Incoming talent and coaches? Basically right now the future of the program with current players and future players. Would you trade Iowa State? Just curious because as a Cyclone fan I think our future is sitting pretty. I know there is some discontent because the season is not going well with Iowa right now but there are some talented players on the way. So would you trade uniforms on current players and future players as well as the coaches? Don't give the "He wants to be a Hawk" thing. I am saying if everyone wanted to be a Hawk.
Would you trade Iowa State
- Thread starter andy1992
- Start date
Yes. Without question.
Andy, if we are talking strictly basketball, yes. Without pause, reflection, or equivocation.
Whenever Iowa fans respond to me with the whole "we live in lily white Iowa" as an explanation for why the basketball program has to be filled with the Who's Who of marginally talented kids from 2-A and 3-A Iowa schools, I simply respond "Iowa State."
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade Gatens, Uthoff, or the kid from Muscatine coming in for anyone (okay, well, maybe for a Lebron James I would), but the greater point obviously being there's no reason the University of Iowa men's basketball program can't recruit better players and have the likes of say Jordan Bohannon peppered in to classes (for the purpose of having a sharp shooter coming off the bench, i.e.) as opposed to being one of the standouts.
Unfortunately, too many Iowa fans are myopic and have bought into this idiotic belief that Iowa needs to recruit like UNI and take care of their own backyard. Then, of course, the cliches of Iowa State recruits "thugs" come about to minimize or rationalize the flirtations with greatness Iowa State has had in basketball this decade. The attitude is simple and codgy and at this point beyond the pale.
Whenever Iowa fans respond to me with the whole "we live in lily white Iowa" as an explanation for why the basketball program has to be filled with the Who's Who of marginally talented kids from 2-A and 3-A Iowa schools, I simply respond "Iowa State."
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade Gatens, Uthoff, or the kid from Muscatine coming in for anyone (okay, well, maybe for a Lebron James I would), but the greater point obviously being there's no reason the University of Iowa men's basketball program can't recruit better players and have the likes of say Jordan Bohannon peppered in to classes (for the purpose of having a sharp shooter coming off the bench, i.e.) as opposed to being one of the standouts.
Unfortunately, too many Iowa fans are myopic and have bought into this idiotic belief that Iowa needs to recruit like UNI and take care of their own backyard. Then, of course, the cliches of Iowa State recruits "thugs" come about to minimize or rationalize the flirtations with greatness Iowa State has had in basketball this decade. The attitude is simple and codgy and at this point beyond the pale.
Why because I'm honest and realistic. They wouldn't be my first choice and I sure as hell ain't cheering for them. I just think they are in a better place right now in men's hoops and only men's hoops. I hope Fran changes my mind soon.
I would not be surprised if ISU is a top 25 team next year. Babb, Wiggington, Lard and Young back. Add the Virginia guard transfer who is an above avg player and the talented incoming frosh has to have ISU fans excited. Wiggington and Lard are big time ballers. Prohm is showing everyone what a rebuild is suppose to look like. Dude can recruit and knows he needs to go out on the transfer market to plug holes and prevent long-term rebuilds or gigantic dropouts. Even when they're rebuilding he has ISU playing competitive basketball.
Things are looking good for next year. Despite a tough Big 12, and two OT losses, the young team this year keeps improving. Prohm is a positive coach and didn’t lose them.
---------Unfortunately, too many Iowa fans are myopic and have bought into this idiotic belief that Iowa needs to recruit like UNI and take care of their own backyard. Then, of course, the cliches of Iowa State recruits "thugs" come about to minimize or rationalize the flirtations with greatness Iowa State has had in basketball this decade. The attitude is simple and codgy and at this point beyond the pale.
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I'd trade Hilton for Carver in a heartbeat. Carver hasn't been a home court advantage since the 2005/06 season. No matter how you slice or dice it moving the students to the lower level of the entire west side of Carver and allowing them free admission is the up most priority for next season and beyond. The prime mover of this project has to be Fran, if he doesn't insist that changes have to be made to enhance the student experience, then he might as well throw in the towel and give up now, as Iowa will never be a player in the BIG as long as it remains status quo and will always be at a recruiting disadvantage. If it wasn't for remembering Chris Street on Saturday, Carver would have been a morgue.
