How far beyond has Iowa fallen?

[BIG10MANIAC]

The Iowa staff didn’t really miss on these kids. The kids grew up.

Not true at all... Sammy Sasso wanted to come to Iowa but said the Iowa Coaches never really put a lot of attention on him and Tom Ryan did so... A lot of the times recruits that want to come to Iowa don't even hear from Tom or Terry.... Tom looks for a certain type of kid that he feels will fit in the Iowa program. I commend him for that but in the ever changing landscape of college wrestling I am just not sure that tactic works anymore..

 

[herkyhawk00]

I think if Goetz is going to tell Kirk Ferentz that he needs to fire his OC, Beth needs to get involved in the wrestling program and tell Tom that both Telford and Morningstar need to be replaced.

 

[iaHki]

I think if Goetz is going to tell Kirk Ferentz that he needs to fire his OC, Beth needs to get involved in the wrestling program and tell Tom that both Telford and Morningstar need to be replaced.

And bring in _____________________ and ________________________?

 

[iaHki]

I feel like a broken record, does this board have a general consensus list? Is it Nolf and Nickel you want to bring in? Taylor?

So far, the only real repeated names are: Askren
Schwab
Metcalf

And literally none of the other coaches of top ten teams.

Come on, let’s make this a dream list. Either who to replace Tom, or what two assistants? This shouldn’t be that difficult, the pool is very small, and this thread is 13 pages long. After your next post, give us a top three.

I’ll start: Casey and Grey agree to be Tom’s assistants.

 

[MSU158]

I feel like a broken record, does this board have a general consensus list? Is it Nolf and Nickel you want to bring in? Taylor?

So far, the only real repeated names are: Askren
Schwab
Metcalf

And literally none of the other coaches of top ten teams.

Come on, let’s make this a dream list. Either who to replace Tom, or what two assistants? This shouldn’t be that difficult, the pool is very small, and this thread is 13 pages long. After your next post, give us a top three.

I’ll start: Casey and Grey agree to be Tom’s assistants.

LMFAO, your candidates are about as likely as Israel and Palestine becoming allies...

 

[Lambertt]

Not true at all... Sammy Sasso wanted to come to Iowa but said the Iowa Coaches never really put a lot of attention on him and Tom Ryan did so... A lot of the times recruits that want to come to Iowa don't even hear from Tom or Terry.... Tom looks for a certain type of kid that he feels will fit in the Iowa program. I commend him for that but in the ever changing landscape of college wrestling I am just not sure that tactic works anymore..

The kids growing up had something to do with it also. Maybe they learned Iowa wasn’t really the way to go.

 

[JBJRFL]

LMFAO, your candidates are about as likely as Israel and Palestine becoming allies...

C'mon MSU, they did say "dream list". Even if it is a pipe dream.

 

[kegan]

I think it's time for a graph, amirite? Below shows # of individual titles over G, Z's, and B tenure. Might not be perfect but directionally correct.

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer included:

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer excluded (he would have won anywhere he went): Complete Flatline, similar to Zalesky's trend

One more view

 

[HawkeyePA]

here is a novel idea... I saw a video clip of an Iranian wrestler just destroying Bo Nipple at a free style tournament and yes i should probably know more of the specifics but it was after i watched a Joe Rogan podcast and i looked up the clip and what a helpless rag doll impersonation was put on by Bo... Why don't we look to the international scene for maybe some different training practices or even some fresh and innovative techniques? I would keep Tom as HC and Mover Terry to the HWC and maybe shift or get some new assistants but bring in some international style and perhaps open up the offense a bit...or a LOT MORE. Look at Gomez for instance, a decent wrestler for the most part but on his feet....In the attacking mode he is extremely dangerous and unpredictable. I just use him as an example not a role model for damn sure. PLUS it was a blast seeing Bo get smoked like a cheap cigarette and was powerless to stop it. AND if you think Dean came to PSU for no money ....then you are as stupid as you sound... he got quite the $$$$$$$$$$ to come fill in a spot so that PSU could win...hell they brought Bergey out of a DR. recommended cranial injury retirement to fill a spot for their lineup... but hey Its all about F3N at F2N state not winning at all costs.

 

[Lambertt]

Was any of this fire the coaches crap going on when Spencer Lee was wrestling?

