What would a defense 1st starting lineup and rotation be like?

[David1979]

Yeah I don’t think we realistically can expect Keagan or Kris to guard a 7’4” Zach Edey or 7’ Kofi and maximize production.

To be fair. Most teams don't have bigs that can body up to those guys. Most teams either have to double or just say, he is going to get his but we can't let the 3 point shooters go off.
The best way to neutralize them is by playing fast and taking advantage of them on the other end of the court. Make them guard on the perimeter.

 

[David1979]

Dickenson is better than either of them and he struggled against a smaller team agressivly doubling him the other night.

So did Luka to an extent.

Its not quite the problem you guys think it is when you can effectively double and you gain allot in other ways by staying quicker.

Sure they're going to get it deep sometimes and score but thats worth the trade offs.

Theres also no way any of those 7fters can defend Keegan on the perimeter.

Its easier to isolate a slow big off the dribble than it is for that player to consistently score on the block against double teams.

This. I always go back to the game I watched a few years ago in the tournament, KU v Purdue. It was a close game until KU made an adjustment to make it so their bigs had to come out beyond the 3 point line to guard a high pick and roll. Then KU just steamrolled them because their giants couldn't keep up on the defensive end of the floor and they were forced to take them out but it was already game over. It was when they had Swanigan and Haas. I think KU ended up winning by almost 30. Always wondered why more Big Ten teams don't attack Purdue this way because they always have giants out there. Of course it helps to have great guards. But I am guessing you could run similar sets with Murray.

 

[KcTo]

This. I always go back to the game I watched a few years ago in the tournament, KU v Purdue. It was a close game until KU made an adjustment to make it so their bigs had to come out beyond the 3 point line to guard a high pick and roll. Then KU just steamrolled them because their giants couldn't keep up on the defensive end of the floor and they were forced to take them out but it was already game over. It was when they had Swanigan and Haas. I think KU ended up winning by almost 30. Always wondered why more Big Ten teams don't attack Purdue this way because they always have giants out there. Of course it helps to have great guards. But I am guessing you could run similar sets with Murray.

KU probably had NBA ready guards too…

but I get your point, the flip side being can those bigs be so efficient on the offensive side that it nets out as a positive ?

 

[KcTo]

i'd agree with you in theory but josh has held his own against a few of the best big men in the country. Which makes it silly he doesn't get a chance in other games.
Anytime pmac or anyone else cherry picks and we give up an offensive rebound they should be done for the game. it can be his new 2 foul rule .

Ogundele now has and highest PER on team, behind Keegan, although in SSS…..

 

[KcTo]

What would happen if Fran played his best defensive lineup more, but still ran up tempo?
What if that lineup went: Murray, Murray, Ogundele, Perkins and JoeT?

Rim protectors? Check. Rebounders? Check. Perimeter defense? Check. Scorers? Murrays and Perkins, check. Over all Defense. Double check.

Fran can still get Jobo 8-10 3pt FGA, by playing when a Murray and Perkins is out, Ogundele isn’t going to play 30 min, so there is plenty of minutes for P Mac and Rebraca at the 4-5 spots.

This sort of team won’t give up 45 1h points to #330 ranked team or give up 56 1H points and 56% shooting in 2nd round of the NCAA.

IOWAs Win over Purdue 1st game that Perk an Ogundele get > 10min ea and more mins than PMaC and CMac, 36 to 29.
adding Rebraca min and is 36 to 39 (with Rebraca)

the signal here is adding minutes from these 2 plus defenders and moderately efficient scorers, while subtracting from poor defenders and you see the result, IOWA with their best win holding a top 5 KenPom offensive team to only 65 points.

plus, now adding more minutes from a near Elite 3 point and scorer like Sandfort, to the clearly above avg defensive efforts from Ogundele and the overall game of Perkins, gives you the expected results from this defensive lineup (with the unexpected instant offense from Sandfort)

talking head Andy Katz goes out of his way to praise Ogundele Monday saying that Ogundele gives productive minutes vs Purdue and a clear defensive piece to be used to fill the acknowledged defensive gap in the paint.

Maximizing the minutes of these 4 (Murray 2x, perk, Ogundele) will be a key to improved defense vs the elite teams they will face and an acknowledged drawback of Frans Teams of the past.

