House of the Dragon
- Thread starter Bonerfarts
- Start date
- Sep 13, 2002
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Interesting take here, lol. Slate critic thinks House of the Dragon needs a LOT MORE INCEST! 😂
SEPT 22, 202210:15 AM
Back when Jaime and Cersei Lannister were horrifying us on a weekly basis, their twincestuous love affair—defined from the start as evil and corrupting (remember “the things I do for love”?)—was a plot engine for Game of Thrones. The ultimate toxic relationship, the affair defined both characters, showing us their isolation from the rest of the world, highlighting Cersei’s narcissism and Jaime’s pathetically misplaced sense of commitment. To the extent they felt the need to justify themselves at all, Jaime and Cersei always pointed back to the Targaryens and their habit of intermarriage between siblings, cousins, uncles, and nieces.
And now, in House of the Dragon, we’re there. Imagine an entire world full of incestuous couples—people engaged in the ultimate taboo (to viewers, and also to some people in the show’s world), but also in a practice their family endorses as an expression of clan loyalty. That taboo action both stems from and recreates an alternate moral universe, and in theory, that’s quite interesting. But five episodes into the show, we’re not really seeing it. The show is unremarkable in its characters, running a rote playbook of emotional situations—father versus petulant daughter; young wife married to an older king—to move the plot along. That’s why I think House of the Dragon needs more incest. A lot more.
If House of the Dragon wanted to underplay the incestuous element, as it feels so far like it might, it has set itself up for trouble by casting Matt Smith as half of its own keep-it-in-the-family couple. Game of Thrones has never really been good at generating romantic tension (though Jaime and Cersei had their fans). But because Smith, who plays Prince Daemon, is by far the most compelling actor on the show, his scenes with his niece, Princess Rhaenyra (Milly Alcock), have been highly uncomfortable to watch. Readers of romance novels (like myself) may have felt themselves unwillingly and automatically beginning to ship this couple, because these plot grooves are so well-worn in our minds. Here is a willful princess trapped in a dead-end life; here is a dangerous and powerful outsider who knows exactly how bored she is. Here they are meeting in secret, at night. Here they are using a busy dance floor as cover for a whispered conversation. The rest of the room falls away because they have so much chemistry! Oh, dear.
I don’t think I’ll be spoiling to tell you how the show’s source material, George R.R. Martin’s quasi-history of the Targaryens, Fire & Blood, proceeds from here, because I really doubt House of the Dragon will follow suit. (I’m ready to be wrong!) In the book, Rhaenyra, split from Criston Cole, and married to Laenor Valeryon, takes a new lover, Ser Harwin “Breakbones” Strong. She has three sons, who many in court suspect to be fathered by Strong rather than Laenor, because they’re brown-haired and brown-eyed—not silvery, like “real” Targaryens. When Laenor dies (a murder—many suspect Daemon to be the culprit), and Breakbones follows suit (ditto), Rhaenyra secretly marries Daemon. They have two more sons, who are purple-eyed and silver-haired. This is where things stand when the “Dance of Dragons” (the war of succession between Rhaenyra and Alicent and Alicent’s son, Aegon) begins, with Daemon as Rhaeynra’s general.
I would like to see this unfold, not just because I’ve been manipulated into cheering on the progress of a romance between an uncle and a niece (for God’s sake, help me), but because it would really help us nail down why the Targaryens were different. So far, House of the Dragon is a nothingburger in part because the Targaryens seem just like any other Westerosi family, except plus dragons. Everyone in Westeros, we know from years of watching and reading this stuff, is proud of their house and unbending when it comes to advancing its interests, sacrificing daughters to bad marriages and sons to war in order to move along in the Game. Neither Thrones nor Dragon has been able to explain to my satisfaction why every Targaryen—and some non-Targaryens—feels so strongly about this particular lineage. (Flash back to how annoying Daenerys used to get when she would go on about it!)
There may be no there there, because Fire & Blood doesn’t really explain Targaryen supremacy to my satisfaction, either. But their incestuous tradition offers the best possibilities for exploring how such a family’s hubris might play out. In Fire & Blood, there are successful and loving incestuous relationships, but also disasters. Aegon and Helaena, Viserys’ children with Alicent, marry and have an unhappy partnership. They produce twins, each of whom have developmental or physical differences you could attribute to a too-small gene pool—the girl “did not cry, did not smile, did none of the things a babe was meant to do,” and the boy has six fingers on his left hand and six toes on his feet. Rhaenyra’s third child with Daemon is likewise a “monster”—“twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been, and a stubby, scaled tail.” Meanwhile, even as the two factions of the family fight over the succession, the church condemns these intermarriages, and parts of the political world surrounding the Targaryens turn against them.
