I was just making my case, to jim4edwards, for not restricting the use of non-scholarship players. While there may be an advantaged gained, by a coach paying the tuition for a child athlete, it would be dicey for the NCAA to declare it against the rules. I don't think the NCAA has really ever considered such a move.
2017 recruiting
- Thread starter herkyhawkeye76
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Connor is a top 100 type recruit, he has earned it. I'm not saying that NB isn't worthy or deserving of a scholarship but him being worthy doesn't mean Connor isn't. Fran may decide to go ahead and give Connor's ride to NB and good on him if he does but I wouldn't think any differently of him if he didn't.
Personally I think Fran has been really good about giving the higher level senior walkons scholarships if they were available and I have no doubt he wants to get one in the hands of NB but I would rather see that come as a result of someone transferring out. This last class was large and their are not many ships in the coming classes (plus if DJ gets another season that is one less available in a few years). I would like to see Fran fill the scholarships to new players as planned and if someone steps out of the program then reward NB at that time (or give him Connors IF that is something he wants to do).
The thing about having a big roster is that it allows you redshirt the young players. We're seeing the benefits of that this year with Baer and Brady making minimal mistakes in their limited minutes. It will be interesting to see how much the redshirt helps Moss and Hutton out next year when they will be counted on for quality minutes. Especially when you consider that those two were the most highly regarded recruits from that class. Looking at our incoming recruits, Bohannon probably can't redshirt as we'll need a backup PG. Cook probably won't because of how talented he is. But we may have an opportunity for Kreiner or Pemsl to redshirt.
Redshirting is how Bo was able to be so successful year after year. He wasn't always getting 4 star recruits, but with experience 3 star players can eventually play like 4 star recruits. If Fran has his kids walk on to free up a couple of scholarships for those classes to have 15 Big Ten caliber players, it gives us more freedom to redshirt guys. Be honest, we will never be able to recruit at a level where we're pulling in several freshman ready to contribute significant minutes right away in every class. If we can pull in one or two of those per class with the rest being kids that can be redshirted and developed, we can make a very sustainable program.
Redshirting is how Bo was able to be so successful year after year. He wasn't always getting 4 star recruits, but with experience 3 star players can eventually play like 4 star recruits. If Fran has his kids walk on to free up a couple of scholarships for those classes to have 15 Big Ten caliber players, it gives us more freedom to redshirt guys. Be honest, we will never be able to recruit at a level where we're pulling in several freshman ready to contribute significant minutes right away in every class. If we can pull in one or two of those per class with the rest being kids that can be redshirted and developed, we can make a very sustainable program.
Agreed. This topic of Fran's sons comes up every couple of months it seems. And your accurate comment about Fran is not going to play 13-15 guys each year, other than blowouts, goes right over the heads of those that want them to walk on. Those same people are probably the ones that continue to speculate which guys will leave based on their minimal playing time. It's kind of a joke in a way.
This is correct. No sense in folks freaking out about it at this time. Inevitably, someone will transfer, especially among the glut of wing players who are within one class of each other (Fleming, Ellingson, Moss, Hutton, Williams, although he's a PG too). Someone or 2 out of that group will likely not be overly happy with playing time (no one would blame them). Other scholarships will open up, and it won't be the end of the world and the sky won't be falling.
So Connor has earned it more than Baer? That doesn't really make sense if you think about it.
The question is, and no one has really answered it, but as far as I understand it the only difference anymore is the cost of tuition. All the other advantages and tools at the players disposal are the same I believe.
So in that case it really has no effect on Connor either way. Just Fran or NBs family.
It will probably be a non issue as someone will most likely leave after next year.
I realize it is a LONG time ago, but I worked there 71-77. I didn't have college kids but am pretty sure there was free tuition at that time.
Michael Scott's Conflict Resolution Theory #5 Win/Win/Win:
Connor walks on, coincidentally Fran gets a $100,000 per year bump in pay, and now we have an extra scholarship.
The important difference here is with win/win/win, we all win. Me too. I win for having successfully mediated a conflict at the message board.
Connor walks on, coincidentally Fran gets a $100,000 per year bump in pay, and now we have an extra scholarship.
The important difference here is with win/win/win, we all win. Me too. I win for having successfully mediated a conflict at the message board.
Both of my parents retired from the University within the last 2 years, my older brother went to Iowa for 1 year and he didn't get any 'parent employee discounts'
Doug McDermott did this at Creighton for at least one year and stated publicly that it was so his team could have 1 more scholarship player. Since his dad gets paid 7 figures it seemed like a selfless and wise decision on both Greg and Doug's parts.
