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Who won the Walz v Vance debate?

Who won?

  • Walz

    Votes: 47 25.0%

  • Vance

    Votes: 92 48.9%

  • Basically a tie

    Votes: 49 26.1%
  • Total voters
    188
binsfeldcyhawk2 said:
Might be because Walz hasn't done interviews since he was nominated for VP.

Avoiding the press has consequences apparently.

Vance has been on the Sunday morning talk shows and actually talks to the press on the campaign trail.
Click to expand...
Vance had a much more polished performance, but he seems to be a guy that changes his opinions based on the audience to whom he is speaking, The is video evidence being for an abortion ban, saying he's still going to call Haitian immigrants illegals even though they have legal status, he thinks the votes of people with children should count more than those without, etc.

For those of us old enough to remember, Vance is a real life Eddie Haskell.
 
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goldmom said:
Personal life is personal but those making assertions about Chis aren’t being “shot down” with rebuttals by Chis himself.
While we don’t know what or how much is factual I bet many of us would defend ourselves pretty robustly if the things that are posted aren’t at least partially based on facts.
I hope the man is okay and is at least talking to someone who can help him have brighter days.
Click to expand...
I know who he is. the DUI stories are 100% true. never heard anything about being a wife beater and would doubt that is true
 
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Anyone in the military knows what rank they are, correct?

And they know the rank at which they retired, correct?

Didn't Walz lie about his military rank recently? And if so, that is not something you want to lie about, obviously. ANYONE associated with the military would tell you that.
 
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gohawks50 said:
Vance had a much more polished performance, but he seems to be a guy that changes his opinions based on the audience to whom he is speaking, The is video evidence being for an abortion ban, saying he's still going to call Haitian immigrants illegals even though they have legal status, he thinks the votes of people with children should count more than those without, etc.

For those of us old enough to remember, Vance is a real life Eddie Haskell.
Click to expand...
And Harris doesn’t change her positions ?😂😂😂😂😳😳😳😳
 
Franisdaman said:
Anyone in the military knows what rank they are, correct?

And they know the rank at which they retired, correct?

Didn't Walz lie about his military rank recently? And if so, that is not something you want to lie about, obviously. ANYONE associated with the military would tell you that.
Click to expand...
He has been pretty clear on that. That you want to go after it, honestly who cares. Is Vance still worried about the Cats and dogs? What about all the Cat ladies. What about total abortion ban? I can continue this banter if you wish.
 
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Franisdaman said:
Anyone in the military knows what rank they are, correct?

And they know the rank at which they retired, correct?

Didn't Walz lie about his military rank recently? And if so, that is not something you want to lie about, obviously. ANYONE associated with the military would tell you that.
Click to expand...
He retired with one rank, which was later changed down one level because he hadn’t completed all the required work to make the rank permanent.

To me, it’s not the biggest controversy I’ve ever heard of. I’d be more upset if he’d claimed to have a rank he’d never held at all.
 
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Scruddy said:
View embedded media


Walz also lied and tried to claim the CBP one app laws have been around since the 90s. The left just doesn't want the masses to understand that those "legal" migrants are "legal" due to this nonsense that originated with the harris-biden administration.
Click to expand...
So they are legal. Got it. Thanks for clarifying that. Good job!
 
sober_teacher said:
He retired with one rank, which was later changed down one level because he hadn’t completed all the required work to make the rank permanent.

To me, it’s not the biggest controversy I’ve ever heard of. I’d be more upset if he’d claimed to have a rank he’d never held at all.
Click to expand...


Walz also didn’t serve in a combat zone even though he said this: “We can make sure that those weapons of war, that I carried in war, is the only place where those weapons are at.”


apnews.com

Here's a look at questions about Tim Walz's military record

Republicans are questioning Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz’s characterization of his time in uniform and his departure from military service.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
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Scruddy said:
View embedded media


Walz also lied and tried to claim the CBP one app laws have been around since the 90s. The left just doesn't want the masses to understand that those "legal" migrants are "legal" due to this nonsense that originated with the harris-biden administration.
Click to expand...
The CBP one app was launched in October of 2020, guess who was President? I'll give you a hint it wasn't Biden or Harris.

On October 28, 2020, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) launched the FREE CBP One™ mobile application on the Apple App and Google Play stores.

