Illinois Dual Thread

[GableEdge]

Seems that many of our guys have a hard part pulling the trigger. I think a lot of it comes down to many of them not trusting a scramble situation against good comp. Exception are guys like Spencer and Woods.

 

[Muscles1989]

I knew I was going to miss Austin Desanto wrestling but had no idea how much.

so true, dam he was fun and what iowa should be

 

[Exo]

Positive spin:

Many of us, my self included, bitch about us peaking in January or prior to Nationals, in years past. IE beating PSU in duals, Kem over Starocci, Eierman over Lee at B10's in recent terms. This needs to be a wake up call to the athletes to begin to peak or get fire lit under ass.

I think we owe it to Warner to not overreact with him. He is lights out at NCAA's in his 3 visits.

If we have Woods wrestle last night the dual isn't as close and we're all disappointed but not suicidal.


The not so positives:

I'm cautiously excited about Teske but not expecting a whole bunch there. Worried about strength at 133 but I'll let him prove me wrong. Cullan just ain't it.

Siebrecht is a good story but that's a true hole for us.

Nelson... The coaches HAVE to be at least asking him to take a few shots right? Is that message just not getting through? Its one thing if you're winning close matches that way but we're not even winning them. I reckon Swafford should be getting a few duals.

 

[MVPFAN]

Seems that many of our guys have a hard part pulling the trigger. I think a lot of it comes down to many of them not trusting a scramble situation against good comp. Exception are guys like Spencer and Woods.

And that boils down to who they recruit. If you recruit grinder types, if you recruit position and hand fight guys then that's what you end up with.

 

[MVPFAN]

Positive spin:

Many of us, my self included, bitch about us peaking in January or prior to Nationals, in years past. IE beating PSU in duals, Kem over Starocci, Eierman over Lee at B10's in recent terms. This needs to be a wake up call to the athletes to begin to peak or get fire lit under ass.

I think we owe it to Warner to not overreact with him. He is lights out at NCAA's in his 3 visits.

If we have Woods wrestle last night the dual isn't as close and we're all disappointed but not suicidal.


The not so positives:

I'm cautiously excited about Teske but not expecting a whole bunch there. Worried about strength at 133 but I'll let him prove me wrong. Cullan just ain't it.

Siebrecht is a good story but that's a true hole for us.

Nelson... The coaches HAVE to be at least asking him to take a few shots right? Is that message just not getting through? Its one thing if you're winning close matches that way but we're not even winning them. I reckon Swafford should be getting a few duals.

Unfortunately I don't see Swafford as an upgrade. I think Ruth probably wins more comfortably vs him. Reality is we are not getting meaningful points from 133, 157, 174 and I don't expect much from 184.

 

[el dub]

Seems that many of our guys have a hard part pulling the trigger. I think a lot of it comes down to many of them not trusting a scramble situation against good comp. Exception are guys like Spencer and Woods.

Spencer and Woods? Prolly the two highest ranked recruits on the team. We need more like them, eh?

 

[cheaptilt42]

O'Toole, Griffith, Carr, Monday, Hamiti, Amine, Ramirez: which three will PK finish ahead of at NCAAs?

Warner was limping significantly at the end of the match.

It was a "I just laid a giant egg" limp,

 

[el dub]

It was a "I just laid another giant egg" limp,

FIFY

 

[slushhead]

The sport has evolved immensely since the days of Gable and Brands. Youth development is better, scouting/tape is better, exercise & diet science is better . . .

It’s not good enough anymore to simply “be tough”. Recruits are coming in more skilled, polished, and dynamic than ever, and so the question becomes: how do you build on that to facilitate growth in the wrestler? Sure, being a relentless dog-on-a-bone can be part of the formula, but much more is needed to keep up with the Joneses. The coaching staffs that are innovative and adaptive will be the ones to progress, and dinosaurs will be left behind. That’s pretty much true for most aspects of society.

Generally, dynamic wrestling is a must in this day and age. Staffs that have the flexibility to promote it and the technical ability to teach it will be the most successful.

 

[MitchLL]

The lack of scoring in the 1st period isn't new...outside of a couple guys.