Dan, I don't like "Creaning" either but I don't see anything wrong with a coach sitting down with a player and saying, "son, you are a valuable member of this team and I want you to be here. But I must be honest with you. With the players we have returning and the players we are bringing in, you are probably NOT going to crack the top 10 rotation next year, which means you won't get to play in many games. If you want to transfer somewhere where you would get more playing time opportunity we can help find a good situation for you, if that is your decision."
I could see this happening with a couple of guys after the season. And I could imagine some will take the coaches up on this offer to help them find a better situation.
Agreed, honest communication is great. And it isn't Creaning. Here's a good example of not Creaning:
Christian Williams was asked by McCaffery to be patient before he made a choice. No offer. As the season went on Dickerson (not going to get into the whole thing) decides to transfer and then an offer to Williams was extended.
To me that's class. McCaffery gave Dickerson the call on staying or not, and didn't jump out and offer a scholarship he didn't know he'd have.
If you look at how and when scholarships are typically given it makes absolute sense. Connor was offered before NB and if he wasn't the coaches kid he would have a pile full of offers from D1 schools.
You seem to be arguing that since Fran's makes a large income that he should just pick up the tab even though this player is a scholarship worthy player, who has been offered and which has been verbally accepted.
What you are saying is all financially well off scholarship athletes should forgo scholarships to those of lesser means. I don't like that approach.
NB is a walk-on, he walked on bc his offers for big time hoops was limited and he wanted to be a Hawkeye. He has proven to be a valuable contributor early in his career and the coach wants to get him a scholarship but it also needs to make sense for the program. If Connor wasn't Fran's son no one would be saying take his ship away, that is how I look at it. Not that NB isn't deserving but the circumstances may work out that there isn't a ship available to him immediately but something the coach will reward him with when one that wasn't expected to be available becomes available.
In the end Fran may decide to give NB Connor's ship but if he doesn't I certainly wouldn't hold that against him.
I hope Doug paid his dad back after his first NBA check. Also it wasn't like his scholar ship was going to an incoming player. It went to a player he had played with for a long time, that was granted a 6 years, that he was really good friends with. Totally different situation.
If that was what I was trying to say, that's what I would have said.
Fran makes a large income but his job is also to put good players on the roster and win games.
You can't seperate the two IMO.
I'm sure there's financial incentives for wins in his contract and as someone pointed out Barta can give him a raise to cover the cost if he was actually worried about it.
What if another big 10/12 team decides to offer Baer a scholy?
He has already taken his redshirt and would have to sit out a year and then would only have 2 left to play vs three. So I imagine, unless he wanted to transfer down, he will stay with Iowa and Fran will get him a scholarship when one becomes available and makes sense.
I wouldn't say totally different situation, different nonetheless.
Douggie McBuckets was also an All-American yielding his scholly to a team mate. Connor has yet to prove what he can do beyond the high school level while Baer has proven he can contribute at the B1G level. That's something to consider too.
Cook hasn't proved anything either, maybe we should take away his ship? This way we can get NB one a year earlier.
So Fran will win more games with 13 schollies and 2 walkons instead of just 13 schollies. And not even 11 or 12 will play as you said above. Got it.
I don't have a problem with one of the boys walking on, per we, but not necessarily just to open up 2 extra scholarships for all four of their years. With the example of Tillman, if Fran were to be able to get a commitment, and Jones was granted the extra year, then leave Connor off scholarship for a year, until either another one opened, or Tillman did his one and done. But I would never advocate leaving him off continuously, since he actually earned a scholarship, he should get one.
If someone left this year and opened one, sure give it to him. Choose between him or a Tillman to get that scholarship (assuming an extra one opened after next season)? The program changer gets it.
I was making a point that typically ships are given based off of what this kids have done in HS and AAU careers. Connor is a recruit that isn't all that far away, from a ranking perspective, than Cook and if CM wasn't Fran's son this discussion wouldn't be happening.
The Kid Has Earned His Scholarship
Exactly, it's not that hard to understand.
Seems a few people may lack basic critical thinking skills.
You also have roster stability go out the window. I'm a big advocate of bringing in the best talent you can every year, preferably talent that is better than what you already have on the roster. However, there is also a limit to this. If you are constantly having multiple players leaving because of lack of playing time, and you are able to fill those extra scholarships each year, one of two things will happen. Either you will eventually get to the point you won't be able to get those extra quality players, so you might as well put Connor or Pat on scholarship. Or, you can get the extra players every year, but you are only going 8-9 deep, 3 guys leave every year, so you might as well put Connor or Pat on scholarship.