CBP One™ is a mobile application that serves as a single portal to a variety of CBP services. Through a series of guided questions, the app directs each type of user to the appropriate services based on their needs.

As part of CBP’s comprehensive effort to improve the security of our nation’s borders while enhancing legitimate travel and trade, CBP One™ provides increased accessibility and transparency to some of CBP’s most utilized services.

CBP One™ Mobile Application

Securing America's Borders
www.cbp.gov
 
gohawks50 said:
Vance had a much more polished performance, but he seems to be a guy that changes his opinions based on the audience to whom he is speaking, The is video evidence being for an abortion ban, saying he's still going to call Haitian immigrants illegals even though they have legal status, he thinks the votes of people with children should count more than those without, etc.

For those of us old enough to remember, Vance is a real life Eddie Haskell.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.

The top of the D ticket has changed around a dozen positions from the ones she had in 2019 and hasn't deigned to explain any of them. Seems like this is the new normal.
 
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gohawks50 said:
The CBP one app was launched in October of 2020, guess who was President? I'll give you a hint it wasn't Biden or Harris.

On October 28, 2020, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) launched the FREE CBP One™ mobile application on the Apple App and Google Play stores.

CBP One™ is a mobile application that serves as a single portal to a variety of CBP services. Through a series of guided questions, the app directs each type of user to the appropriate services based on their needs.

As part of CBP’s comprehensive effort to improve the security of our nation’s borders while enhancing legitimate travel and trade, CBP One™ provides increased accessibility and transparency to some of CBP’s most utilized services.

CBP One™ Mobile Application

Securing America's Borders
www.cbp.gov
Click to expand...
So it didn't exist in the 90s like tampon Tim said? Thanks for fact checking him and confirming he lied again. What a knucklehead!!
 
binsfeldcyhawk2 said:
Fair enough.

The top of the D ticket has changed around a dozen positions from the ones she had in 2019 and hasn't deigned to explain any of them. Seems like this is the new normal.
Click to expand...
Hopefully we return to normal campaigns after this cycle. The basement campaign worked against Trump with biden but the dems haven't had the results needed these past 3.75 years to play that card again. Now they seem unpolished in these big moments (not sure kamala ever has been polished despite her *ahem* renowned "polishing" skills). Vance and trump are camera ready at a moments notice. Tim and Kamala not so much. I think this debate is going to force a little more publicity from team blue but I'm just not sure they're going to do that.
 
Vance won easily, and in doing so, also covered up for Donald's poor performance against Kamala. I'd say Kamala beat Trump pretty good too, but Vance may have beaten Walz by more. Vance also did a nice job laying out some of Trump's plans/policies and makes nice arguments. Something Trump largely failed to do during his debate.
 
sober_teacher said:
He retired with one rank, which was later changed down one level because he hadn’t completed all the required work to make the rank permanent.

To me, it’s not the biggest controversy I’ve ever heard of. I’d be more upset if he’d claimed to have a rank he’d never held at all.
Click to expand...
What was his last pay grade when he retired, E-8- OR was it E-9, that will determine this.
 
binsfeldcyhawk2 said:
Personally I give a lot of leeway when folks misspeak. No matter what folks think about Walz he didn't mean to say that.

It'll be a meme (already is) but it's a lazy "gotcha" IMO.

It's the standard nowadays and unfortunate. Edited clips etc....

Basically why long form interviews/press conferences will be a thing of the past. Nobody can stay on point and avoid misspeaking in those formats....

As we've seen in this election cycle campaigns will rely more and more on scripted settings and avoid any long format interviews and press conferences.
Click to expand...
I agree. Everyone knows that he misspoke. I dont think its fair to try to punish him for that frankly. Maybe make a meme of it sure, for laughs. But it isnt worthy of questioning his politics over that sort of a thing.
 
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sober_teacher said:
He retired with one rank, which was later changed down one level because he hadn’t completed all the required work to make the rank permanent. To me, it’s not the biggest controversy I’ve ever heard of. I’d be more upset if he’d claimed to have a rank he’d never held at all.
Click to expand...


The AP reporting that follows contradicts your opinion on how he retired. And it might not be controversial to you, but it is to military members. As you will read, one military person said this: “He should answer to the fact that he said he carried a weapon in war and explain why he’s been saying he’s a retired sergeant major,” Eustice (a command sergeant major) said. “Those two things are not true, and he should know better.”

