Two Tulsa police officers shot during traffic stop

[torbee]

Wow, that's all you ever said. Well you did in fact say that, sandwiched in between a LOT of hyper-charged criticisms. Just one:

There were multiple officers on scene - they should have physically subdued him even at risk to their own personal safety because that is part of the job. They did not. They failed. They lost control of the situation and now a city is on fire because they suck at their job.

After your comment about "poor police work" you went straight back to vilifying cops including THREE posts about them being pussified, such as this:

Yes they should. That is the job. Why do you support the pussification of law enforcement?

Jacob Blake has done this before

People on this site will say it doesn’t matter, but Jacob Blake, the black man from Kenosha, has had his run ins with police before involving a gun as he threatened people at a bar. In this incident he also refused to comply with police despite cops pointing guns at him and he was armed with...

iowa.forums.rivals.com

Btw, not trying for a "gotcha moment" here. I find that stuff petty and futile anyway. But still ... something ain't jivin'.

It’s poor police work. I have been very consistent in that. Me saying they suck at their job isn’t outrage - it’s stating a fact.

 

[Urohawk]

Oh horseshit.

Show us a video of a black dude doing exactly what this white Dude did and no one would have an issue.

I cry foul. Jacob Blake was tasered once. Did not comply with officers. Said he had a knife and we can assume the cops knew he was carrying it. Then he reaches into his car. Look at the response from the public to one which is now part of the BLM movement and the other which no one heard about.

 

[iahawks10]

Wow, that's all you ever said. Well you did in fact say that, sandwiched in between a LOT of hyper-charged criticisms. Just one:

There were multiple officers on scene - they should have physically subdued him even at risk to their own personal safety because that is part of the job. They did not. They failed. They lost control of the situation and now a city is on fire because they suck at their job.

After your comment about "poor police work" you went straight back to vilifying cops including THREE posts about them being pussified, such as this:

Yes they should. That is the job. Why do you support the pussification of law enforcement?

Jacob Blake has done this before

People on this site will say it doesn’t matter, but Jacob Blake, the black man from Kenosha, has had his run ins with police before involving a gun as he threatened people at a bar. In this incident he also refused to comply with police despite cops pointing guns at him and he was armed with...

iowa.forums.rivals.com

Btw, not trying for a "gotcha moment" here. I find that stuff petty and futile anyway. But still ... something ain't jivin'.

Making Torbee nostalgic.

 

[torbee]

Making Torbee nostalgic.

I stand 100 percent behind every post I made in that thread.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

It’s poor police work. I have been very consistent in that. Me saying they suck at their job isn’t outrage - it’s stating a fact.

Umm, no .... it's NOT a fact.

How about the multiple pussification comments? Are those also facts.

 

[torbee]

Umm, no .... it's NOT a fact.

How about the multiple pussification comments? Are those also facts.

First half is a fact. It is a failure to resolve a situation by fatally shooting a non-felony offender in the back who was unarmed.

Second half is my opinion. I think cops used to be much more willing to put their safety at risk than they are now. This isn’t an indictment on individuals - it is a societal shift.

 

[LunchBox50]

Very telling that you are hearing next to nothing about this story by the major news media.

Tulsa Police Sergeant, One of Two Officers Shot During Traffic Stop, Dies (Published 2020)

David Anthony Ware was charged with first-degree murder in the death of Sgt. Craig Johnson, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

Police release footage of fatal shooting of Tulsa police officer

Oklahoma police have released footage showing two Tulsa cops being shot during a June traffic stop, leaving one dead and the other critically injured. District Judge William Musseman ordered the ed…

nypost.com

Oklahoma police officer dies after traffic stop shooting | CNN

A Tulsa, Oklahoma, police officer, Sgt. Craig Johnson, has died and another is in critical condition after they were shot during a traffic stop early Monday, police said. A suspect has been arrested.

www.cnn.com

Veteran Oklahoma police officer killed, rookie in critical condition, after suspect shoots both in the head

David Anthony Ware is charged with first-degree murder and other charges. Ware's accomplice Matthew Hall was charged with accessory to a felony.

abcnews.go.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tulsa-man-accused-of-killing-officer-will-face-trial/2020/09/03/fb2bd6c4-ee30-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html

