Thoughts on Twitter convo - Clark or Ramos?

[JohnBasedow]

There is a good twitter conversation going on with cpyles, sockobuw, Montoya, Beckman and some others. They were talking about McDonough/Ramos vs Gilman/Clark career wise. I think the consensus is McD and Ramos have a better body of work but it has led to another question. Who would win and also who is the better wrestler, Ramos or Clark?

Personally, I think Clark clearly had the better career placement wise and I think he would beat Ramos as well. I think Ramos would have a tough time finishing on Clark and the mat wrestling definitely favors Clark. Ramos was a solid bottom wrestler but he did get ridden at times.

Obviously there is no right answer but it's fun to discuss.

 

[WildTurk]

I will take a healthy Cory Clark in Folkstyle. Ramos in Free

 

[crablegs1]

I'd rank them
1. mcD
2. Clark
3. Ramos
4. Gilman

The only 2 I could see switching are 2 and 3. I think they're very close.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I'd take Cory in both styles. I think he's too crafty, and he has more ways to score, especially in folkstyle. Plus, he matches up well in terms of size.

 

[WildTurk]

Does anyone know Cory Clark's plan? After he gets healed up does he Freestyle with the HWC?

 

[JohnBasedow]

Does anyone know Cory Clark's plan? After he gets healed up does he Freestyle with the HWC?

Yes, that is the plan. I don't remember which interview it was but he said that he would be having surgery then getting into the freestyle circuit.

 

[IAChief32]

Does anyone know Cory Clark's plan? After he gets healed up does he Freestyle with the HWC?

Yes. Heal up and go next year. Loves freestyle

 

[DonHawkeye]

Anyone know if he is planning on going 57 or 61? He will be a handful at 57 if he can make it.

 

[JohnBasedow]

Anyone know if he is planning on going 57 or 61? He will be a handful at 57 if he can make it.

I believe the weights are changing to 55kg and 60kg but that is still not confirmed. I would assume 60kg if the weights change as anticipated.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Yes. Heal up and go next year. Loves freestyle

Anyone know about Brooks plans? I would think he would translate well with freestyle.

 

[IAChief32]

Anyone know about Brooks plans? I would think he would translate well with freestyle.

The same...

 

[pumpdog20]

I'd rank them:

1) Ramos
2) McD
3) Clark
4) Gilman

 

[Good30]

A healthy Mcdonough is tough to rank anyone ahead of in folkstyle.

 

[lookleft goright]

A healthy Mcdonough is tough to rank anyone ahead of in folkstyle.

You got that right, brother!

 

[Jaybird319]

My ranking is

1. McD
Ramos
Clark
Gilman

 

[IAChief32]

McD, Clark, Ramos, and Gilman.

McD for obvious reasons and at full health, is one of Iowa's all time greats.

I say Clark because he had a better resume than Ramos in terms of NCAAs, he was given a shit sandwich his senior year and won one of the tougher brackets wrestling in what was perhaps the most cerebral tournies I've seen.

Tony makes it tough because he had J.O. and Streibler to contend with...both were great and he took one off of J.O. Still, had that DNP his freshman year. Had less losses than Clark. However, given the same set of circumstances (his last year to win one), he wrestled very defensively his senior year and won an easier bracket than Clark with less trying circumstances.

I can't make the case for Gilman having not started his freshman year and not winning in his final year in a weak bracket. I think TG could end up being the best freestyler out of all of them

 

[GableEdge]

Tourney rankings:
1. Clark (wrestling with surgical problems and winning)
2. McD (all time great) wrestled with surgical problems admirably
3. Ramos
4. Gilman

All Time:
1. McD
2. Clark (see above)
3. Ramos
4. Gilman

International (prediction):
1. Gilman
2. Clark
3. Ramos
4. McD

 

[The Vak]

Who had the best career at Iowa?

1. Matt McDonough
2. Cory Clark
3. Tony Ramos
4. Thomas Gilman


Who reached the highest level of wrestling?

1. Tony Ramos, Jr
2. Matt McDonough, Jr.
3. Thomas Gilman, Sr.
4. Cory Clark, Jr.

 

[SansSouci]

Impossible to pick. However, I would pay anything to see it go down and have a good percentage go to the club and wrestlers.

Drop Benny for DD.

 

[Chopper25]

Tourney rankings:
1. Clark (wrestling with surgical problems and winning)
2. McD (all time great) wrestled with surgical problems admirably
3. Ramos
4. Gilman

All Time:
1. McD
2. Clark (see above)
3. Ramos
4. Gilman

International (prediction):
1. Gilman
2. Clark
3. Ramos
4. McD

If McD is healthy his SR year there wouldn't be a question.

 

[CumberlandHawk]

If McD is healthy his SR year there wouldn't be a question.

No question. They had different injuries and barring the shoulder McD was a 3 timer. Also I think Clark is better than Ramos.