This taboo tradition, of course, is a metaphor: the Targaryens are so high on their own supply, it becomes their doom. Incest! I certainly don’t endorse it, in real life, but a bit more of it on House of the Dragon could really keep me watching.
House of the Dragon Has an Incest Problem
This show is a snooze. Except…
BY REBECCA ONIONSEPT 22, 202210:15 AM
Back when Jaime and Cersei Lannister were horrifying us on a weekly basis, their twincestuous love affair—defined from the start as evil and corrupting (remember “the things I do for love”?)—was a plot engine for Game of Thrones. The ultimate toxic relationship, the affair defined both characters, showing us their isolation from the rest of the world, highlighting Cersei’s narcissism and Jaime’s pathetically misplaced sense of commitment. To the extent they felt the need to justify themselves at all, Jaime and Cersei always pointed back to the Targaryens and their habit of intermarriage between siblings, cousins, uncles, and nieces.
And now, in House of the Dragon, we’re there. Imagine an entire world full of incestuous couples—people engaged in the ultimate taboo (to viewers, and also to some people in the show’s world), but also in a practice their family endorses as an expression of clan loyalty. That taboo action both stems from and recreates an alternate moral universe, and in theory, that’s quite interesting. But five episodes into the show, we’re not really seeing it. The show is unremarkable in its characters, running a rote playbook of emotional situations—father versus petulant daughter; young wife married to an older king—to move the plot along. That’s why I think House of the Dragon needs more incest. A lot more.
If House of the Dragon wanted to underplay the incestuous element, as it feels so far like it might, it has set itself up for trouble by casting Matt Smith as half of its own keep-it-in-the-family couple. Game of Thrones has never really been good at generating romantic tension (though Jaime and Cersei had their fans). But because Smith, who plays Prince Daemon, is by far the most compelling actor on the show, his scenes with his niece, Princess Rhaenyra (Milly Alcock), have been highly uncomfortable to watch. Readers of romance novels (like myself) may have felt themselves unwillingly and automatically beginning to ship this couple, because these plot grooves are so well-worn in our minds. Here is a willful princess trapped in a dead-end life; here is a dangerous and powerful outsider who knows exactly how bored she is. Here they are meeting in secret, at night. Here they are using a busy dance floor as cover for a whispered conversation. The rest of the room falls away because they have so much chemistry! Oh, dear.
I don’t think I’ll be spoiling to tell you how the show’s source material, George R.R. Martin’s quasi-history of the Targaryens, Fire & Blood, proceeds from here, because I really doubt House of the Dragon will follow suit. (I’m ready to be wrong!) In the book, Rhaenyra, split from Criston Cole, and married to Laenor Valeryon, takes a new lover, Ser Harwin “Breakbones” Strong. She has three sons, who many in court suspect to be fathered by Strong rather than Laenor, because they’re brown-haired and brown-eyed—not silvery, like “real” Targaryens. When Laenor dies (a murder—many suspect Daemon to be the culprit), and Breakbones follows suit (ditto), Rhaenyra secretly marries Daemon. They have two more sons, who are purple-eyed and silver-haired. This is where things stand when the “Dance of Dragons” (the war of succession between Rhaenyra and Alicent and Alicent’s son, Aegon) begins, with Daemon as Rhaeynra’s general.
I would like to see this unfold, not just because I’ve been manipulated into cheering on the progress of a romance between an uncle and a niece (for God’s sake, help me), but because it would really help us nail down why the Targaryens were different. So far, House of the Dragon is a nothingburger in part because the Targaryens seem just like any other Westerosi family, except plus dragons. Everyone in Westeros, we know from years of watching and reading this stuff, is proud of their house and unbending when it comes to advancing its interests, sacrificing daughters to bad marriages and sons to war in order to move along in the Game. Neither Thrones nor Dragon has been able to explain to my satisfaction why every Targaryen—and some non-Targaryens—feels so strongly about this particular lineage. (Flash back to how annoying Daenerys used to get when she would go on about it!)