Another military man wrote this: “It saddens me that after your long career in the National Guard, that you did not fulfill the conditions of your promotion to command sergeant major. I would hope that you haven’t been using the rank for political gain, but that is how it appears.”

Excerpts from the AP article linked at the end of this post:

Distinction with a difference​

“I’m a retired command sergeant major,” Walz said in 2006 as he campaigned to unseat the six-term Republican incumbent in Minnesota’s 1st Congressional District.

But that statement was not true.

Walz served briefly as a command sergeant major, but that was not the rank he held at retirement. It is not clear whether Walz repeated the exact claim after he won the House race, but he did not object when colleagues put the honorific before his name during House debates to underscore his gravitas on military matters.

That distinction -– serving as a command sergeant major, but not retiring in that position -– may seem minor to civilians. But to those in uniform, it is not.

Rank is revered in the Army.

Known as an E-9 in military parlance, a command sergeant major is the pinnacle of achievement in the Army’s enlisted corps. Command sergeants major are the backbone of a unit, acting as mentors and disciplinarians to the enlisted troops and trusted advisers to their commanding officers. Sergeants major often stay in their units for long stretches, providing a deep well of institutional knowledge. Commissioned officers typically move on to new posts every few years.

“There’s a reason why there’s so much angst about this among military members that maybe is lost on the rest of the population,” Kolb said. “The rank of command sergeant major, that E-9 rank, is sacred. It’s rare.”

Walz was command sergeant major of the Minnesota Guard’s 1st Battalion, 125th Field Artillery for less than a year, according to the Guard’s personnel office. His rank was reduced for benefit purposes to master sergeant, a step below, when he left the Guard because Walz had not completed all the coursework necessary to hold the rank in retirement.

Facing questions about Walz’s record, the Harris campaign replaced the phrase “a retired command sergeant major” from Walz’s online biography with wording that says he served as one. But Walz’s official biography on the Minnesota governor’s website is still misleading. That biography places “retired from” a Guard battalion after the phrase “Command Sergeant Major Walz.”

“He’s a retired master sergeant,” Kolb said. “And that’s what he should say.”

The campaign also acknowledged that Walz misspoke in a 2018 video posted on social media that recorded him saying “weapons of war that I carried in war.” Vance seized on the comment to accuse Walz of lying about being in a combat zone when he never was. Walz and other Guard troops were sent to Italy in 2003 to provide base security in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, the Pentagon’s name for the war in Afghanistan.

Questions about Walz mischaracterizing his personal story have not been limited to military service. He is also facing scrutiny for how he has described his family’s struggle with infertility. He has implied that he and his wife used in vitro fertilization to conceive, drawing a connection between their experience and efforts to limit the procedure. But they actually used intrauterine insemination treatments, a different process that has attracted less controversy.

Mia Ehrenberg, a campaign spokesperson, defended Walz’s comments and denied that he had been misleading. She said Walz “talks how normal people talk” and was using ”commonly understood shorthand for fertility treatments.”
 
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Leaving the Guard​

By military standards, Walz’s 24 years of service is substantial. He could have retired almost three years earlier. But it is the circumstances surrounding the retirement and how it overlapped with his political ambitions that have drawn scrutiny.

In January 2005, Walz attended a boot camp of sorts in Minnesota for people interested in careers in progressive politics. Walz, a teacher and avid pheasant hunter with blue-collar roots, stood out as a candidate who might win in the state’s strongly Republican 1st Congressional District.

Minnesota Democratic party officials had already begun to take notice of Walz.

Mike Erlandson, the party’s state chair at the time, recalled the enthusiasm one of his aides brimmed with after meeting with Walz in Mankato, a town about 70 miles southwest of Minneapolis where Walz taught high school geography.

“He came barging into my office at the state party, saying, ’Mike, this guy Tim is the real deal,’ and was very excited about Tim Walz and the prospect of him running for Congress,” Erlandson said.

By February, Walz announced that he was considering a run for Congress. But thousands of miles away, the war in Iraq had entered its third year and hopes for a speedy U.S. withdrawal were evaporating. In mid-March, Walz’s battalion was notified of a possible deployment to Iraq.

In a campaign news release, Walz said he would stay in the congressional race “whether I am in Minnesota or Iraq.” He had a responsibility, the release said, to ready his battalion for war “but also to serve if called on.”