I don't know how you fix that?

That's a recruiting issue.

 

[Bones Malone]

I don't know about that, but I sure feel like our wrestlers just aren't showing a significant amount of improvement during their years at Iowa. Spencer is still the freshman Spencer who rocked the world as a freshmen. Cass is a lighter version but still about the same level, though I'm hoping he will get to the finals and bring home the gold. Murin is R12 every year but hoping this is his year to AA. Brands? No better. Assad? Higher winning percentage this year, but has only faced one really good opponent in Coleman (a loss). Warner? Made finals last year but looks very average now (faced two quality opponents and lost to them both). I think PK looks good already and am hoping he can improve. Am I missing anyone? All of that said, our incoming recruits look really good and I'm hoping we can make them better, but based on past results I just don't know. And know that I'm not in the TnT needs to go camp. I think we have the best available coaches so thinking or talking about replacing them is silly. But I do think we need to quit inbreeding. Quit hiring our guys who just graduated and get some new fricking blood in here. There are wrestlers from other schools who are winning individual championships, some of them multiple times. Let's get some of those guys into our system. Let's see what some new blood can bring to the our program. TnT cannot do it all. They can't wrestle with JWAR and get him better; they can't spar with Assad. We need to bring in some power hammers to work with our guys in the room...at least that's what sounds logical to me. But then again, I don't have anywhere near the subject matter expertise that most of you have, nor do I ever get access to the room so I don't know what's going on in there. But I do know what's not going on, and that's improvement in our offense. Right now we look very mediocre for an Iowa team and in my opinion it's because at many weights we are showing zero interest in scoring points...even against much weaker opponents.

This was a fair summary. Closely echoes frustration shared with my wife during 75 min drive home from IC. Lots of brutally tough love coming from many loyal Hawk fans. Truth hurts but I too believe “Iowa Style” — well conditioned athletes wrestling aggressive/offensively & with confidence is lacking at most weights. With the positives in recruiting, hopefully we can find “ourselves” but in the meantime it’s exhausting, in a boring, non-offensive sort of way (think football). I felt the number of empty seats, considering a sell/out on a Friday night says a lot…

 

[IAChief32]

I hate to pile on here, because you guys are doing just fine. But I will add my sense of frustration when, during Cass's match, the coaches are apparently telling Cass to keep riding him and get the stall-out, while Ironside is shouting, "Don't just ride him! Let him up! Go feet to back!" Two very different coaching philosophies, two very different style matches. Tonight was Fan Appreciation Night for chess lovers.

Hard disagree with Ironside. Cass body locks are not 50/50 but there are risks...we almost saw it on the first one. Was happy the coaches made an unconventional call instead of automatically choosing down. Illinois was done and we needed just one more stall call. Happy with the ref and the stall calls

 

[el dub]

This was a fair summary. Closely echoes frustration shared with my wife during 75 min drive home from IC. Lots of brutally tough love coming from many loyal Hawk fans. Truth hurts but I too believe “Iowa Style” — well conditioned athletes wrestling aggressive/offensively & with confidence is lacking at most weights. With the positives in recruiting, hopefully we can find “ourselves” but in the meantime it’s exhausting, in a boring, non-offensive sort of way (think football). I felt the number of empty seats, considering a sell/out on a Friday night says a lot…

I just about turned it off before the dual was finished. It was boring for the most part.

We only have three guys on the team capable of consistently performing at a level needed to be successful in March.

 

[A Fist Full of Hawkeyes]

Hard disagree with Ironside. Cass body locks are not 50/50 but there are risks...we almost saw it on the first one. Was happy the coaches made an unconventional call instead of automatically choosing down. Illinois was done and we needed just one more stall call. Happy with the ref and the stall calls

This is what I started thinking about last night.
The DQ was the safest way to lock up a dual win. It was boring, sure, but the same result nonetheless.
We all want to see Cass cut him and go for the pin, but he's also shown more than a few times in his career he can lose those positions and get stuck himself.

The more I think about it the more I'm fine with the stall-out. And you're right, seeing the immediate in-match unconventional calls was good. Hope to see more of it from now one.