 

[lookleft goright]

I think Clark is a better all around wrestler than Ramos, but that does not mean he would beat him. I hate to do this but it reminds me of a Taylor/Dake situation, where on paper it looks like Taylor wins, but he never could get the job done.
I do think Clark is a better spokesman for the Hawks. Does that count for anything in this poll? I thought not.

 

[MSU158]

Ramos was clearly better in neutral and I think he was good enough on bottom to neutralize Clark's strength. But, in March, I would have it as a toss up. Clark turned it on in March when it counted most. Reminded me a lot like Jaggers from tOSU.

If 100% healthy McDonough was the best of the group. He maximized his size advantage and only fell to a 165lb(minus a leg) freak of nature.

 

[Gobblin]

1.McD/Clark
3.Ramos
4.Gilman

McD vs Clark in their prime would've been an absolutely unbelievable match.

 

[Hawkirish]

1.McD/Clark
3.Ramos
4.Gilman

McD vs Clark in their prime would've been an absolutely unbelievable match.

Clark had Matt on the ropes when they wrestled off Clark's freshman year. Clark gave up a reversal with about 30 seconds left to lose by 1. There's a chance McD may not have been 100% but you knew Clark was going to be a good one.

 

[JohnBasedow]

Clark had Matt on the ropes when they wrestled off Clark's freshman year. Clark gave up a reversal with about 30 seconds left to lose by 1. There's a chance McD may not have been 100% but you knew Clark was going to be a good one.

That was the first wrestle offs I ever attended and it had me hooked. Great match between those two.

 

[Bulldog/Hawkeye]

I watched Perry vs Kerr and think it was a new point match, can certainly show potential but take it fwiw

 

[lookleft goright]

Clark had Matt on the ropes when they wrestled off Clark's freshman year. Clark gave up a reversal with about 30 seconds left to lose by 1. There's a chance McD may not have been 100% but you knew Clark was going to be a good one.

When Clark won the triple crown, we know he was going to be a good one.

Clark has always been a bit of a mystery to me. I always thought he was incredible and I could not understand how anyone could beat him. Yet he had losses to what 8-10 different guys in his career? Ramos lost to very few guys and MCD lost to only 3, I think. Precin, Robles, and Escobedo, with the exception of his senior year, which I think is fair to just ignore.

 

[IAChief32]

When Clark won the triple crown, we know he was going to be a good one.

Clark has always been a bit of a mystery to me. I always thought he was incredible and I could not understand how anyone could beat him. Yet he had losses to what 8-10 different guys in his career? Ramos lost to very few guys and MCD lost to only 3, I think. Precin, Robles, and Escobedo, with the exception of his senior year, which I think is fair to just ignore.

Same logic holds for Clark than as well in his senior year.

 

[HawkMD]

Ramos was clearly better in neutral and I think he was good enough on bottom to neutralize Clark's strength. But, in March, I would have it as a toss up. Clark turned it on in March when it counted most. Reminded me a lot like Jaggers from tOSU.

If 100% healthy McDonough was the best of the group. He maximized his size advantage and only fell to a 165lb(minus a leg) freak of nature.

Clark's got the moves like Jagger.

 

[IAChief32]

Clark was the shit when the lights were on and when he had seen a guy once or twice. Given another match, he beats both Garrett and Brewer.

 

[lookleft goright]

Same logic holds for Clark than as well in his senior year.

I do not know the extent of either guys injuries. It seemed like McD was totally hampered by his injuries. Clark did not seem so hampered. Maybe Clark is mentally tougher or maybe the injuries were not as severe.

If you look at Clark's sophomore year. He took second, but at least 3 different guys if not 4 would likely have beaten him that year. I get the years mixed up. Garrett, Dardanes, Richards, Brewer, Schopp, Richards, Delgado, Megaludis who else beat him in his career. I always thought he was the epitome of what a wrestler should be. It just always blew my mind when he got beat.

Going by memory here, so please forgive if I am a bit off. I purposely left off his senior year out of respect for Iachief and his wishes.

 

[sstark46]

MCD lost to only 3, I think. Precin, Robles, and Escobedo, with the exception of his senior year

He also lost to Delgado in the dual his junior year

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I do not know the extent of either guys injuries. It seemed like McD was totally hampered by his injuries. Clark did not seem so hampered. Maybe Clark is mentally tougher or maybe the injuries were not as severe.

If you look at Clark's sophomore year. He took second, but at least 3 different guys if not 4 would likely have beaten him that year. I get the years mixed up. Garrett, Dardanes, Richards, Brewer, Schopp, Richards, Delgado, Megaludis who else beat him in his career. I always thought he was the epitome of what a wrestler should be. It just always blew my mind when he got beat.

Going by memory here, so please forgive if I am a bit off. I purposely left off his senior year out of respect for Iachief and his wishes.

McD was far more limited by his injuries than Clark was, IMO. Matt had almost no ability to brace himself with one arm, which took away his ability to suck in the leg on his shots and killed him in the bottom position. As a result, he struggled to finish takedowns that he would normally finish with ease, and it allowed opponents who had no business riding him to ride him effectively. In folkstyle, that's a killer.