I hope the Purdue win will convince Fran of this too….

 

[perryhawk]

IOWAs Win over Purdue 1st game that Perk an Ogundele get > 10min ea and more mins than PMaC and CMac, 36 to 29.
adding Rebraca min and is 36 to 39 (with Rebraca)

the signal here is adding minutes from these 2 plus defenders and moderately efficient scorers, while subtracting from poor defenders and you see the result, IOWA with their best win holding a top 5 KenPom offensive team to only 65 points.

plus, now adding more minutes from a near Elite 3 point and scorer like Sandfort, to the clearly above avg defensive efforts from Ogundele and the overall game of Perkins, gives you the expected results from this defensive lineup (with the unexpected instant offense from Sandfort)

talking head Andy Katz goes out of his way to praise Ogundele Monday saying that Ogundele gives productive minutes vs Purdue and a clear defensive piece to be used to fill the acknowledged defensive gap in the paint.

Maximizing the minutes of these 4 (Murray 2x, perk, Ogundele) will be a key to improved defense vs the elite teams they will face and an acknowledged drawback of Frans Teams of the past.

I hope the Purdue win will convince Fran of this too….

That seems to be a stretch....an effort to search for evidence to support your conclusion.

It seems to me, that this win over Purdue was a complete TEAM win. Perkins and Josh O made big plays that contributed to the win.....as did Cmac & Pmac & Sandfort & Joe T & Keegan etc etc.

Fran has done an excellent job with the lineup and rotations.....we've won 26 games already this year along with winning the B10 Tournament.

Fran knows what he's doing.

 

[KcTo]

That seems to be a stretch....an effort to search for evidence to support your conclusion.

It seems to me, that this win over Purdue was a complete TEAM win. Perkins and Josh O made big plays that contributed to the win.....as did Cmac & Pmac & Sandfort & Joe T & Keegan etc etc.

Fran has done an excellent job with the lineup and rotations.....we've won 26 games already this year along with winning the B10 Tournament.

Fran knows what he's doing.

What is the stretch in watching Rebraca vs Ogundele defend elite bigs like Eddy and Williams?

nobody is arguing this wants a team win, rather, that playing superior defenders more, and poor defenders less, results in a better defensive outcomes ie: holding KenPom top 5 offensive team to 65.

 

[perryhawk]

Rebraca played 12 minutes....v Josh O's 10 minutes....

IOWAs Win over Purdue 1st game that Perk an Ogundele get > 10min ea and more mins than PMaC and CMac, 36 to 29.
adding Rebraca min and is 36 to 39 (with Rebraca)

the signal here is adding minutes from these 2 plus defenders and moderately efficient scorers, while subtracting from poor defenders and you see the result, IOWA with their best win holding a top 5 KenPom offensive team to only 65 points.

I hope the Purdue win will convince Fran of this too….

You changed your premise from the original post to the response.....bottom line is that this win over Purdue will reinforce Fran's use of his lineup THE WAY HE SEE'S FIT....because that is what has provided this team with the ability to go on this winning streak, not just the one game.

Fran knows what he's doing.

 

[KcTo]

Rebraca played 12 minutes....v Josh O's 10 minutes....

IOWAs Win over Purdue 1st game that Perk an Ogundele get > 10min ea and more mins than PMaC and CMac, 36 to 29.
adding Rebraca min and is 36 to 39 (with Rebraca)

the signal here is adding minutes from these 2 plus defenders and moderately efficient scorers, while subtracting from poor defenders and you see the result, IOWA with their best win holding a top 5 KenPom offensive team to only 65 points.

I hope the Purdue win will convince Fran of this too….

You changed your premise from the original post to the response.....bottom line is that this win over Purdue will reinforce Fran's use of his lineup THE WAY HE SEE'S FIT....because that is what has provided this team with the ability to go on this winning streak, not just the one game.

Fran knows what he's doing.

huh? How So Was it changed?

this is IOWAs best win of the year and it came rather handily with a radically different use of players minutes, with defensive players over offensive players. agree?

 

[perryhawk]

huh? How So Was it changed?

this is IOWAs best win of the year and it came rather handily with a radically different use of players minutes, with defensive players over offensive players. agree?