Craig Johnson: Oklahoma police officer dies after traffic stop shooting

Sgt. Craig Johnson dies after being shot in the line of duty

Sgt. Craig Johnson dies after being shot in the line of duty

news.yahoo.com

 

[torbee]

Tulsa Police Sergeant, One of Two Officers Shot During Traffic Stop, Dies (Published 2020)

David Anthony Ware was charged with first-degree murder in the death of Sgt. Craig Johnson, the authorities said.

www.nytimes.com

Police release footage of fatal shooting of Tulsa police officer

Oklahoma police have released footage showing two Tulsa cops being shot during a June traffic stop, leaving one dead and the other critically injured. District Judge William Musseman ordered the ed…

nypost.com

Oklahoma police officer dies after traffic stop shooting | CNN

A Tulsa, Oklahoma, police officer, Sgt. Craig Johnson, has died and another is in critical condition after they were shot during a traffic stop early Monday, police said. A suspect has been arrested.

www.cnn.com

Veteran Oklahoma police officer killed, rookie in critical condition, after suspect shoots both in the head

David Anthony Ware is charged with first-degree murder and other charges. Ware's accomplice Matthew Hall was charged with accessory to a felony.

abcnews.go.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tulsa-man-accused-of-killing-officer-will-face-trial/2020/09/03/fb2bd6c4-ee30-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html

Craig Johnson: Oklahoma police officer dies after traffic stop shooting

Sgt. Craig Johnson dies after being shot in the line of duty

Sgt. Craig Johnson dies after being shot in the line of duty

news.yahoo.com

BUTT DER MANESTREEM MEDIA DONT RUN DESE STERIES!!! Derp

 

[LunchBox50]

BUTT DER MANESTREEM MEDIA DONT RUN DESE STERIES!!! Derp

It's a claim that gets tossed around on here whenever stories like these are posted and it takes literally 10 seconds to prove they're just being lazy or lying.

 

[SoonerBeAHawk]

First half is a fact. It is a failure to resolve a situation by fatally shooting a non-felony offender in the back who was unarmed.

Second half is my opinion. I think cops used to be much more willing to put their safety at risk than they are now. This isn’t an indictment on individuals - it is a societal shift.

What set you off in the earlier thread was cops being "judge, jury, and executioner." Acting way too swiftly and well outside their parameters. That's legitimate.

So why don't you then let the judge, lawyers, and jury try this case before making your grandiose pronouncements of fact?

Regarding the second thing you responded to a poster "We will mark you down as another in favor of the pussification of policing in America."

You're clearly at odds with this alleged pussification of the police, despite now trying to minimize it as the fault of a "societal shift."

 

[denmar81]

Dog wouldn't have saved his life.

We seem to be putting criminals rights over everyone else.

I disagree, I think the majority would do what officers ask if the ultimatum is a dog going apeshit on them. I’d take a dozen tazes before I’d take a dog ripping me apart.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

I disagree, I think the majority would do what officers ask if the ultimatum is a dog going apeshit on them. I’d take a dozen tazes before I’d take a dog ripping me apart.

But you're not nuts.
I don't think

 

[Fijimn]

It's a claim that gets tossed around on here whenever stories like these are posted and it takes literally 10 seconds to prove they're just being lazy or lying.

Strangely, it the same posters that claim they don't read or watch the news or the media.

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

Very telling that you are hearing next to nothing about this story by the major news media.

Most of them you don't sadly. The media just wants to fuel the rage fire

 

[LunchBox50]

Most of them you don't sadly. The media just wants to fuel the rage fire

Tell us specifically which “mainstream media” outlets have completely ignored this killing. I’ve already posted links for NYT, WaPo, ABC, CNN and Yahoo. This should be easy since “most of them” have allegedly ignored this.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Welcome to America in 2020. Just another member of the well-regulated militia. Thanks, NRA. RIP, Officer 🙁

 

[GOHOX69]

That's is why I tell anyone that will listen to do what the officer says. After the fact if the officers broke the law or your constitutional right then you can complain and sue. This way everyone goes home alive.

What if said suspect is paralyzed for life? Can they still complain?

 

[Hawkman98]

What if said suspect is paralyzed for life? Can they still complain?

Can he talk or write? If so, yes.

 

[GOHOX69]

Can he talk or write? If so, yes.

