This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

[h-hawk]

".Some Russian rocket is flying over the Dnieper"

 

[torbee]

It can load and fire 12 missiles vs. 6 for HIMARS. Both can use the same array of missiles. M270 is tracked. HIMARS is on wheels.

 

[torbee]

Is what he said untrue?
Or just unpopular?

Most likely both.

 

[DFSNOLE]

 

[seminole97]

This far into the conflict, however, it is clear Russia saber-rattling is simply a bluff.

Did you think he was bluffing about going to war with Ukraine over the question of joining NATO?

When/where has Putin bluffed previously and been exposed?

Or are we hoping he’s bluffing?

Because if NATO joins the war, and he nukes Lviv in response, do we toss western civilization in the bin and content ourselves with a good run?

If they think they’re in an existential fight, the real question is, do we?

I think Obama accurately judged the relative importance of Ukraine to Russia and the U.S.

Does this war drag into the next presidential election, where the Republican candidate is going to ‘pull an Ike’, and promise to ‘go to Korea’ to end the war?

No telling how this thing pans out. War is a helluva gamble.

 

[torbee]

Did you think he was bluffing about going to war with Ukraine over the question of joining NATO?

When/where has Putin bluffed previously and been exposed?

Or are we hoping he’s bluffing?

Because if NATO joins the war, and he nukes Lviv in response, do we toss western civilization in the bin and content ourselves with a good run?

If they think they’re in an existential fight, the real question is, do we?

I think Obama accurately judged the relative importance of Ukraine to Russia and the U.S.

Does this war drag into the next presidential election, where the Republican candidate is going to ‘pull an Ike’, and promise to ‘go to Korea’ to end the war?

No telling how this thing pans out. War is a helluva gamble.

If you don't stand up to dictators when they are using state military power to conduct terrorist attacks on women and children, you've already lost "western civilization."

In addition, how can you pretend to be a protector and promoter of democracy if you aren't willing to stand up and prevent the invasion, subjugation and colonization of a sovereign democracy, which is what Russia is attempting to do to Ukraine?

You sound like a modern day Neville Chamberlin. Better to have the fight now, especially while Russia is exposed as a military fraud, than to allow them to "win." Because Putin will not stop at one bite of the apple.

 

[seminole97]

You sound like a modern day Neville Chamberlin. Better to have the fight now, especially while Russia is exposed as a military fraud, than to allow them to "win." Because Putin will not stop at one bite of the apple.

You avoided my questions.
When has Putin bluffed?
Did you think he was bluffing regarding the ‘red line’ on Ukraine in NATO?

I feel like a lifetime of the US picking on light weights has skewed our perspectives on possible outcomes.

 

[seminole97]

In addition, how can you pretend to be a protector and promoter of democracy if you aren't willing to stand up and prevent the invasion, subjugation and colonization of a sovereign democracy, which is what Russia is attempting to do to Ukraine?

Personally, I don’t.

America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice.

-John Quincy Adams, July 4th 1821

 

[torbee]

You avoided my questions.
When has Putin bluffed?
Did you think he was bluffing regarding the ‘red line’ on Ukraine in NATO?

I feel like a lifetime of the US picking on light weights has skewed our perspectives on possible outcomes.

The little bitch has been threatening to use nukes since last February. I haven't seen a mushroom cloud.

So yeah, he's bluffing.

 

[notlongago]

Did you think he was bluffing about going to war with Ukraine over the question of joining NATO?

When/where has Putin bluffed previously and been exposed?

Or are we hoping he’s bluffing?

Because if NATO joins the war, and he nukes Lviv in response, do we toss western civilization in the bin and content ourselves with a good run?

If they think they’re in an existential fight, the real question is, do we?

I think Obama accurately judged the relative importance of Ukraine to Russia and the U.S.

Does this war drag into the next presidential election, where the Republican candidate is going to ‘pull an Ike’, and promise to ‘go to Korea’ to end the war?

No telling how this thing pans out. War is a helluva gamble.

For the last time: stop blaming it on Ukraine wanting to join NATO, or NATO being on the border. Its all about regaining old soviet land. End of story.

 

[seminole97]

The little bitch has been threatening to use nukes since last February. I haven't seen a mushroom cloud.

So yeah, he's bluffing.

I think you’re over generalizing.
Has the condition under which their use was threatened occurred?
I think not, since you’re still asking for it to start…

 

[notlongago]

I think you’re over generalizing.
Has the condition under which their use was threatened occurred?
I think not, since you’re still asking for it to start…

First one coming to mind: Norway and Sweden joining NATO. Once the wheels started moving, suddenly its not an issue to russia.