 

[MSU158]

C'mon MSU, they did say "dream list". Even if it is a pipe dream.

Which is why I compared it to one of the biggest real world dreams there are right now...

 

[Gusaford]

Where am I talking negative about the staff and program? I worked in a corporate structure for many years and came across many different management and leadership styles in my career. Tom Brands is what I said he is, but that does NOT mean he doesn't do a good or great job. People like Tom bring stability but are not innovative people. Over time, younger innovators have a tendency to nibble away around the edges until one day you wake up and someone is eating you lunch. And that is especially true in business, but can be used for this discussion. You are taking all this too personally. I have heard nothing bad about Tom Brands. Sounds like a great guy to have a beer and shoot pool with.

Your need to tout your personal experience in the business world gets a little old. You're not the only one who worked for a living. Lecture less.

 

[Lambertt]

I think it's time for a graph, amirite? Below shows # of individual titles over G, Z's, and B tenure. Might not be perfect but directionally correct.

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer included:

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer excluded (he would have won anywhere he went): Complete Flatline, similar to Zalesky's trend

Good f

I think it's time for a graph, amirite? Below shows # of individual titles over G, Z's, and B tenure. Might not be perfect but directionally correct.

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer included:

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer excluded (he would have won anywhere he went): Complete Flatline, similar to Zalesky's trend

Good fricking grief.

 

[vhsalum]

Was any of this fire the coaches crap going on when Spencer Lee was wrestling?

yes. I said it in 2019 too.

 

[el dub]

No fibbing here. Coached a guy that was an Iowa wrestler, I'm friends with past Iowa wrestlers, some who wrestled under Gable and some who wrestled under Brands. I know some guys who wrestled for Jimmy, but they are more of an acquaintance. I've been told some stories of some brutal practices, but I don't remember any of them sounding as tough as the ones I have been told about Gable's practices. Just have never heard the same negativity that you put out.
I never once thought you would give your name.

Sounds like you were fishing for info that would lead to figuring out his name, imo. Lol

 

[MSU158]

I think it's time for a graph, amirite? Below shows # of individual titles over G, Z's, and B tenure. Might not be perfect but directionally correct.

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer included:

With the generationally gifted talent of Spencer excluded (he would have won anywhere he went): Complete Flatline, similar to Zalesky's trend

Lol, brilliant logic. Let's discredit Brands for bringing in Lee and then dismiss him as "generational" so that it makes our narrative look better....

 

[MSU158]

Sounds like you were fishing for info that would lead to figuring out his name, imo. Lol

Eh, I think it was more fishing for enough info to prove he is legit. Finding out the name in the process would definitely have been an acceptable by-product of said fishing...

 

[kegan]

Lol, brilliant logic. Let's discredit Brands for bringing in Lee and then dismiss him as "generational" so that it makes our narrative look better....

Hard to argue data. Even with the Spencer, it's bad unless the program's standards have changed?

 

[T8KUDWN]

Sounds like you were fishing for info that would lead to figuring out his name, imo. Lol

If I wanted or thought, he would give me his name I would have just asked.
I was more curious on when in Tom's career as head coach at Iowa he was there.

 

[MSU158]

Hard to argue data. Even with the Spencer, it's bad unless the program's standards have changed?

The data is disingenuous when you negate that they have put someone in the Finals EVERY single year and they have produced more AA"s than everyone other than PSU and they were even ahead of PSU until very recently.

Yes, it is ok to knock Brands for the lack of Champs. It is also completely acceptable to expect them on a regular basis. I just think that argument is weak when you use it while completely ignoring how many guys have made the FInals and how many have made the podium...

Put it this way, it is essentially like arguing that any grade less than an A is flat out a failing grade. Wanting and even expecting an A is understandable. Considering anything less than that as abject failure is something I simply rail against...

 

[kegan]

The data is disingenuous when you negate that they have put someone in the Finals EVERY single year and they have produced more AA"s than everyone other than PSU and they were even ahead of PSU until very recently.

Yes, it is ok to knock Brands for the lack of Champs. It is also completely acceptable to expect them on a regular basis. I just think that argument is weak when you use it while completely ignoring how many guys have made the FInals and how many have made the podium...

Put it this way, it is essentially like arguing that any grade less than an A is flat out a failing grade. Wanting and even expecting an A is understandable. Considering anything less than that as abject failure is something I simply rail against...

