they should be getting IMO.

I expect just as it took several days for the Russian looting war crimes to get from Twitter to the real news (all had to be verified) we will see a delay in govt actual decisions and ramp up activity. Including pressure being put on India and China. If the rest of the world begins to make it clear support for Russia will result in reevaluating trade negotiations, China will come around.
Every Indian I have ever worked with expressed how much family means to them. I expect further exposure to the civilian atrocities will move the general Indian population to demand more response from the govt to distance themselves. As well as the more vocal governments putting pressure on India.

I think this is a wait for the gears of govt bureaucracy to slowly churn and get the outliers to come around. Rational countries are not going to want to be on the wrong side of this. Longer it goes, worse it will look.

 

[noleclone2]

This one's getting awfully close, wouldn't you say?

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Have to admit, @seminole97 ‘s wife is a bit ****able. Would take about 3-4 Natty Lights

 

[mnole03]

Not to be a Debbie downer but we are sending 10. If they are the kamikaze kind that is only 10 tanks they would take out.

Blinken said our ultimate goal is to give the Ukrainians ten anti-tank weapons per Russian tank. I’m okay sending a few and seeing if they’re successful. We don’t have a lot of the 600 as they’re still fairly new.

 

[funksouljon]

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I expect him to be Time's Person of the Year among other awards.

The weight of what he is going through will test someone and is a load we just aren't prepared to carry. Perhaps the right person rises to the occasion as he is, but you can't prep for this. If the general UKR population hated Russia before, there will be generations of hatred for Russia after this.

Don't know if Russia goes into some form of rehab after this (aka Germany post WW2) or if they become a weird cult state like N Korea has become, but this will go down as a major pox mark on them.

 

[lucas80]

I’m anti-tobacco, but after watching all of these videos I hope that every C-17 flight into Poland and Romania has a pallet or two of cigarettes on them. It seems like every video of Ukrainians pulling a Russian vehicle out of the mud has a cigarette dangling from their mouth. Let’s take them whatever they need to keep the fight up.

 

[funksouljon]

Blinken said our ultimate goal is to give the Ukrainians ten anti-tank weapons per Russian tank. I’m okay sending a few and seeing if they’re successful. We don’t have a lot of the 600 as they’re still fairly new.

Screw it. I say send a shipload of offensive equipment and private contractors to train the Ukrainians in UKR near the Eastern border. If they are shot by the Russians or "the Ukrainians trying to frame the Russians", they can go from training mode to offensive mode and then call for back up.

 

[Joes Place]

In the cities. The older, poorer people in rural areas get nothing but propaganda, and aren’t terribly sophisticated to cut through it. It’s designed specifically for them to consume.

Well THAT'S an interesting coincidence!!!

#RuralAmerica

 

[Joes Place]

In case not already posted:

 

[Joes Place]

 

[Joes Place]

 

[Joes Place]