Having 14 or 15 scholarship worthy players on the roster every year for the next 8 years sounds great on paper. My bet is that it wouldn't be anywhere as good as it sounds in practice, though. One or two of those eight would probably be manageable, but not all eight.
I really don't feel like this should have to be explained but here goes.
If that 13 player is a guy like Tillman absolutely %100 yes.
You're not going to play the end of the bench no matter what. That's obvious.
But if you have a chance to significantly upgrade the top of your team the end of the bench is irrelevant as far as playing time is concerned , the 12/13 players become the 13/14 players. They don't play either way but you don't have to Crean them to make room if you have extra flexibility.
In the case of Baer, he's already jumped scholarship guys, it's not necessarily going to result in a big difference in Ws and Ls because he's not going to leave regardless but it's a nice thing to do for a guy who paid his own way and is better than some of your scholy players.
I'm not advocating they should just be walkons regardless , just saying that with Baer now in the mix and Jones being extended a year it's an option to be more flexible for a year here or there.
In all likely hood someone out of this freshman class will leave after next year and IMO it's actually beneficial if the bottom of the roster cycles out rather than tying up your options for years.
We could still be hamstrung with Kyle Myer, Pat Ingrahm and Trey Dickerson.
I can't find it, but I thought that the NCAA changed the rule after McDermott that a coach's son counts against the scholarship limits even if he doesn't take a scholarship. Or am I confusing that with athletes with scholarships in other sports that participate in football count against FB schollies?
What makes you assume this?
I haven't heard that mentioned at all this season. I remember when Kyle Galloway was on academic scholarship it was mentioned damn near every time he hit a 3.
And Cooks parents aren't millionaires that coach the team that could be reembersed by the school anyway.
It's apples to oranges.
I trust Fran to figure out what is the best thing to do, I do hope he can find a way to reward NB with a scholarship, he has earned it. Nice incentive for when you try to get other kids to walk on as well.
If we are going to get this involved over a decision that isn't ours, I can just imagine the heat we're going to put on McCaffery's kids when they get here. Maybe they would be smart to play for UNI? Maybe McCaffery would be smart to take a job somewhere else where they can play for him and enjoy a scholarship.
Or maybe McCaffery should just be able to decide for himself if he wants to take an extra player. Some coaches do that.
In other words, fish bowl....I'm getting a feeling we're becoming a little fish bowl here.
There are a buttload of these kind of pictures on the internet. Funny thing is as I read this thread I have a feeling we couldn't as a group decide which is good and which is evil if we tired. (About our little conundrum over scholarships.)
If we are going to get this involved over a decision that isn't ours, I can just imagine the heat we're going to put on McCaffery's kids when they get here. Maybe they would be smart to play for UNI? Maybe McCaffery would be smart to take a job somewhere else where they can play for him and enjoy a scholarship.
Or maybe McCaffery should just be able to decide for himself if he wants to take an extra player. Some coaches do that.
In other words, fish bowl....I'm getting a feeling we're becoming a little fish bowl here.
Iowa is a fish bowl but it's also nothing compared to the pressure of a blue blood program.
Overall coaching at Iowa is a pretty sweet deal.
I was in the act of posting a giant rant responding to this. Then I realized that nobody has any real idea how recruits will pan out.
Cook is our biggest recruit, which is why you chose him as the example. Connor hasn't signed a LOI either, so if we backed out on Cook now we'd be committing NCAA violations, another reason that is a bad example.
I disagree. Who was the last basketball coach to leave after truly being happy at Iowa?
I know it wasn't Lickliter. Alford didn't seem too happy. Dr. Tom was let go. Raveling got the heck out of Dodge. So did Olson. Shultz resigned before he was fired. Miller left, but we're a little too far back now for me to be certain. I've heard he was kind of a traveling guy in the first place. I've also heard that the deal between Evy and the football coaches got him into the mix somehow and he wasn't happy.
I don't know. This is just my opinion but it's always seemed to me that half the fans of Iowa sports sit around looking for something to $%%^& about. Same thing with farmers, ever find one that will say the weather's been nice all week.? Nah but they can remember which day was the worst.
It's just something about our delightful little culture. And I've a feeling this kid is on the team thing is going to be the next big #$%^% and moan session.
Great post Dan. Agree 100%.
Just stop everyone. Fran has done enough to to earn our trust. Let him do his thing and trust he will do what's best for this program. Come on.
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