That's fair. Interpret the data as you like. I think the program can do better. We need a change IMO

 

[MSU158]

blinders

Do you even know what the use of "blinders" means?? In fact, your response is 100% indicative of the type. I gave a very detailed explanation of my stance which completely obliterates the "blinders" mentality. It is 100% factually correct that Iowa has been at the top in producing AA's and even at putting people in the Finals(with the obvious exception of PSU).

YES, they aren't getting guys to the very top at an acceptable clip. That IS an issue that needs to be addressed. I am not disagreeing let alone dismissing that fact. I just hate when it is used as the ONLY fact. It absolutely is disingenous and I gave plenty of reasons why...

 

[MVPFAN]

Not true at all... Sammy Sasso wanted to come to Iowa but said the Iowa Coaches never really put a lot of attention on him and Tom Ryan did so... A lot of the times recruits that want to come to Iowa don't even hear from Tom or Terry.... Tom looks for a certain type of kid that he feels will fit in the Iowa program. I commend him for that but in the ever changing landscape of college wrestling I am just not sure that tactic works anymore..

Tom would be ok if his type consisted mostly of well rounded athletic wrestlers vs one dimensional, short for the weight, slow footed grinders.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I’m not insinuating anything about Brands…just feel like Gable is being mis characterized…and assumptions about “old school” methods are not what truly happened.

Gable is on any coaching Mt. Rushmore there is. He’s probably quite similar to Vince Lombardi in approach. Totally old school in some/most (the best) ways; but revolutionary in other ways.

My favorite Lombardi clip:

 

[wahlberg]

If I wanted or thought, he would give me his name I would have just asked.
I was more curious on when in Tom's career as head coach at Iowa he was there.

In the words of the late great Warren Zevon, I was in the house when the house burned down.

 

[TailgateTom]

Was any of this fire the coaches crap going on when Spencer Lee was wrestling?

In other words, you’re saying it took Spencer Lee to save Tom’s job? How many Spencers are lining up at the door?

To answer your question, yes. For the exact same reasons outlined. Nothing has changed. Nothing ever changes.

 

[PD4thespawn]

I

P

In the words of the late great Warren Zevon, I was in the house when the house burnt down.

You'll have to be more specific.

 

[Fan In Black]

I don’t think Gable coached the way many of you think he did. I thought his most striking characteristic was how open he was to the possibility of improvement and how unafraid he was to consider changing. I think excellence was his highest priority…so high that he wouldn’t allow allegiance to a particular method to move ahead in priority. Despite all his success, he would and does readily state that he should have done things differently. Practices were grueling but not for the purpose of being grueling or serving as some toughness contest. It’s not simple to emulate someone.

this. Just read his books. listen to his interviews. read what other people said about him. Brands doesnt remind me of him at all. The below snippet is a good example. Listening and understanding your athletes.

Also note how he says at first he recruited a mind set, but soon learned he needed physically gifted athletes too. I think about this all the time under the Brands era.

I guess I can't link the video. You can find it on YouTube ' Dan Gable on How To Coach Champions" It's from Lex Fridman podcast.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Do you even know what the use of "blinders" means?? In fact, your response is 100% indicative of the type. I gave a very detailed explanation of my stance which completely obliterates the "blinders" mentality. It is 100% factually correct that Iowa has been at the top in producing AA's and even at putting people in the Finals(with the obvious exception of PSU).

YES, they aren't getting guys to the very top at an acceptable clip. That IS an issue that needs to be addressed. I am not disagreeing let alone dismissing that fact. I just hate when it is used as the ONLY fact. It absolutely is disingenous and I gave plenty of reasons why...

Zalesky also had a finalist every year. That standard alone isn't sufficient for Iowa.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Gable is on any coaching Mt. Rushmore there is. He’s probably quite similar to Vince Lombardi in approach. Totally old school in some/most (the best) ways; but revolutionary in other ways.

My favorite Lombardi clip:

View embedded media

Vince Lombardi sounds just like most fans yelling at their TVs 😂.

Legend though, no doubt.

 

[Lambertt]

In other words, you’re saying it took Spencer Lee to save Tom’s job? How many Spencers are lining up at the door?

To answer your question, yes. For the exact same reasons outlined. Nothing has changed. Nothing ever changes.