What if he's a quadriplegic and uses a puffer? What if he's dead like Eric Shaw in Iowa City who was shot using his phone because the cop confused that with a gun? In his own place of business without probable cause or a warrant?

 

[GOHOX69]

Can he talk or write? If so, yes.

Should we cripple the cops and then they can complain?

 

[Hawkman98]

Should we cripple the cops and then they can complain?

Unfortunately these cops can't complain. It appears you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I get it, you don't like cops, move on. We all can't be as perfect as you would be in these situations.

 

[GOHOX69]

Unfortunately these cops can't complain. It appears you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. I get it, you don't like cops, move on. We all can't be as perfect as you would be in these situations.

Actually I feel bad for all law enforcement that get killed. That being said I think your profession has a major problem with dirt bags that are otherwise sullying what you're lawfully trying to do. It's up to your profession and it's unions to stop defending the dirt bags in your profession and purge them. It might also behoove some of you to leave your cruisers and suvs and actually interact with community members especially those who are minorities and in high crime neighborhoods. Till then, I am circumspect.

 

[Hawkman98]

Actually I feel bad for all law enforcement that get killed. That being said I think your profession has a major problem with dirt bags that are otherwise sullying what you're lawfully trying to do. It's up to your profession and it's unions to stop defending the dirt bags in your profession and purge them. It might also behoove some of you to leave your cruisers and suvs and actually interact with community members especially those who are minorities and in high crime neighborhoods. Till then, I am circumspect.

Again, you are putting law enforcement in a box and labeling us all the same. The amount of contacts law enforcement have on a daily basis and very few result in misconduct or complaints. The majority in law enforcement are trying to do good, but most want to just focus on high profile issues. It's a difficult job and I encourage all of those that are interested to apply and help change the profession.

 

[hexumhawk]

It's a claim that gets tossed around on here whenever stories like these are posted and it takes literally 10 seconds to prove they're just being lazy or lying.

Of course though you have to understand the nuance that is involved. Of course the story will run, of course they will talk about it for that news cycle. The difference is they wont make it a point to continue the story and fan the flames day after day. First things first, you have to be objective to be able to see that though.

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

It might also behoove some of you to leave your cruisers and suvs and actually interact with community members especially those who are minorities and in high crime neighborhoods. Till then, I am circumspect.

That’s an amazing idea! Community oriented policing! What if police departments bought bicycles and patrolled hot spots in their cities? What if police departments did foot patrols in such areas where they could meet and greet the public? What if police departments held public forums where members of the community could attend and voice their concerns? What if citizen review boards were put into place? What if police departments involved themselves in local rec sports leagues for softball, basketball and volleyball? What if police departments sponsored holiday activities for the public to fundraise and endorse goodwill? What if police departments held food drives to aid underprivileged people? Etc, etc, etc. You’re really something here!

 

[GOHOX69]

That’s an amazing idea! Community oriented policing! What if police departments bought bicycles and patrolled hot spots in their cities? What if police departments did foot patrols in such areas where they could meet and greet the public? What if police departments held public forums where members of the community could attend and voice their concerns? What if citizen review boards were put into place? What if police departments involved themselves in local rec sports leagues for softball, basketball and volleyball? What if police departments sponsored holiday activities for the public to fundraise and endorse goodwill? What if police departments held food drives to aid underprivileged people? Etc, etc, etc. You’re really something here!

Gee thanks. Yet you haven't refuted a single point. Awesome post.

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

Gee thanks. Yet you haven't refuted a single point. Awesome post.

It sure seems like LEOs make efforts to “leave their cruisers and interact with the community” to me.

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

Here is the full video.

 

[GOHOX69]

It sure seems like LEOs make efforts to “leave their cruisers and interact with the community” to me.

During traffic stops, sure. Otherwise, no. Community policing is dead and you know it. Most minorities resent the police and view them antagonistically. The only solace I take from this shooting is that it was white on white crime. Otherwise, more minorities would be killed. You know in police "errors."

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

During traffic stops, sure. Otherwise, no. Community policing is dead and you know it.

What I know is that almost everything I mentioned is alive and well in my community regarding law enforcement and community interaction. Have a nice day! 😂

 

[torbee]

Here is the full video.