I don't agree....there wasn't a "radically different" use of players. Fran substituted Josh and Riley due to foul trouble while facing a 7' 4" guy on the inside, and for a time against the 6' 9" guy....that was the only difference and it was driven by foul trouble. He has used that tactic previously against Kofi......which unfortunately did not result in a win.

Then in your original post you mentioned Perkins and Josh O......Perkins has been in the starting lineup for a month or more now....then in your response you switch to Rebraca v Josh O (no mention of Perkins)...

I may be wrong here...but in your original post you seem to put Cmac and Pmac in the negative, like you're advocating for reduced playing time for them. Both were VERY important contributors to that win.

That said, you have a right to your view and I respect that...I just disagree. I don't think you are intentionally playing games, but your position seems to me to be disjointed and not well founded.

 

[mikesright]

I think its really important to understand a bit of context about why substituting Josh O and Riley Mulvey ended up being a good deal for Iowa, especially with Edey. First of all, Edey is not a perimeter threat, at all. You don't have to defend him anywhere on the court besides for the post, so they can ignore him defensively if he goes up there. Secondly, Purdue does not have wings with good athleticism either. It puts a lot less pressure on Iowa to try to have to switch everything to avoid dribble drives to the basket.

While I was thrilled that they provided us good minutes, perspective is needed that in both cases, they need to improve their overall games to be able to matchup effectively with the best big men in the game and to be able to be a positive contributor when facing teams playing an athletic but undersized center.

 

[KcTo]

I don't agree....there wasn't a "radically different" use of players. Fran substituted Josh and Riley due to foul trouble while facing a 7' 4" guy on the inside, and for a time against the 6' 9" guy....that was the only difference and it was driven by foul trouble. He has used that tactic previously against Kofi......which unfortunately did not result in a win.

Then in your original post you mentioned Perkins and Josh O......Perkins has been in the starting lineup for a month or more now....then in your response you switch to Rebraca v Josh O (no mention of Perkins)...

I may be wrong here...but in your original post you seem to put Cmac and Pmac in the negative, like you're advocating for reduced playing time for them. Both were VERY important contributors to that win.

That said, you have a right to your view and I respect that...I just disagree. I don't think you are intentionally playing games, but your position seems to me to be disjointed and not well founded.

TY for sharing your perspective as it helps me understand.

my original premise, in Nov, link attachEd, was that a lineup of Murrays, Perk, Ogundele, and a PG, would optimize defesne, while still brining substantial offense and offeensive efficiency.

as you accurately point out, Perkins has been added, and since then iowa is 12-2 (or close to that) what is unnoticed is that PMac was averaging +30m/game in the 5 games preceding, and since then has onky had 3 games over >25, and is trending down, with closer to 20 the last 8.

in these objective data points, we can begin to correlate more Perkins and less PMac … more defesne, rebounding and more wins. (But there is more)

in the original premise Ogundele was suggested over Rebraca to start, as Ogundele brings raw skill set that rebraca will never possess, Size and Weight, he can’t be backed down, he can contest elite bigs in a way that Rebraca can not.

the other benefits are that a combo of Ogundele and Rebraca will keep the Murray’s out of exposure to fouls and optimize their minutes. Imagine a game where kris Murray gets 30 minutes ( how about his 29 point game?]

imagine Keegan getting 25 ans kris getting 20 each ncaa game, while bri going their plus Box score stuffing skills?

then imagine, once in bonus you can sit Ogundele and play more of rebraca or PMac For foul shooting?

maximizing defesnse and rebounding , protecting Murray’s, maximizing Murray’s playing time?

perkins and Sandfort can play #2 spot

jobo and Connor can play PG.

This has always been my premise, defense, rebounding , paint protection 1st

purdue was the 1st time we saw the combo of Ogundele and perkins with more minutes than PMac and CMac , and the result was the best win of the season.

although Iowa has been able to out perform this inside drawback and Murray’s foul trouble, there will come a game in the NCAA that Iowa will not be able too, let’s hope Fran recognizes this with out having to resort to “only use in case of emergency” ( like at Purdue game)

 

[perryhawk]

You bring up some interesting points for discussion, some I agree with.

I think/am guessing, that Pmac's reduced minutes recently is related to the fact that he had an injury that limited playing time and that was followed shortly by an illness that limited playing time.