There may be no there there, because Fire & Blood doesn’t really explain Targaryen supremacy to my satisfaction, either. But their incestuous tradition offers the best possibilities for exploring how such a family’s hubris might play out. In Fire & Blood, there are successful and loving incestuous relationships, but also disasters. Aegon and Helaena, Viserys’ children with Alicent, marry and have an unhappy partnership. They produce twins, each of whom have developmental or physical differences you could attribute to a too-small gene pool—the girl “did not cry, did not smile, did none of the things a babe was meant to do,” and the boy has six fingers on his left hand and six toes on his feet. Rhaenyra’s third child with Daemon is likewise a “monster”—“twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been, and a stubby, scaled tail.” Meanwhile, even as the two factions of the family fight over the succession, the church condemns these intermarriages, and parts of the political world surrounding the Targaryens turn against them.
This taboo tradition, of course, is a metaphor: the Targaryens are so high on their own supply, it becomes their doom. Incest! I certainly don’t endorse it, in real life, but a bit more of it on House of the Dragon could really keep me watching.
I need to rewatch because I was generally bored with last night’s episode.
No spoilers. I would note though that the lack of posts in this thread suggests other HORTers agreed with me...
I enjoyed it. The Jump was a little jarring and took me out at times, but things are moving along. Like I alluded to earlier in this thread, this is a generational story and the final generation is starting to make an appearance. You could almost take the first 5 episodes as a prologue to the series. I've seen discussions that the show runners debated on starting the series where the story starts in episode 5, but I agree that would leave out a lot of context with the main characters.
I guess for my taste, they are covering way too much ground way too fast. I am kind of getting confused. to avoid spoilers:
Rhaenyra was boning Criston for the last couple of episodes. She has kids with black hair which I thought were Criston's but then apparently she dumped him and has been boning the other guard. I can't even remember his name but he's the son of the king's hand. There was this emotional goodbye as he's banished but I'm like who the fook is this guy and why is he creeping on Criston's kids? Then there was a random fire at Harrenhal (I think?) and the big dragon was stolen for a day. I was like, is this when they talked about it in GOT where some big ass dragon melted it killing those inside? And then there was Daemon's wife who committed suicide by dragon. I was trying to figure out why she wanted to kill herself - was it just for having a still born? Didn't she have other kids to look after? I don't know, if I read the books maybe I would like it better but there is so much happening so fast it is hard to keep track of who is who, let alone care about them.
Rhaenyra had kids with Harwin Strong, the son of the hand of the king. He was the captain of the Gold Cloaks, the city watch for King's Landing. Criston broke up with Rhaenyra when she refused to leave for Essos with him and he confessed to Alicent the queen consort. Harwin and Rhaenyra became a thing after he rescued her from the fight that broke out at the wedding feast. The show needed to show a little bit of time with her and him having interest in each other before the time jump, and failing to do this seems to have caused some confusion for you.
The fire at Harrenhal wasn't random. It was set by men freed from execution by the cripple, Larys Strong. These were the men that had their tongues cut off so that they couldn't talk about what they did. The people that died were Lyonel and Harwin Strong. Yes, Larys had his father and brother killed. This fire was not set by a stolen dragon.
This fire is not the famous fire that melted the castle. That particular fire was done by Balerion the Black Dread during Aegon's conquest. Harren Hoare thought he was safe from attack in the massive castle he built, but didn't plan for dragons burning him from above.
Daemon's wife killed herself because she was already going to be dead from childbirth. The baby wasn't coming out and the only other option was to cut it out of her like they tried to do for the first queen earlier this season. She knew that neither her nor the child would survive so she went out quickly with dragon fire.
The fire at Harrenhal wasn't random. It was set by men freed from execution by the cripple, Larys Strong. These were the men that had their tongues cut off so that they couldn't talk about what they did. The people that died were Lyonel and Harwin Strong. Yes, Larys had his father and brother killed. This fire was not set by a stolen dragon.
This fire is not the famous fire that melted the castle. That particular fire was done by Balerion the Black Dread during Aegon's conquest. Harren Hoare thought he was safe from attack in the massive castle he built, but didn't plan for dragons burning him from above.
Daemon's wife killed herself because she was already going to be dead from childbirth. The baby wasn't coming out and the only other option was to cut it out of her like they tried to do for the first queen earlier this season. She knew that neither her nor the child would survive so she went out quickly with dragon fire.