Less than two months later, on May 16, 2005, Walz retired from the National Guard. His departure was not unusual. More than 730 senior enlisted soldiers with 24 years of service retired in 2005 when the U.S. was heavily engaged in wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Defense Department statistics.

But Doug Julin, a Minnesota Guard command sergeant major senior to Walz, told CNN on Aug. 8 that Walz had assured him just weeks before that Walz would be going forward with the battalion. Julin, who did not respond to requests for comment from The Associated Press, said he was surprised to learn Walz left the Guard without first discussing the decision with him.

Kolb picked Tom Behrends, who has emerged as Walz’s most biting critic, to replace Walz as the 1st Battalion’s command sergeant major. The unit received an alert order for mobilization to Iraq in mid-July 2005 and a few months later headed to Mississippi for training. The unit shipped to Iraq in March 2006 where it would spend the next 16 months.

Later that year, Walz, unopposed in the Democratic primary, would pull off an upset, beating Republican Rep. Gil Gutknecht.

Questions about Walz’s military record had percolated during that campaign. A letter to the editor in the Mankato Free Press newspaper from a person identified as Maj. Walter Gates said information about Walz’s military career strongly suggested that Walz had fought in Iraq or Afghanistan. To which country did Walz “deploy downrange”? Gates asked.

Walz responded by saying the letter appeared to be an attempt to “slander my good name.” Walz wrote, incorrectly, that he retired as a command sergeant major, but accurately specified that he served on three NATO training missions and in Italy. Walz was equally clear about his wartime service in a 2009 interview with the Library of Congress’s Veterans History Project.

Gates did not respond to multiple messages from the AP so it is unclear what information he was referring to.

Walz, in the early 2005 campaign news release, did not mention Italy when he said he deployed for eight months in support of Operation Enduring Freedom, phrasing that could imply he served in Afghanistan. A 2006 congressional campaign ad described Walz as a soldier who had served for two decades and was “ready when they attacked.”

Joe Eustice, who took over for Behrends as the 1st Battalion’s top enlisted soldier, said Walz was entitled to leave the Guard when he did.

“When you’ve given 24 years of your life, you get to decide, and your reasoning can be whatever you want it to be,” said Eustice, who retired in 2014.

But he is troubled by Walz’s statements after he left the Guard.

“He should answer to the fact that he said he carried a weapon in war and explain why he’s been saying he’s a retired sergeant major,” Eustice said. “Those two things are not true, and he should know better.”

A longtime foe​

Almost two decades have passed since Behrends hurriedly took Walz’s place as the 1st Battalion’s senior enlisted soldier. Yet time has not eased Behrends’ anger at his predecessor. As Walz’s political career flourished, Kolb advised Behrends to let go of the resentment.

But Behrends could not. Not when he read and heard Walz inaccurately referred to as a retired command sergeant major – and Walz failed to set the record straight. After yet another local newspaper elevated Walz’s retirement rank, Behrends wrote to the then-congressman.

“It saddens me that after your long career in the National Guard, that you did not fulfill the conditions of your promotion to command sergeant major,” he told Walz. “I would hope that you haven’t been using the rank for political gain, but that is how it appears.”

Behrends said he did not get a reply.
apnews.com

Walz’s exit from Minnesota National Guard left openings for critics to pounce on his military record

Republicans have seized on criticism by Guard veterans as a major line of attack against Walz, the Minnesota governor who's now the Democratic nominee for vice president. It's unclear whether it'll have an effect in the White House race.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
The poll results on here are pretty revealing. If Walz had won, it would be clear especially with the ratio of liberals vs conservatives on here. The fact Vance has more votes and most people feel it's a tie is a major win for JD. I got the same sense watching the post debate show on CNN
 
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KFsdisciple said:
The poll results on here are pretty revealing. If Walz had won, it would be clear especially with the ratio of liberals vs conservatives on here. The fact Vance has more votes and most people feel it's a tie is a major win for JD. I got the same sense watching the post debate show on CNN
Click to expand...
Best description I saw was someone mentioned that Vance won the first half, while Walz looked nervous; but the second half of the debate was even, with Walz getting in his best jabs in that stretch.

Highly doubt there’s a big bump in polling from this.
 