 

[el dub]

Unfortunately I don't see Swafford as an upgrade. I think Ruth probably wins more comfortably vs him. Reality is we are not getting meaningful points from 133, 157, 174 and I don't expect much from 184.

I’d add in 149 and 165 as well.

 

[Auger]

Oh yeah, 9.9 scholarships can really be spread around. FYI - they likely don't mean jackshit for a D1 wrestler.
And most of these guys that are now starting were backups to our former AA's.
Unless your PSU, no big recruit is going to come in and ride the pine for a couple years before they get a chance to crack the starting lineup.

Covid helped us to a title, but also set us back when everyone decided to return for an extra year, which was 5 starters, now we're seeing that end result.

You should give them another year or two before saying the recruiting strategy doesn't work considering the big names we have coming in.

And also don't discredit their ability in the transfer portal so far. It's been clutch and that changes everything.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but Iowa typically doesn't pull in classes like the incoming one often (assuming Jesuroga still comes). If Iowa wants to compete with PSU they need to pull in classes like this 2 out of 3 years. Right now Iowa can only compete with PSU when they don't have their 4-5 bonus point machines. Which isn't very often. Iowa trys to gets 80% of their guys into AA status with little scoring with 1-2 champs and win that way. PSU has 4-5 legit bonus pt champion caliber guys mixed with a couple AA type guys and easily win championships.

 

[el dub]

This is what I started thinking about last night.
The DQ was the safest way to lock up a dual win. It was boring, sure, but the same result nonetheless.
We all want to see Cass cut him and go for the pin, but he's also shown more than a few times in his career he can lose those positions and get stuck himself.

The more I think about it the more I'm fine with the stall-out. And you're right, seeing the immediate in-match unconventional calls was good. Hope to see more of it from now one.

I’m not a catch and release fan, in general, and didn’t want to see Cass cut him and go for pin. Just wanted to see him work on another combo to put the kid on his back. That’s all.

 

[artradley]

Iowa trys to gets 80% of their guys into AA status with little scoring with 1-2 champs and win that way.

I generally agree with your assessment, but when was the last time Iowa succeeded with the “or two champs” part of the equation? It’s not just that they aren’t setting their recruiting goals high enough, they aren’t succeeding with those lower goals.

We don’t get high enough talent, and we don’t progress the talent we have.

 

[JonThePants]

Imagine being either one of the two Illinois wrestling fans. You've got a chance to upset the #2 team in the nation at their own place and your final hope gets DQd for being a little B.

 

[MVPFAN]

I’d add in 149 and 165 as well.

Unfortunately you may be correct but I'm holding out hope on those 2.

 

[choosenuetral]

Seems that many of our guys have a hard part pulling the trigger. I think a lot of it comes down to many of them not trusting a scramble situation against good comp. Exception are guys like Spencer and Woods.

I agree. Does TNT still push the 20-30 min live goes? I remember when Jake Herbert came back from a training session in Eastern Europe somewhere he said that he likes their style of only going live for the max time a match would last. You’ll fight like you train. If you’re going live for 20 minutes straight you’ll stay in position and hope to break the person but you won’t take risks. I haven’t wrestled and certainly haven’t coached in college, but Herbert seemed to be on to something with that observation.

 

[Inthecircle]

My 10 year old Grandson said we were “sloppy” we missed our takedowns, chicken wings and half Nelson. He’s been wrestling for 2 months. We had a great time.

Brands had two good opportunities to finish single legs against Ruth. He didn’t.
Ruth is good.

Warner was favoring his bad knee the whole match. I am not making excuses, I saw what I saw. The injury season is in full swing now, per usual.

As a team we are not good at scrambling and are uncomfortable being there. Kem Dawg is the only guy I can think of who didn’t make me feel scared in scramble situations over the last several years. Young was ok.

Iowa wrestling just isn’t exciting to watch, especially if you have been a fan for 40 years.
We lack quickness, explosiveness and athleticism.
We knew this year was a rebuild.
I am also very confident we’ll finish 2nd this year.

 

[el dub]

Unfortunately you may be correct but I'm holding out hope on those 2.

Why not? Anything can happen in March. Thanks for showing me the possibilities.