Without a doubt they will be right back into the top 25, and that will just be the beginning. They are loaded with talented players right now, and with addition of Shayok from Virginia, Tucker-Horton coming in from Chicago Simeon, and Lard, Wiggington, Solomon, all with another year under their belt, as well Babb, a SR running the show... They're going to be a problem, especially the 2019/20 season, where they will have a legit chance to spend much of the year in the top 10/15; that is of course, they all stay together... To be clear, I am NOT an ISU fan, just someone who tends to watch a lot of CBB when I get the chance, and I have enjoyed watching ISU play on occasion, because of their playing style, really fun to watch at times, and athleticism all over the floor. It is what I thought we were supposedly going to do at IOWA, but I'm yet to see much of a resemblance. I'm sure this opinion won't go over well, but whatever, that's what I see... Iowa St this year also resembles what a "young" team, full of guys who are "still learning" the High Major D1 game is supposed to look like. You're just fooling yourself when you play the "we're just young" card. Young? Sure... but also not that talented as a whole... I will say this, I have been back to Iowa the last few winters, and being an Eastern Iowa (MAC Conf) guy, I've made a point to see Joe W play every year, since his freshman season, and he is the real deal. I think for anyone who has never seen him play live, will be pleasantly surprised next year. Kid is smooth as they come. Kid is going to need a ton of help though.
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I'm a Cyclone fan, but have seen most Hawk games. I feel like Fran has very good talent, he is just using them wrong. Bohannen and Cook would start for just about anyone, and the cast of players in the top seven is good. Fran simply plays too many players, and there is no synergy between players. I personally think Iowa's talent is as good as Iowa States, just play 7 or 8 players, period. And quit chewing their ass all the time. If Holberg coached this Iowa team, they would be in the hunt for an NCAA berth.
I agree with your entire post.
It concerns me that Weiskamp may be entering into a Matt Gatens-like situation at Iowa. You get the feeling a lot of Iowa players are not endeared to Fran right now and that it's pretty much a foregone conclusion there will be departures in the spring (if not sooner). If one of those is Tyler Cook, ouch.
Barta has a mess to figure out. And no, I have zero confidence in Barta's ability to pick a head coach, but at this point I'm willing to error on the side of a broken clock being right twice a day and hope that if Barta does what needs to be done--firing Fran--that he could get lucky in his next hire.
I think one thing is for sure, though: Fran is not the coach to make Iowa basketball competitive again and marginally relevant nationally. That will just never happen under Fran. Will Iowa likely be better next year? Yes. Is there any evidence to suggest the program will ever be significantly better than middle-of-the-pack in conference play and an early out in the NCAAs in March? Nope.
In short, it's time to hit the reset button. Again.
The cliche that iowa state recruits thugs comes from a long line of legal incidents (some pretty funny) from their players over the years, followed up by Hoiberg bringing on damn near a starting lineup with of players that got kicked off their previous teams.
Otherwise I’m guessing most iowa fans have no issue with how they run their program.
As a Hawkeye fan, I disagree with most--not all--but most of what you're saying.
1. Bohannon would not start at most places.
2. The Top 7 at Iowa range from okay, mediocre, to Drake caliber.
3. Piggy backing off #2, Iowa's talent is not even close to being as good as the talent at Iowa State. Most of the kids playing significant minutes at Iowa have at least one full season under their belt of experience. Not the case with ISU players. They are young and going through a normal learning curve. A true comparison will be how ISU does next year compared to this year's Iowa squad. I'm guessing by this time next year ISU will have more than one win in Big XII play.
4. Hoiberg is not a magician. He won because he got the best talent he could into the program.
I do, however, agree Fran plays too many players (much like Dr. Tom did) and that there's a pretty good chance the Iowa kids are tired of Fran's volatility and hissy fits. There's a difference between being tough and pushing your team to be better and just being a hot-headed jerk.