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sabula said:
So they are legal. Got it. Thanks for clarifying that. Good job!
Click to expand...
He was dispelling the idea they are immigrants holding green cards etc. They are immigrants that were given 'temporary protection' until their cases can be adjudicated and or its safe to return them to their country of origin.

"The Secretary of Homeland Security may designate a foreign country for TPS due to conditions in the country that temporarily prevent the country's nationals from returning safely, or in certain circumstances, where the country is unable to handle the return of its nationals adequately. USCIS may grant TPS to eligible nationals of certain countries (or parts of countries), who are already in the United States. Eligible individuals without nationality who last resided in the designated country may also be granted TPS.

The Secretary may designate a country for TPS due to the following temporary conditions in the country:

  • Ongoing armed conflict (such as civil war)
  • An environmental disaster (such as earthquake or hurricane), or an epidemic
  • Other extraordinary and temporary conditions
During a designated period, individuals who are TPS beneficiaries or who are found preliminarily eligible for TPS upon initial review of their cases (prima facie eligible):

  • Are not removable from the United States
  • Can obtain an employment authorization document (EAD)
  • May be granted travel authorization
Once granted TPS, an individual also cannot be detained by DHS on the basis of his or her immigration status in the United States.

TPS is a temporary benefit that does not lead to lawful permanent resident status or give any other immigration status. However, registration for TPS does not prevent you from:

  • Applying for nonimmigrant status
  • Filing for adjustment of status based on an immigrant petition
  • Applying for any other immigration benefit or protection for which you may be eligible"
 
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Gus is dead said:
He was dispelling the idea they are immigrants holding green cards etc. They are immigrants that were given 'temporary protection' until their cases can be adjudicated and or its safe to return them to their country of origin.

"The Secretary of Homeland Security may designate a foreign country for TPS due to conditions in the country that temporarily prevent the country's nationals from returning safely, or in certain circumstances, where the country is unable to handle the return of its nationals adequately. USCIS may grant TPS to eligible nationals of certain countries (or parts of countries), who are already in the United States. Eligible individuals without nationality who last resided in the designated country may also be granted TPS.

The Secretary may designate a country for TPS due to the following temporary conditions in the country:

  • Ongoing armed conflict (such as civil war)
  • An environmental disaster (such as earthquake or hurricane), or an epidemic
  • Other extraordinary and temporary conditions
During a designated period, individuals who are TPS beneficiaries or who are found preliminarily eligible for TPS upon initial review of their cases (prima facie eligible):

  • Are not removable from the United States
  • Can obtain an employment authorization document (EAD)
  • May be granted travel authorization
Once granted TPS, an individual also cannot be detained by DHS on the basis of his or her immigration status in the United States.

TPS is a temporary benefit that does not lead to lawful permanent resident status or give any other immigration status. However, registration for TPS does not prevent you from:

  • Applying for nonimmigrant status
  • Filing for adjustment of status based on an immigrant petition
  • Applying for any other immigration benefit or protection for which you may be eligible"
Click to expand...
Do you agree that the Haitians are not here illegally?
 
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Scruddy said:
Obviously not, she's terrible. Just look at how she's performed on her one job she was assigned. The border czar is responsible for a 400% spike in illegal immigration. She deserves to be fired.
Click to expand...
You’re probably the biggest dipshit on the board. Your guy couldn’t/wouldn’t answer the question about whether Trump won the election. Which means he’s a total election denier. I’m just so tired of this. He lost the election. Just have some balls and admit it. You guys are the reason the border bill didn’t get passed. It was ready to go but Trump convinced all of his simps to not sign it. Not one Maga like you has the best interest of women or what’s right for this country.
 
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And
Huey Grey said:
I've said in many posts that Vance did well. I've complimented him to very high levels. He beat Walz through most of the night except for abortion and January 6.

That said, all the hard work Vance put in will mean nothing because Trump is such a collosal fvck up, he will just drag Vance back down again.
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I’d argue that those are 2 of the 3 most important things moving forward. Explain “beating “ him. He admitted he lied about Springfield (again) and was pissed when called out on it. He still also won’t admit that Trump lost the election. And 3rd the Republicans, as Walz called out, were the ones that wouldn’t sign the border bill because of their God Trump. And clearly the Republicans honestly hate women. They are 2nd class citizens to them. Vance won nothing.
 
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