View embedded media

Question for @Hawkman98 — I am curious why the officer approached the passenger side window at first rather than driver side. It didn’t look like a busy roadway. What is the tactical purpose for that?

 

[Hawkman98]

Question for @Hawkman98 — I am curious why the officer approached the passenger side window at first rather than driver side. It didn’t look like a busy roadway. What is the tactical purpose for that?

Yes, that was most likely for a tactical purpose. I noticed he did that and made me think maybe he thought something was up or that he had prior information that caused him to try to be safer. Also, it's easier to walk/run back into the ditch instead of going into traffic and you have the suspect's car to provide some additional cover.

 

[torbee]

Yes, that was most likely for a tactical purpose. I noticed he did that and made me think maybe he thought something was up or that he had prior information that caused him to try to be safer. Also, it's easier to walk/run back into the ditch instead of going into traffic and you have the suspect's car to provide some additional cover.

From a layperson’s perspective, I thought they waited way too long to try to pull him out of the car. I get it is way, way better to have compliance rather than exert force, but the suspect was clearly never going to come out willingly IMO. What did you think about the timeline of escalation?

 

[Hawkman98]

From a layperson’s perspective, I thought they waited way too long to try to pull him out of the car. I get it is way, way better to have compliance rather than exert force, but the suspect was clearly never going to come out willingly IMO. What did you think about the timeline of escalation?

To be honest and I'm not just saying this because it's a convenient argument, but I can only assume they were concerned about how it would look and if they would get a complaint for going hands on. Because of everything that is going on we are now second guessing everything. We are wondering if we are going to make national news or if something that is normal procedure to us will look poorly to the public who might not fully understand why we do what we do.

I'll give you an example I've been struggling with how I currently would handle a situation. I pull someone over regardless of their race for speeding. I issue the ticket and the driver refuses to sign the ticket. In that situation, if the driver refuses to sign the ticket the other option is to place them under arrest. So lets say the driver refuses to sign the ticket, refuses to listen to commands and refuses to get out of the car. In today's world I think to myself is it worth dragging this person out of the vehicle, risk injuring them or myself, allow any kids in the car to see a fight, get a complaint against me or do something that I could get sued for. So do I let them just drive off and shrug my shoulders and say ok you get out of the ticket that a normal compliant person would get? I shouldn't have to second guess how to do my job, because as you can see in the video, seconds can cost someone their lives.

 

[torbee]

To be honest and I'm not just saying this because it's a convenient argument, but I can only assume they were concerned about how it would look and if they would get a complaint for going hands on. Because of everything that is going on we are now second guessing everything. We are wondering if we are going to make national news or if something that is normal procedure to us will look poorly to the public who might not fully understand why we do what we do.

I'll give you an example I've been struggling with how I currently would handle a situation. I pull someone over regardless of their race for speeding. I issue the ticket and the driver refuses to sign the ticket. In that situation, if the driver refuses to sign the ticket the other option is to place them under arrest. So lets say the driver refuses to sign the ticket, refuses to listen to commands and refuses to get out of the car. In today's world I think to myself is it worth dragging this person out of the vehicle, risk injuring them or myself, allow any kids in the car to see a fight, get a complaint against me or do something that I could get sued for. So do I let them just drive off and shrug my shoulders and say ok you get out of the ticket that a normal compliant person would get? I shouldn't have to second guess how to do my job, because as you can see in the video, seconds can cost someone their lives.

That’s a good point. If they don’t sign it, do they actually get out of it!?

Technically, all this suspect was being pulled over for was a driving violation - it seemed to me the main motivation for getting him out of the car was to search it for drugs/contraband, based on his past record. Is that enough for probable cause or would the reason be due to his nervousness and generally agitated behavior?

It also shocked me that the suspect was able to successfully locate, aim and fire his weapon so effectively with a face full of pepper spray. Freaking nuts, and super sad.

 

[iahawks10]

That’s an amazing idea! Community oriented policing! What if police departments bought bicycles and patrolled hot spots in their cities? What if police departments did foot patrols in such areas where they could meet and greet the public? What if police departments held public forums where members of the community could attend and voice their concerns? What if citizen review boards were put into place? What if police departments involved themselves in local rec sports leagues for softball, basketball and volleyball? What if police departments sponsored holiday activities for the public to fundraise and endorse goodwill? What if police departments held food drives to aid underprivileged people? Etc, etc, etc. You’re really something here!

