ADVERTISEMENT

This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

If you don't stand up to dictators when they are using state military power to conduct terrorist attacks on women and children, you've already lost "western civilization."

In addition, how can you pretend to be a protector and promoter of democracy if you aren't willing to stand up and prevent the invasion, subjugation and colonization of a sovereign democracy, which is what Russia is attempting to do to Ukraine?

You sound like a modern day Neville Chamberlin. Better to have the fight now, especially while Russia is exposed as a military fraud, than to allow them to "win." Because Putin will not stop at one bite of the apple.

I'm currently somewhat drunk, and I don't frequently comment in these threads, but there is a factor you fail to mention here: the possibility of nuclear war.

This is not the same situation Chamberlin faced. If you want to make that comparison, the situation in Iraq prior to the US invading in 2003 would be a better comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Russians should be defeated in Ukraine, but this is a much touchier situation than a simple "dictator bad, must defeat" scenario.
 
I'm currently somewhat drunk, and I don't frequently comment in these threads, but there is a factor you fail to mention here: the possibility of nuclear war.

This is not the same situation Chamberlin faced. If you want to make that comparison, the situation in Iraq prior to the US invading in 2003 would be a better comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Russians should be defeated in Ukraine, but this is a much touchier situation than a simple "dictator bad, must defeat" scenario.
I agree it is touchy.

But I submit that all indications suggest the Russian saber rattling is hollow.

You can’t get bullied by a terrorist.
 
I agree it is touchy.

But I submit that all indications suggest the Russian saber rattling is hollow.

You can’t get bullied by a terrorist.
I know everyone makes the same points over and over but why not call Russia's bluff now and save Ukrainian lives and cities. If you believe NATO would actually stand up to an attack by Russia, you have to realize that they would be making the exact same calculation then that they could be now. And it doesn't make a difference that Ukraine is not in NATO-that is just an excuse to not act against the worst regime since Stalin and Hitler.
 
FXwxosLVUAEM1Qq
 
"Video of battles for Severodonetsk of one of the special unit groups of the National Guard of Ukraine"

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tenacious E
Trouble in paradise. Wonder if her ‘briefing’ will include threats or bribery?

“The Biden administration is even getting involved — another sign of growing worries that Spartz’s comments may damage cohesion among the Western coalition in defense of Kyiv. A Foreign Affairs Committee aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the U.S. intelligence community is planning to brief Spartz about her claims in a classified setting Friday morning.”
 
They have stalled out. I have said repeatedly that I am not an expert, but on the ground they've stalled out, and that's why we are seeing the big missile attacks. They are uncoordinated, and the Russians are using the wrong tool for the job, so to speak. Instead of precision attacks against military or critical infrastructure targets, they are just hammering away at civilian targets with large, large unguided munitions. Or, pounding away with artillery with the hope that they hit something important.
Hopefully Ukraine can exploit the lull before the Russians cleanse all the occupied areas and hold sham elections.
 
Ukraine already has some good pilots. Training pilots here would take time, and the question is train them to fly what? Supposedly we are in the preliminary stages of thinking about maybe giving them F-16s and F-15s. Hopefully some A-10s. But that is so far down the road. The #1 goal should be to get whatever Soviet jets into Ukrainian hands that we can. To repeat myself from my last post, I have said this before. I think the Poles and Czechs screwed up a bit by so vocally calling for transferring jets early on in the conflict. There was a pathway if they'd just gone silent and worked to coordinate a way to get them equipped and across the border.
 
  • Like
Reactions: h-hawk
It's not ok to do that.

We give Ukraine the ability to rain missiles on the Kremlin that's pretty escalatory.

That's "retaliatory"

Moscow shelled Ukraine's capital. AND many Ukrainian cities nowhere near "the front lines".

If Moscow doesn't want its cities hit, then it needs to withdraw AND stop shelling Ukrainian cities.
That's the line in the sand. Send Ukraine anything it needs to hit anywhere in Eastern Russia. Ukraine can decide how it wants to use them.
 
They have stalled out. I have said repeatedly that I am not an expert, but on the ground they've stalled out, and that's why we are seeing the big missile attacks. They are uncoordinated, and the Russians are using the wrong tool for the job, so to speak. Instead of precision attacks against military or critical infrastructure targets, they are just hammering away at civilian targets with large, large unguided munitions. Or, pounding away with artillery with the hope that they hit something important.
Hopefully Ukraine can exploit the lull before the Russians cleanse all the occupied areas and hold sham elections
Yep. It’s the same story but in different speed as how they lost the North front, where by the way they put half of their force. They thought they could waltz into Kyiv in three days and then got FUBAR’d due to logistics. No fuel or food or communications or radar or ammo 40 miles in a very hostile land.