So reading up further, part of Harrenhal has already been melted. I was hoping to see that in this series. Frankly, I think they should have started with the conquest by Aegon, as that would have been interesting to see. Maybe too expensive with CGI though...
Yeah, I felt like it was a confusing episode, especially for those not having read the books.
Rhaenyra was hooking up with Breakbones (brother to clubfoot, son to the hand) in the 10 year jump, he was the one smiling when she was covered in blood returning from the hunt. Its an open secret that her children don't look like their supposed father. Criston was pardon by the queen last episode and his loyalties switched to her.
Clubfoot (Larys) cut the toungues out of the death row inmates and pardoned them as long as they killed his father (the hand) and his bro (Breakbones). He did that as a favor to the queen and also is now the Lord of Harenhall. I don't think any dragons were stolen. Laena (the little girl that they wanted to hook up with the king) grew up and took Vheagar as a dragon. This was really not covered. She had 2 kids with Daemon, but she wanted more action. She was giving birth to another when it went wrong and the Maester said they could cut her open to save the baby. Instead to commits suicide taking the baby along with her, she wanted a "dragon riders death".
I also would love to see that. After this series, I think they will show Aegon's conquest all the way to where House of the Dragon starts. A lot of dramatic events happens, and helps answer a few questions that people have. The realm and churches response to the incest stands out to me.
Aegon's conquest and Robert's Rebellion both would have made for great TV. They both might be better as a mini-series rather than a full show though, almost like a Band of Brothers for Westeros. Robert's Rebellion would be easier from a CG perspective without dragons involved.
It's not going to just be one season or an I mistaken?
3-5 seasons. This is why I’m saying episodes one through five could almost be a prologue.
My ADD couldn't stop me from looking lolz!
Oh shit I did not not realize that. I thought it was a one-season deal where they split young/old characters 50/50. Having another 3 to 4 seasons changes everything, from my perspective.
They casted the adult versions of the characters first, and the children version second and made sure the children versions matched appearances to who theY already cast since it’s the adults we will be spending more time with.
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This all makes sense now. i was thinking to myself before, in my best Chandler Bing voice: "Could this BE any more rushed?"
I haven't gone back since E3 I don't think...was just ducking in here to try to see if it looks like I'm missing anything urgent. Doesn't sound like it. Seems to be mainly a handful of superfans engaged on this show.
At some point I'll catch up at least through the time jump to see if it gets entertaining once more pieces are in place.
Main problem is the lack of giving a shit. GOT was overflowing with colorful, magnetic characters. You could love them, or love to hate them. And sometimes go from one to the other over the course of the show. Couldn't wait to find out what they did or what happened to them next.
I get why it could be exciting to see it brought to life if you are a lover of the books, but for just a regular old GOT viewer, I'm really struggling with enthusiasm to turn in. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to care about any of this?
I mean, I had the same struggle a bit with Succession in terms of why you should care. But that show is relentlessly entertaining in spite of it, with humor, striking characters, snappy dialogue etc.
But this indicates for me that I should stick through the time change. The idea that the adult actors were cast first is interesting, so maybe they will be a little more compelling.
Might be my favorite yet. Aemond is one of my favorites, he’s a badass. Looks like next week is true final time jump as the kids are grown up.
I will admit at the beginning it seemed like a yawner and I don’t know it was supposed to be at dusk or night it was very muted visually. But then oh baby shit got real!
Leaning for Team Daemon/ Rhaenyra, but I have a feeling it's going to be a total shitshow on both sides and I'm gonna just sit back and enjoy watching the world blow up from afar.
In the “book” ie the two separate versions of GRRM’s “history”, there really isn’t a “good” or “bad” side. Both women and their factions are clamoring for power and both sets have ample opportunities to stop the bloodshed at different points and refuse. Of course the first one has already passed (ie Alicent marrying her son into Rhaenyra’s family), but there are other potential stopping points before it becomes a family meat grinder.
The fact that you can even ask the question shows the job that the show runners are doing with this season. It would be too easy to make a show where the viewers all agree with one side of the argument. I think it is probably 60/40 in favor of the blacks over the greens with the fanbase(and the slight unevenness is likely because of the actors more than the story), but that is pretty darn good in terms of letting the audience decide for themselves who they like. That is a tough line to walk as a writer/storyteller.
When do Ryaenyra and Alicent start scissoring???/
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