I don't mean to minimize Cory's injuries, which were substantial and made his title run all the more impressive (not to mention how tough his bracket was), but fortunately, he was able to adapt to them and still be effective. Matt's injuries pretty much took away what he did best. But like a true winner, he just fought like heck anyway and never used his injury as an excuse. Similarly, Cory almost never talked about his injuries and only did speak of them when asked specifically about them.

As for guys likely beating Cory his sophomore year, I don't think that claim can really be made with much legitimacy. He was always tougher to beat after seeing a guy once before, and he was always better on the big stage.

 

[Gobblin]

Clark had Matt on the ropes when they wrestled off Clark's freshman year. Clark gave up a reversal with about 30 seconds left to lose by 1. There's a chance McD may not have been 100% but you knew Clark was going to be a good one.

I was 10 feet away sitting Indian style on the mat watching that match, chewing my nails, and thinking about how happy I was that I wasn't the referee they brought in that day....

 

[LaxHawk174]

I was 10 feet away sitting Indian style on the mat watching that match, chewing my nails, and thinking about how happy I was that I wasn't the referee they brought in that day....

So you're saying you've reffed Iowa wrestle offs before?

 

[IAChief32]

I do not know the extent of either guys injuries. It seemed like McD was totally hampered by his injuries. Clark did not seem so hampered. Maybe Clark is mentally tougher or maybe the injuries were not as severe.

If you look at Clark's sophomore year. He took second, but at least 3 different guys if not 4 would likely have beaten him that year. I get the years mixed up. Garrett, Dardanes, Richards, Brewer, Schopp, Richards, Delgado, Megaludis who else beat him in his career. I always thought he was the epitome of what a wrestler should be. It just always blew my mind when he got beat.

Going by memory here, so please forgive if I am a bit off. I purposely left off his senior year out of respect for Iachief and his wishes.

Four national tites in that group. As for his sophomore year, you don't know because Clark was at his best after seeing guys once. Even in his finals match against Brewer, it looked like he wasn going to get TF'd and he'd some very good in match adjustments to make it respectable. I think the only real "bad" loss he took was against JDJ. He lost to Guilbon as well. Came back to beat both of them plus Richards who you mentioned. He took Dardanes to OT at B1G. Nobody really owned Clark...never got pinned IIRC. I would put Tony in at 133 for a dual and Clark in at Nattys.

As for the injury, he had his shoulder pulled out of his socket twice in a season and still won probably the toughest run (besides 08 Metcalf) of any recent Hawk. I think TnT learned a lot from McDs situation and this helped with Clark.

 

[IAChief32]

McD was far more limited by his injuries than Clark was, IMO. Matt had almost no ability to brace himself with one arm, which took away his ability to suck in the leg on his shots and killed him in the bottom position. As a result, he struggled to finish takedowns that he would normally finish with ease, and it allowed opponents who had no business riding him to ride him effectively. In folkstyle, that's a killer.

I don't mean to minimize Cory's injuries, which were substantial and made his title run all the more impressive (not to mention how tough his bracket was), but fortunately, he was able to adapt to them and still be effective. Matt's injuries pretty much took away what he did best. But like a true winner, he just fought like heck anyway and never used his injury as an excuse. Similarly, Cory almost never talked about his injuries and only did speak of them when asked specifically about them.

As for guys likely beating Cory his sophomore year, I don't think that claim can really be made with much legitimacy. He was always tougher to beat after seeing a guy once before, and he was always better on the big stage.

McD's outside single was his trademark...he could almost be bellied out underneath a sprawl and still pull it in and finish. He didn't have the repertoire to adjust on his feet. Clark did as his bread and butter was the Russian to a drop down single...but he could only attack it from one side. I think both Clarks shoulder and torn tendons in his wrist would have ended the season for most guys.

 

[Gobblin]

So you're saying you've reffed Iowa wrestle offs before?

Didn't mean it that way... Maybe I phrased it wrong. I have shared many a brewski with the ref that day if that helps...; )

 

[The Vak]

Four national tites in that group. As for his sophomore year, you don't know because Clark was at his best after seeing guys once. Even in his finals match against Brewer, it looked like he wasn going to get TF'd and he'd some very good in match adjustments to make it respectable. I think the only real "bad" loss he took was against JDJ. He lost to Guilbon as well. Came back to beat both of them plus Richards who you mentioned. He took Dardanes to OT at B1G. Nobody really owned Clark...never got pinned IIRC. I would put Tony in at 133 for a dual and Clark in at Nattys.

As for the injury, he had his shoulder pulled out of his socket twice in a season and still won probably the toughest run (besides 08 Metcalf) of any recent Hawk. I think TnT learned a lot from McDs situation and this helped with Clark.

I think you're underselling Ramos' NCAA performances a bit. He had the R12 as very small 133, and then obviously went 3, 2, 1 with his only losses at NCAAs being to Logan Stieber.