It’s happening again along a much wider front. Thanks to the western weapons, the logistic hubs in Ukraine the invaders built to help push an army are now getting pounded.

I really think Putler thought his bluff about west sending their weapons being considered an act of war would work. It did not and now they are seeing the real weapons. He made three massive mistakes: under estimated Ukraine, over estimated his Army, and figured NATO would not help arm like they did.
 
Trouble in paradise. Wonder if her ‘briefing’ will include threats or bribery?

“The Biden administration is even getting involved — another sign of growing worries that Spartz’s comments may damage cohesion among the Western coalition in defense of Kyiv. A Foreign Affairs Committee aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the U.S. intelligence community is planning to brief Spartz about her claims in a classified setting Friday morning.”
Looks like another Putin lackey.
 
Looks like another Putin lackey.
This says it all: “GOP national-security hawks also worry that the MAGA wing of their party, where there’s already resistance to supporting Ukraine, will point to Spartz’s comments as justification”

Keep in mind that MAGA wing is 70 percent of GOP now. Rooting for the guys lobbing rockets at children walking streets next to their apartments in a completely unjust and needless war driven by one man’s insanity. They are rooting against Ukraine. Our country is in a massive hole. If we get out, history will show Russia was behind a lot of propaganda that divided this country dating back 20 plus years from now and matching up to their predictions US would break apart. It was not a prediction, it was their game plan.
 
This says it all: “GOP national-security hawks also worry that the MAGA wing of their party, where there’s already resistance to supporting Ukraine, will point to Spartz’s comments as justification”

Keep in mind that MAGA wing is 70 percent of GOP now. Rooting for the guys lobbing rockets at children walking streets next to their apartments in a completely unjust and needless war driven by one man’s insanity. They are rooting against Ukraine. Our country is in a massive hole. If we get out, history will show Russia was behind a lot of propaganda that divided this country dating back 20 plus years from now and matching up to their predictions US would break apart. It was not a prediction, it was their game plan.

Yep

Called this out >200 pages ago.
A vote for the GOP is a vote for Putin right now.

If the GOP can clear out their fascists and bigots, they can return to being a functional political party. Just understand what you're voting for in 2022 and 2024. The WORST of them will be put in charge of all the major committees and in the positions of power.
 
You have an excellent knack for false equivalencies.
What’s false about it?
If a sovereign nation like Cuba decides it wants to make a foreign military alliance and host bases and weapons, that is their sovereign right, isn’t it?

Unless we perceive it a threat to our security.
Because that’s different.
And then we’re going to threaten war.
Do you think JFK was bluffing?
 
I know everyone makes the same points over and over but why not call Russia's bluff now and save Ukrainian lives and cities. If you believe NATO would actually stand up to an attack by Russia, you have to realize that they would be making the exact same calculation then that they could be now. And it doesn't make a difference that Ukraine is not in NATO-that is just an excuse to not act against the worst regime since Stalin and Hitler.
Going back and reading some of the Obama era diplomacy on this and a phrase stood out to me.
‘Russia possesses escalatory dominance’, meaning this means way more to them than it does us
I’ve asked this question, but the hawks don’t answer it. If NATO pours into a non-NATO country to begin attacking Russians, and the Russians nuke Lviv in response, are we then going to invite the more of same on NATO members?
Or would we pause and figure out how to climb down at that point, after 100k more are dead?
Or would it just be the end of Western Civ?

Cause you’re right, the trolley game says NATO should roll on Russia if you believe Putin is bluffing.

I’ve asked before if people were of the opinion the neocons thought Putin was bluffing previously (regarding the Russian response to Ukrainian NATO ascension). Because those same people are acting right now like they don’t think Putin is bluffing.

That memo from Burns cites unanimous consideration of Ukraine as a vital national security interest of Russia. There has been suggestion Putin is isolated and people wouldn’t follow through even if the orders were given, but I haven’t seen the evidence contra Burns, etc. that would support that hope.
 
What’s false about it?
If a sovereign nation like Cuba decides it wants to make a foreign military alliance and host bases and weapons, that is their sovereign right, isn’t it?

Unless we perceive it a threat to our security.
Because that’s different.
And then we’re going to threaten war.
Do you think JFK was bluffing?
How many missiles did we lob into Havana and how many Cuban kids did we murder? 🙄
 
ADVERTISEMENT

Latest posts

ADVERTISEMENT