Yep, and Iowa has Pierre Pierce and Anthony Hubbard. (I don't know how far back you mean with "a long line of legal incidents.")
I was too young to remember Sam "Mack the Knife," although the story of him robbing a Burger King where his picture was hanging up is obviously comedy, and Iowa State has certainly had their fair share of dandies after Mack, but I'm not sure where exactly you are seeing Iowa State as more "thuggish" than other schools. Sorry, I just don't see it.
To be honest, the mentality you just demonstrated reeks of sour grapes. It's the same type of mentality Iowa State fans had when Hayden Fry was kickin' their team's ass year in and year out. Be real: If the shoe was on the other foot and Iowa was winning, you'd have no problem with transfers and giving kids a "second chance." That's where the real problem lies. Iowa fans take issue with Iowa State winning and Iowa not. And for the record, Iowa State's starting five was not mostly comprised of players who had been kicked off of previous teams.
You don’t see why a rival school might take shots at Hoibergs waiver wire strategy? It would be one thing if they were legit transfers, but most got kicked off their previous team.
Sure, of course, I get the rivalry aspect.
What I'm talking about is accepting mediocrity and the "wisdom" of recruiting like UNI so we don't have an "image problem" like Iowa State. No where outside of Iowa City are people talking about all the "thugs" playing basketball for the Cyclones. Last I knew, Louisville and other places of interest to the FBI were the ones with the image problem.
That's my point. Iowa needs to go out and get better talent into the program and quit using the whole "...but but Iowa State has thugs on their team!" as an acceptable reason why Iowa can't, don't, or won't recruit better talent.
Has anyone ever actually used that defense? Seems like something made up by cyclone fans.
I want to beat Iowa State when we play but I really don’t give a shit if they are a better program than us or not.
Wiggington, Lard, and Babb will all be nice returning pieces, but Young is just an ok player, that I wouldn't take over any of our starting bigs now or next year. Mariok was a role player at VA, could be a nice piece as well. But if the top 7 at Iowa are all average, I'm not sure how you think all of ISU's guys are that much more talented. Jackson, their #2 scorer will be gone, as will Beverly and Brase.
Wiggington is a very good player, and will be even better next year. Moss doesn't compare. Peterson already wrote an article with some quotes, hinting he's thinking about leaving after next year at the latest. Would be nice if he left this year.
Lard - 22.8 mpg: 12.1 ppg - 7.0 RPG
Garza - 19.1 mpg: 10.9 ppg - 6.3 RPG
Pretty similar if you ask me, and both freshman. If Garza played Lard's minutes, he'd average more PPG and RPG. Not a knock on Lard, I think he's a good player, just like I think Garza will be.
Babb - 37.8 mpg: 12.1 ppg - 7.4 RPG - 7.4 APG
Bohannon - 30.5 mpg: 13.3 ppg - 2.2 RPG - 4.8 APG. Better 3p% and FT%, while a bit lower in FG%.
Going to your statement in bold above, what are you using to justify this? Out of ISU's top 8 players, they play 3 Seniors and 2 Juniors. While we play 1 Junior and no Seniors.
Recruiting class:
247 - has Weiskamp 50th, Griffin 89, Horton-Tucker 111(much higher in Rivals lately to 31), Haliburton 142, Frederick 230, and Conditt 242.
Rivals - Tucker 31, Weiskamp 42, Griffin 85, Haliburton 149, and the other two are not ranked.
ESPN - Weiskamp 71, Horton-Tucker 76.
I guess in summary, it seems like we are trying way harder to nullify any promise our team shows in the future, and I'm not sure why. Many are willing to say positive things about other teams players, while many of our players show the same promise. Maybe it's because we've watched our players more, thus have noticed more of the bad things they do. I'm really not sure.
Wiggington, Lard, and Babb will all be nice returning pieces, but Young is just an ok player, that I wouldn't take over any of our starting bigs now or next year. Mariok was a role player at VA, could be a nice piece as well. But if the top 7 at Iowa are all average, I'm not sure how you think all of ISU's guys are that much more talented. Jackson, their #2 scorer will be gone, as will Beverly and Brase.