Next you’ll want them doing torch runs for the special olympics and polar plunges.

 

[Hawkman98]

That’s a good point. If they don’t sign it, do they actually get out of it!?

Technically, all this suspect was being pulled over for was a driving violation - it seemed to me the main motivation for getting him out of the car was to search it for drugs/contraband, based on his past record. Is that enough for probable cause or would the reason be due to his nervousness and generally agitated behavior?

It also shocked me that the suspect was able to successfully locate, aim and fire his weapon so effectively with a face full of pepper spray. Freaking nuts, and super sad.

Yes, signing the ticket means one of two things. You'll show up to court to contest the charge or you will pay it. If they don't sign it they have no requirements to do either one of those.

No you can't pull someone out of their car to search because of their past criminal history. Even if he was nervous or agitated we can't force someone out of their car without probable cause. If they saw something illegal in plain view, smelled something or had reason to believe leaving him in the car would allow them to destroy evidence then you can.

To be honest I thought the cop went a little light on the pepper spray. If you're going to use it, you have to make sure you get enough of it on them to be effective. Also a PSA, when a cop yells at you to get your hands up and out of your pockets this is why. We are taught that hands are what will kill us, so if we can't see them, we get nervous.

 

[torbee]

Yes, signing the ticket means one of two things. You'll show up to court to contest the charge or you will pay it. If they don't sign it they have no requirements to do either one of those.

No you can't pull someone out of their car to search because of their past criminal history. Even if he was nervous or agitated we can't force someone out of their car without probable cause. If they saw something illegal in plain view, smelled something or had reason to believe leaving him in the car would allow them to destroy evidence then you can.

To be honest I thought the cop went a little light on the pepper spray. If you're going to use it, you have to make sure you get enough of it on them to be effective. Also a PSA, when a cop yells at you to get your hands up and out of your pockets this is why. We are taught that hands are what will kill us, so if we can't see them, we get nervous.

Thanks for answering. Old professional habit to ask questions. 😉

I know the dude was probably high, maybe mentally ill, etc. But I am always just floored at how he thought he might able to shoot two cops and get away with it. I mean, it all stemmed from him not wanting to go to jail. Now, he will probably die in one. Just so stupid and pathetic all the way around.

 

[Fluffles]

Going to disagree a bit here. A taser and/or OC are considered a higher use of force than just going hands on and yanking them out. The more plausible explanation for why they didn’t go immediately to hands on, is because they aren’t well trained in physical control to the extent they are with a taser and OC and there is less chance of injury with tools. It’s not wrong to give a suspect time to comply but after a few orders, it’s time to pull them out of the car. Never, under any circumstances, let them stay in the vehicle. (Can’t just shoot them though).

It’s also better to get them to step out before they realize they aren’t going to immediately be on their way or their car is going to get searched. Officer should not have mentioned narcotics to the suspect. Instead, simply telling them to step out of the car so you can talk to them—because it’s dangerous for you to stand in the road, usually works. In my state, the car can be searched for “inventory” since the driver didn’t have insurance or a license, and the officer was going to tow it. I’m not familiar with Oklahoma law, however. From a tactical perspective there were several errors in the video and I don’t believe it had to do with increased public scrutiny.

 

[Hawkman98]

Thanks for answering. Old professional habit to ask questions. 😉

I know the dude was probably high, maybe mentally ill, etc. But I am always just floored at how he thought he might able to shoot two cops and get away with it. I mean, it all stemmed from him not wanting to go to jail. Now, he will probably die in one. Just so stupid and pathetic all the way around.

You're welcome. I always appreciate good honest questions and appreciate a conversation that can be pleasant even if the people disagree.

I think about this often. The first thing we do is call in the license plate and most everyone has cameras, so the chance of someone getting away with murder is slim. It just goes to show how people don't think clearly. That is why Monday morning QB in police work is frustrating because the average person is thinking that the people we are dealing with are normal like them and many are not. I tell people that the majority of the public think everyone is like them. They wake up, go to work, come home and make supper, go to kids events, watch some TV and then go to bed. Those people have to realize not everyone does that and there are nut cases out there 24/7. Those are the ones that make this job so difficult.