 

[billanole]

You avoided my questions.
When has Putin bluffed?
Did you think he was bluffing regarding the ‘red line’ on Ukraine in NATO?

I feel like a lifetime of the US picking on light weights has skewed our perspectives on possible outcomes.

Russia/USSR has spent a lifetime of picking on light weights.
The bully has a bloody nose and it seems his ass does not have enough counter weight to handle the load being dropped on him.
Sure, pooty can pull the nuke option, but methinks there may be enough friction against that coming to fruition.
Enough peeps in Russia can read the tea leaves.
Desertion is rampant on the frontlines for the raschists.
It will be similar in Moscow as the tide continues to turn.
I would bet that those with the trigger in hand will not launch nukes in this “action”.

 

[seminole97]

First one coming to mind: Norway and Sweden joining NATO. Once the wheels started moving, suddenly its not an issue to russia.

Norway was a founding member of NATO.

I genuinely don’t recall any threats by Russia in this regard, I think mainly because it wasn’t on the table.
Swedish neutrality is historic, and in 2020 Finnish public support for joining NATO was <30% because most saw it as antagonizing without much material benefit over the present.
Russia’s actions have obvious consequences, and public opinion in those nations have shifted. But I don’t remember it really being any kind of storyline until now.

 

[torbee]

I think you’re over generalizing.
Has the condition under which their use was threatened occurred?
I think not, since you’re still asking for it to start…

Yes, actually.

Early on in the conflict he said providing western weapons would be considered an attack on Russia by NATO.

 

[notlongago]

Norway was a founding member of NATO.

I genuinely don’t recall any threats by Russia in this regard, I think mainly because it wasn’t on the table.
Swedish neutrality is historic, and in 2020 Finnish public support for joining NATO was <30% because most saw it as antagonizing without much material benefit over the present.
Russia’s actions have obvious consequences, and public opinion in those nations have shifted. But I don’t remember it really being any kind of storyline until now.

my bad, slip of the tongue: Finland. Finland & Sweden - threats were made, then when wheels started turning, those threats didnt come to fruition.

THe second one that comes to mind was weapon supply. Followed by big weapon supply (HIMARS)

 

[torbee]

Norway was a founding member of NATO.

I genuinely don’t recall any threats by Russia in this regard, I think mainly because it wasn’t on the table.
Swedish neutrality is historic, and in 2020 Finnish public support for joining NATO was <30% because most saw it as antagonizing without much material benefit over the present.
Russia’s actions have obvious consequences, and public opinion in those nations have shifted. But I don’t remember it really being any kind of storyline until now.

Russia has slammed Finland’s plans to apply to join NATO imminently, claiming it would “be forced” to retaliate if the long-neutral country joined the military alliance.

“Finland joining NATO is a radical change in the country’s foreign policy,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement Thursday. “Russia will be forced to take retaliatory steps, both of a military-technical and other nature, in order to stop threats to its national security arising.”

Russia threatens 'retaliatory steps' if Finland joins NATO

If Finland joins the military alliance, the land border that Russia shares with NATO territories would roughly double.

www.cnbc.com

They took zero retaliatory steps, neither military-technical or otherwise. In fact, they did a 180 and said it was no big deal.

Another bluff.

 

[seminole97]

Russia/USSR has spent a lifetime of picking on light weights.

Oddly, the US has spent my lifetime doing the same.

A 2016 study by Carnegie Mellon University professor Dov Levin found that the United States intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, with the majority of those being through covert, rather than overt, actions.[91][92] A 2021 review of the existing literature found that foreign interventions since World War II tend overwhelmingly to fail to achieve their purported objectives.[93]

I’m sure we meant well.
Mostly.

 

[mustang_hawk]

I feel like a lifetime of the US picking on light weights has skewed our perspectives on possible outcomes.

Don’t say our, that implies you’re actually one of us.

 

[seminole97]

Don’t say our, that implies you’re actually one of us.

If y’all are cheerleaders for nuclear Armageddon, yeah, don’t count me in your club.

 

[torbee]

If y’all are cheerleaders for nuclear Armageddon, yeah, don’t count me in your club.

By cracky!

 

[seminole97]

By cracky!

Do you think the neocons who urged Ukrainian NATO membership as a pillar of our foreign policy thought Putin was bluffing, or do you think they wanted this result?

 

[torbee]

Do you think the neocons who urged Ukrainian NATO membership as a pillar of our foreign policy thought Putin was bluffing, or do you think they wanted this result?