Wiggington is a very good player, and will be even better next year. Moss doesn't compare. Peterson already wrote an article with some quotes, hinting he's thinking about leaving after next year at the latest. Would be nice if he left this year.
Lard - 22.8 mpg: 12.1 ppg - 7.0 RPG
Garza - 19.1 mpg: 10.9 ppg - 6.3 RPG
Pretty similar if you ask me, and both freshman. If Garza played Lard's minutes, he'd average more PPG and RPG. Not a knock on Lard, I think he's a good player, just like I think Garza will be.
Babb - 37.8 mpg: 12.1 ppg - 7.4 RPG - 7.4 APG
Bohannon - 30.5 mpg: 13.3 ppg - 2.2 RPG - 4.8 APG. Better 3p% and FT%, while a bit lower in FG%.
Going to your statement in bold above, what are you using to justify this? Out of ISU's top 8 players, they play 3 Seniors and 2 Juniors. While we play 1 Junior and no Seniors.
Recruiting class:
247 - has Weiskamp 50th, Griffin 89, Horton-Tucker 111(much higher in Rivals lately to 31), Haliburton 142, Frederick 230, and Conditt 242.
Rivals - Tucker 31, Weiskamp 42, Griffin 85, Haliburton 149, and the other two are not ranked.
ESPN - Weiskamp 71, Horton-Tucker 76.
I guess in summary, it seems like we are trying way harder to nullify any promise our team shows in the future, and I'm not sure why. Many are willing to say positive things about other teams players, while many of our players show the same promise. Maybe it's because we've watched our players more, thus have noticed more of the bad things they do. I'm really not sure.
It's more to do with Iowa coming off an NCAA and losing one player and Iowa State losing a whole starting lineup. Yet, Iowa States roster is way more ahead of Iowa's and the rebuilding effort is not based on kids growing up fans of the team you play for so they commit to you (Wiescamp and McCaffrey). Iowa State has gone into Chicago, pulled out 3 of the top 5 ranked kids in Chicago. Pulled out one of Milwaukees best players. Got Wigginton from Canada via East Coast prep school. Have Transfers ready to come in next year also with Shayok and Jacobson. Lard and Wigginton are Freshman.
So I would say Iowa State has some major hope. What does Iowa have at this point? They don't lose anyone. Yet, the kids currently on the team are not really that good. Garza is the only one showing he still really wants it. Bohanon is out of position and not going to be changing anytime soon.
Just my take on it.
At this point, Iowa St's current roster and signed recruits as a composite are better than Iowa's roster.
There is a lot of excitement in Ames right now for next year.
There is a lot of excitement in Ames right now for next year.
I'd trade you for an ISU fan that didn't bitch about everything.
The numbers might be similiar between Garza and Lard but in conference play:
Lard: 14.7 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 3.0 BPG
Garza: 10.6 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 0.6 BPG
Yeah he's playing more, but you can't always just say more minutes result in better stats. I've got little quibbles with other things in the post but right now Lard and Garza really isn't debatable.
Lard: 14.7 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 3.0 BPG
Garza: 10.6 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 0.6 BPG
Yeah he's playing more, but you can't always just say more minutes result in better stats. I've got little quibbles with other things in the post but right now Lard and Garza really isn't debatable.
"It's more to do with Iowa coming off an NCAA and losing one player and Iowa State losing a whole starting lineup. Yet, Iowa States roster is way more ahead of Iowa's and the rebuilding effort is not based on kids growing up fans of the team you play for so they commit to you (Wiescamp and McCaffrey)."
You beat Iowa by 6 at home, and are likely going to struggle to finish .500 as well. How is that way ahead?