 

[pablow]

The sport has evolved immensely since the days of Gable and Brands. Youth development is better, scouting/tape is better, exercise & diet science is better . . .

It’s not good enough anymore to simply “be tough”. Recruits are coming in more skilled, polished, and dynamic than ever, and so the question becomes: how do you build on that to facilitate growth in the wrestler? Sure, being a relentless dog-on-a-bone can be part of the formula, but much more is needed to keep up with the Joneses. The coaching staffs that are innovative and adaptive will be the ones to progress, and dinosaurs will be left behind. That’s pretty much true for most aspects of society.

Generally, dynamic wrestling is a must in this day and age. Staffs that have the flexibility to promote it and the technical ability to teach it will be the most successful.

Iowa under Gable had the most offensive teams (i.e., wrestlers) in NCAA history. Being "tough" was only a means to score points. Standing around in ties and aimlessly grinding were not features of Iowa wrestling under Gable. This myth needs to die.

 

[baccafarmer]

…... East coast and major city teams have a huge advantage. And with the new schools entering the B10, more kids on the west coast will be staying home.

NIL’s in wrestling are impossibly hard to come by in metropolitan areas. In places like NYC, PHilly, DC, …… wrestling hardly registers at all with viewers. In less populated areas, wrestlers at least have a chance to pick up a couple of thousand bucks with car dealers, pizza shops, and small service companies.

 

[baccafarmer]

I think as leaders of men and ambassadors of the iowa program, TNT are great in that aspect. You can tell our wrestlers respect and enjoy them as coaches and know they will 100% have their back. Their track record of developing light weights is irrefutable as well. But anyone that is honest with themselves can see they lack developing guys at the heavier weights, specific match game planning is weak, and our team as a whole is not very good at scrambling. The general philosophy of hand fighting and conditioning is outdated and needs a change. It seems our guys are scared to shoot against equal opponents because they feel they’re at a disadvantage if they don’t finish quickly and cleanly.
It’s time to take a hard look at finding a middle/upper weight coach from outside of the program that has a track record of developing guys at those weights and someone that can coach 50/50 positions into 70/30 positions for our guys.

Jason Nolf would look good in the Iowa room ….. and produce a sizable quiver in State College. Unfortunately TNT are too proud to admit “the enemy” into their midst.

 

[Auger]

I generally agree with your assessment, but when was the last time Iowa succeeded with the “or two champs” part of the equation? It’s not just that they aren’t setting their recruiting goals high enough, they aren’t succeeding with those lower goals.

We don’t get high enough talent, and we don’t progress the talent we have.

That's what I am saying. TnT have taken the approach of taking mid range ranked guys in the hopes they can coach up 80% of their lineup to AA status with 1-2 high end recruits being bonus pt champion caliber wrestlers. However all to often those guys hit ceilings too early in their careers and fail to develop past fringe AA status or their high end guys developing into top 3 finishers. Iowa isn't producing enough champion caliber wrestlers nor are they producing enough AA's for that strategy to work.

PSU on the other hand goes all in on having 4-5 high end bonus pt machines that will finish as champions or top 3. They then hope to develop 2 other AA type wrestlers each year. If they have this they don't care if the rest of the lineup picks up 0-1pts. They can have 2-4 holes in their lineup where Iowa can't.

When we won our last championship which should have been back to back if not for covid it wasn't beacuse Iowa rose to levels where PSU is at their best. It was because PSU came back down to where they're at their worst. Iowa has yet to compete at the PSU championship levels and raise that bar. For that to happen the startegy needs to change.

 

[TarpHawk]

I generally agree with your assessment, but when was the last time Iowa succeeded with the “or two champs” part of the equation? It’s not just that they aren’t setting their recruiting goals high enough, they aren’t succeeding with those lower goals.

We don’t get high enough talent, and we don’t progress the talent we have.

Haven't had 2 champs since 2010.

 

[PinDoxRico]

Unfortunately I don't see Swafford as an upgrade. I think Ruth probably wins more comfortably vs him. Reality is we are not getting meaningful points from 133, 157, 174 and I don't expect much from 184.

We wrestled Ruth (and Braunagel) both at WTT this past summer.