I think they wanted the U.S. to be more proactive earlier. That didn't happen, so now ending this war ASAP by arming the invaded sovereign nation is the next best alternative.

 

[The Tradition]

Russia would be committing suicide if they used nukes. They would be bombed into the stone age.

 

[seminole97]

I think they wanted the U.S. to be more proactive earlier. That didn't happen, so now ending this war ASAP by arming the invaded sovereign nation is the next best alternative.

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, can you clarify what ‘wanted the US to be more proactive earlier’ means?
The neocons drove the coup in 2014 that Putin responded to with the first invasion of Ukraine.
They were ‘proactive earlier’ in trying to get Ukraine into NATO by supporting a coup to replace the duly elected president with someone more likely to align with the West.

Do you think they did that to get this response from Putin, or did they expect he’d fold?

 

[seminole97]

Russia would be committing suicide if they used nukes. They would be bombed into the stone age.

We all would.

 

[torbee]

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, can you clarify what ‘wanted the US to be more proactive earlier’ means?
The neocons drove the coup in 2014 that Putin responded to with the first invasion of Ukraine.
They were ‘proactive earlier’ in trying to get Ukraine into NATO by supporting a coup to replace the duly elected president with someone more likely to align with the West.

Do you think they did that to get this response from Putin, or did they expect he’d fold?

I think they wanted Ukraine to join NATO so Putin would not invade.

Chickenshit politicians balked, paving the way for Putin to be emboldened and embark on his colonial terrorism campaign versus a sovereign European nation.

 

[h-hawk]

You avoided my questions.
When has Putin bluffed?
Did you think he was bluffing regarding the ‘red line’ on Ukraine in NATO?

I feel like a lifetime of the US picking on light weights has skewed our perspectives on possible outcomes.

Russia started all of this when they invaded years ago. NATO has kept Ukraine out because they feared it would trigger a Russian invasion. Apparently that didn't work due to Putin's prognosis and his last chance to rebuild the Soviet Union.

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

Boom!

 

[h-hawk]

"Moscow warned Moldova to avoid joining the actions of countries hostile to Russia. The Kremlin spokeswoman, Maria Zajárova, "warned" the Moldovan government to avoid joining the coalition that tries to isolate and affect Russian interests."

 

[h-hawk]

He appears to do this a lot per a Google search.

 

[h-hawk]

 

[seminole97]

I think they wanted Ukraine to join NATO so Putin would not invade.

Chickenshit politicians balked, paving the way for Putin to be emboldened and embark on his colonial terrorism campaign versus a sovereign European nation.

I appreciate they wanted Cuba to join the Warsaw Pact so JFK would not invade.

Chickenshit Kruschev balked, paving the way for JFK’s successors to be emboldened and embark on a colonial terrorism campaign behind CIA proxies versus sovereign Central and South America nations.

The difference is we mean well, and if some nuns meet death squads, it’s the price we pay.

 

[torbee]

I appreciate they wanted Cuba to join the Warsaw Pact so JFK would not invade.

Chickenshit Kruschev balked, paving the way for JFK’s successors to be emboldened and embark on a colonial terrorism campaign behind CIA proxies versus sovereign Central and South America nations.

The difference is we mean well, and if some nuns meet death squads, it’s the price we pay.

You have an excellent knack for false equivalencies.

 

[The Tradition]

We all would.

 

[billanole]

Oddly, the US has spent my lifetime doing the same.

A 2016 study by Carnegie Mellon University professor Dov Levin found that the United States intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, with the majority of those being through covert, rather than overt, actions.[91][92] A 2021 review of the existing literature found that foreign interventions since World War II tend overwhelmingly to fail to achieve their purported objectives.[93]

I’m sure we meant well.
Mostly.

…and your point about Russia…

 

[billanole]

Oddly, the US has spent my lifetime doing the same.

A 2016 study by Carnegie Mellon University professor Dov Levin found that the United States intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, with the majority of those being through covert, rather than overt, actions.[91][92] A 2021 review of the existing literature found that foreign interventions since World War II tend overwhelmingly to fail to achieve their purported objectives.[93]

I’m sure we meant well.
Mostly.

So you picked my first sentence and ran with it.

Make your own path. You do due diligence, but I am not following your line of thinking very often.

 

[h-hawk]

“Putin is a killer. His soldiers are fascists. 352 children died. How many more children have to die for you to stop? Marina Ovsyannikova held a solo picket on the embankment opposite the Kremlin."

 

[h-hawk]