In state recruits don't matter because they are fans of the team growing up? I don't understand this logic. We should ignore two top recruits in the next two years, because they are from Iowa? It very much matters getting the guys who are highly ranked and grow up fans. Look no further than Barnes for ISU, or Paige for Iowa. Pulling the top ranked recruit from your state every year, is a very good base to start with. Iowa pulled in Cook, Nunge, and Garza the last two years as well, who will be good players not from the state of Iowa, and all were ranked higher than one of the Chicago guys (Conditt) you are using as hope. Hell, most Iowa fans want Fran to take away a scholarship of a player next year, that is ranked higher than Conditt. New Iowa players on the horizon, according to 247, will be ranked #50, #62, #150, and #230. While ISU's will be 89, 111, 142, and 242. Why shouldn't we have hope?
Have Transfers ready to come in next year also with Shayok and Jacobson.
Watched Jacobson at Nebraska, wasn't that impressed, but we will see. The guy average 6 and 6 in his sophomore year playing 24 mpg. Again, you're finding this as a positive, but all of Iowa players aren't good? Jesus, Pemsl and Kreiner average better stats.
What does Iowa have at this point? They don't lose anyone. Yet, the kids currently on the team are not really that good.
If our guys aren't any good as you say, then you must not think anyone on your team besides Wiggington is good. I'd take Cook over any of your other players besides Wiggington. Garza shows the same promise Lard has. Bohannon is still a good player for us.
I would say Cook and Lard are about the same and Lard is getting better. Prior to this season he had not played in a real game for almost 3 years.
I am not saying don't take the best. I am saying the only real players besides cook that Fran has got have been Iowa Kids. You can't win in the big 10 or big 12 with just kids from Iowa. Not enough talent. So you look to outside of Iowa and Fran has got nothing. If you think Iowa is on the same path right now as Iowa State. Good for you. However, most of your own fan base would not agree with you and would agree Iowa State is in much better position.
Lard is averaging 9 more mpg than Garza in conference play, so if you are going to us per game stats, I think it's very important, and very debatable. Garza has taken 53 shots compared to Lard's 73. It does matter for PPG. Garza has shown to be a better shooter, FT shooter, more assists, and has less turnovers than Lard in conference games as well, while Lard has shown to be a better blocker and rebounder. Lard is a nice player, but so is Garza.
We would have taken Kane or Dejean-Jones in a heartbeat, don't kid yourself.
Our fan base is off the rails right now. I bet even you can see that.
I am not saying don't take the best. I am saying the only real players besides cook that Fran has got have been Iowa Kids. You can't win in the big 10 or big 12 with just kids from Iowa. Not enough talent. So you look to outside of Iowa and Fran has got nothing.
You are kind of contradicting yourself in the same paragraph. Cook is good, but outside of Iowa Fran has got nothing? Garza is playing good as well for the current team. That Marble kid was pretty good, so was Gessell, and White. You should tell Woody, Jok, and Uthoff that you can't win in the big 10, led by kids from Iowa. Silly statement. Imagine if instead of Gessell, Iowa had Paige, another Iowa kid, those 4 years. Throw in Barnes and McDermott from 10-14. You absolutely could win, and win big with just Iowa kids anywhere. The future Iowa talent is pretty good too, with Weiskamp, Patrick, Carton, Green and Foster all top 100 players, for starters.
Garza is also a bottom 10% defender at his position in the NCAA per Synergy. And he might not be playing more minutes because he can't play more minutes. If he's so efficient, why isn't he getting more shots and getting the ball more? Lard was the best player on the court and ISU went to him time after time in a win over the #8 team in the country Saturday.
Lard is basically a wash with Cook on stats in conference play, and he's a freshman. Advanced stats show Lard is outperforming Cook. I'd love Cook on the ISU team but if I had to pick one I know which one I'd want.
You wouldn't take Weiler-Babb, who is on pace to be only the second major conference player to average 12/7/7 in a season in the last 20 years, all while playing through injury? Ok.
Marble? Really? HIs dad was a legend at Iowa. It's not like Fran went and got some kid from Michigan to come play in Iowa. IF he would have lost Marble is would have been shocking. Not to mention I think Marble was a 3 star recruit. Also Jok was basically Iowa States to lose until Left got in trouble contacting him when he should not have. That left Jok with Drake and Iowa as his offers. So Fran beat out Drake. Woody? Really? He was terrible. Gessell got worse every year.
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