I don't see Pmac and Perkins as being one or the other..two different positions. That may not be what you are suggesting...but you are just correlating minutes v team wins, etc.

I think that Perkins and Patrick contribute to the defensive success as they are both long and athletic players that create defensive pressure (Pmac is pretty good in the press) and that also contribute offensively as they both run the court really well.

I can see where Josh and/or Riley could help protect the Murray's from fouls, however both Murray's along with Patrick on the front line create that lengthy, bouncy, athleticism that is effective on both offense and defense. The problem in that lineup is facing the Effy/Kofi type players...where situational substitutions work.

 

[KcTo]

I think its really important to understand a bit of context about why substituting Josh O and Riley Mulvey ended up being a good deal for Iowa, especially with Edey. First of all, Edey is not a perimeter threat, at all. You don't have to defend him anywhere on the court besides for the post, so they can ignore him defensively if he goes up there. Secondly, Purdue does not have wings with good athleticism either. It puts a lot less pressure on Iowa to try to have to switch everything to avoid dribble drives to the basket.

While I was thrilled that they provided us good minutes, perspective is needed that in both cases, they need to improve their overall games to be able to matchup effectively with the best big men in the game and to be able to be a positive contributor when facing teams playing an athletic but undersized center.

Good points and thank you for those.

in terms of undersized athletic centers, IOWA has Kris Murray to play against undersized athletic guys, so, that’s not the stated concern of the TV talking heads, it is that IOWA doesn’t have a paint presence vs teams with elite bigs. Andy Katz just talked about that today, then went on to mini gush about ogundele providing productive minutes on both ends of the court.

conversely, if an opponent does have an undersized C, well then they would have to stop Ogundele raw power moves to the rim, potentially getting themselves in foul trouble. Ogundele did score with 2 power moves to the rim so there is a demonstrable and repeatable skill set to be dealt with.

josh clearly has BB IQ to develop an isnt ready to play extended minutes, but has some elite skills, like size and raw power with a modicum of athleticism, so in 2-3 minutes stretches, when IOWA is not in the bonus i think Iowa would excel when combined with Murray’s and Perkins

 

[farina1]

Ulis
Perkins
Connor
Murray
Murray or Rebraca

Not having Joe T. in the top five reflects that you either forgot about him, or are totally clueless when it comes to the sport of basketball.

 

[HawkLogic]

DI think its really important to understand a bit of context about why substituting Josh O and Riley Mulvey ended up being a good deal for Iowa, especially with Edey. First of all, Edey is not a perimeter threat, at all. You don't have to defend him anywhere on the court besides for the post, so they can ignore him defensively if he goes up there. Secondly, Purdue does not have wings with good athleticism either. It puts a lot less pressure on Iowa to try to have to switch everything to avoid dribble drives to the basket.

While I was thrilled that they provided us good minutes, perspective is needed that in both cases, they need to improve their overall games to be able to matchup effectively with the best big men in the game and to be able to be a positive contributor when facing teams playing an athletic but undersized center.

The context is none of the stud centers in B1G this year had a perimeter offensive game. Dickinson, Cockburn , Edey/Williams, or TJD. Rebraca didn't match up well defensivley with any of them....dickenson and Edey too tall, Cockburn and Wiliams too thick/strong, and TJD too quick.

WE already have a small ball center..... Kris Murray....Kris has athleticism to at least contest shots for most of the B1G centers...he needs help, but he can do better job than Rebraca, plus Kris has a lot better offensive game. Big issue is Kris is foul prone if he is guarding post.

Next year...I think Mulvey/JoshO will end up sharing the post position because because we are losing Keegan and won't have any depth at the PF with only Kris/Rebracca...that assumes Kris comes back. Kris could make money playing g-league if he chooses.

 

[Lighting Hawk]

Not having Joe T. in the top five reflects that you either forgot about him, or are totally clueless when it comes to the sport of basketball.

You do realize this was in November… and at the time Joe wasn’t playing decisively better than Ulis, they were pretty close. I gambled on Ulis thinking he’d develop more throughout the next 3.5 months, in this take. In no way would I stick with this lineup. Over the last 5-6 weeks and probably longer, a defense first lineup for me looks like;

Joe T
Perkins
CMac
Keegan
Kris