Not what I’m saying at all. You said it.

 

[vhsalum]

Vince Lombardi sounds just like most fans yelling at their TVs 😂.

Legend though, no doubt.

But does he sound like KJ ?

 

[MSU158]

Zalesky also had a finalist every year. That standard alone isn't sufficient for Iowa.

Did I list it as the only standard? The AA standard is the compelling one. Zalesky was on a very considerable downward trend. Brands simply is not. The true key difference is PSU has built an unequalled juggernaught that makes Brands pale to in comparsion. That is why many are against Brands. It is hard for most Iowa fans to see their team so far behind another and I DO fully understand why.

I simply do NOT like the lack of Individual Champs being the one and only end all be all statistic to unilatteraly get rid of Brands. Now, that doesn't mean I don't think it needs to be addressed. They absolutley need to find ways to get guys on the top of the podium. I just have my eyes fully opened and see that they aren't light years away from doing that each year either...

 

[Lambertt]

Well good luck to the Hawks in their pursuit of a new head coach.

 

[jneffer]

brands is incredible...maybe even the best...at getting decent to good wrestlers on the podium

brands is average...maybe even below average...at getting good to great wrestlers on top of the podium

 

[ILHawksFan]

I think they need to completely break out of the "Old School Iowa" mold but he does make me wonder. He has had some successful guys and he isn't starting with the cream of the crop plus with way less support and resources. A number of his guys have been pretty offensive and can scramble. He could be like Tom minus the whole we hate everyone and everyone hates us deal. Iowa resources and a coach that doesn't mind running down recruits and to go with that gets along with all the club coaches.

And the door to Askren recruits is at least open to him.

 

[Mat Burn]

here is a novel idea... I saw a video clip of an Iranian wrestler just destroying Bo Nipple at a free style tournament and yes i should probably know more of the specifics but it was after i watched a Joe Rogan podcast and i looked up the clip and what a helpless rag doll impersonation was put on by Bo... Why don't we look to the international scene for maybe some different training practices or even some fresh and innovative techniques? I would keep Tom as HC and Mover Terry to the HWC and maybe shift or get some new assistants but bring in some international style and perhaps open up the offense a bit...or a LOT MORE. Look at Gomez for instance, a decent wrestler for the most part but on his feet....In the attacking mode he is extremely dangerous and unpredictable. I just use him as an example not a role model for damn sure. PLUS it was a blast seeing Bo get smoked like a cheap cigarette and was powerless to stop it. AND if you think Dean came to PSU for no money ....then you are as stupid as you sound... he got quite the $$$$$$$$$$ to come fill in a spot so that PSU could win...hell they brought Bergey out of a DR. recommended cranial injury retirement to fill a spot for their lineup... but hey Its all about F3N at F2N state not winning at all costs.

Sure he would be great. He pinned Kyle Snyder @ the same tourney and got popped for roids in 2015 and served a 5 year ban.

Dayton Fix would do just as well, at least on the roid part.

T and T will leave Iowa on their own terms, as they deserve too.

 

[iaHki]

LMFAO, your candidates are about as likely as Israel and Palestine becoming allies...

I keep looking for the invisible ink to dry to see yours.

 

[iaHki]

That's fair. Interpret the data as you like. I think the program can do better. We need a change IMO

To?

Here’s your chance.

 

[iaHki]

Again, I know I’m a broken record, but let’s play out this scenario.

Big rivals-poster-booster walks into Goetz’s office, “we need a change.”

“Ok, get me a list of the top ten NCAA wrestling teams and their coaches at the upcoming tournament.”

“No, we don’t want any of them, Tom is better than them.”

“Ok, how about an up and coming head coach at a smaller school who is killing it in recruiting?”

“No, none of them are out recruiting PSU either.

“So who?”

“I’m not sure, maybe Askren, because his kids are doing well right now.”

“Would he bring those kids with him?”

“Don’t know, some head to PSU already and none come here. And he won’t have a youth club anymore as a future pipeline.”

“Ok, who else?”

“Schwab.”

“Ex-Iowa wrestler who coached with brands and is at UNI? Anyone else?”

“Don’t know, but we’ve got a thirteen page thread of people who follow wrestling more than you that believe change is necessary. So you pick someone and then we’ll let you know afterward what we think. Don’t screw it up.”