Not trying to say or imply anything about Nelson, for I think Nelson has battled more adversity than I will ever know this year and truly think if he was just 1.) healthy and 2.) more confident in his own freakishly good natural athleticism and skills that some of these results for him may be different this year and there’s still plenty of time for him to get there…

I just have to disagree with your statement that we’d get defeated more comfortably vs. him… That’s a dude Brennan pinned in a minute last summer… and it’s a dude Nelson can beat at the end of the year if he puts things together the way he’s capable.

 

[OILCHECKER]

Positive spin:

Many of us, my self included, bitch about us peaking in January or prior to Nationals, in years past. IE beating PSU in duals, Kem over Starocci, Eierman over Lee at B10's in recent terms. This needs to be a wake up call to the athletes to begin to peak or get fire lit under ass.

I think we owe it to Warner to not overreact with him. He is lights out at NCAA's in his 3 visits.

If we have Woods wrestle last night the dual isn't as close and we're all disappointed but not suicidal.


The not so positives:

I'm cautiously excited about Teske but not expecting a whole bunch there. Worried about strength at 133 but I'll let him prove me wrong. Cullan just ain't it.

Siebrecht is a good story but that's a true hole for us.

Nelson... The coaches HAVE to be at least asking him to take a few shots right? Is that message just not getting through? Its one thing if you're winning close matches that way but we're not even winning them. I reckon Swafford should be getting a few duals.

What if this is their peak for some of these guys?

 

[OILCHECKER]

We wrestled Ruth (and Braunagel) both at WTT this past summer.

Not trying to say or imply anything about Nelson, for I think Nelson has battled more adversity than I will ever know this year and truly think if he was just 1.) healthy and 2.) more confident in his own freakishly good natural athleticism and skills that some of these results for him may be different this year and there’s still plenty of time for him to get there…

I just have to disagree with your statement that we’d get defeated more comfortably vs. him… That’s a dude Brennan pinned in a minute last summer… and it’s a dude Nelson can beat at the end of the year if he puts things together the way he’s capable.

"We"? Lol.

 

[LaxHawk174]

Just wanted to put the numbers out for visual reference in accordance with the above discussion on talent and finalists.

Iowa
2007 (8th) - 1 Finalist - 1 Champ: Mark Perry 165
2008 (1st) - 3 Finalists - 2 Champs: (Slaton 133(2) - Metcalf 149(1) - Perry 165(1))
2009 (1st) - 1 Finalist - 0 Champs: Brent Metcalf 149
2010 (1st) - 5 Finalists - 3 Champs: (McDonough 125(1) - Dennis 133(2) - Marion 141(2) - Metcalf 149(1) -Borschel 174(1)
2011 (3rd) - 1 Finalist - 0 Champs: Matt McDonough 125
2012 (3rd) - 3 Finalist - 1 Champ: (McDonough 125(1) - Marion 141(2) - St. John 157(2))
2013 (4th) - 2 Finalists - 1 Champ: (Ramos 133(2) - St. John 157(1))
2014 (4th) - 1 Finalist - 1 Champ: Tony Ramos 133
2015 (2nd) - 1 Finalist - 0 Champs: Cory Clark 133
2016 (5th) - 3 Finalists - 0 Champs: (Gilman 125(2) - Clark 133(2) - Sorensen 149(2))
2017 (4th) - 1 Finalist - 1 Champ: Cory Clark 133
2018 (3rd) - 1 Finalist - 1 Champ: Spencer Lee 125
2019 (4th) - 1 Finalist - 1 Champ: Spencer Lee 125
2020 (x) ---
2021 (1st) - 3 Finalists - 1 Champ: (Lee 125(1) - Eierman 141(2) - Kemerer 174(2))
2022 (3rd) - 1 Finalist - 0 Champs: Jacob Warner 197

I agree that under the Brands era, the goal model (right or wrong) has typically been 2-3 finalist bonus boint types with 1-2 champs, and a solid supporting cast of multiple AA's. (As discussed the PSU model is 5 finalist bonus point studs with 1-2 supporting cast of AA's affording themselves 3-4 holes comfortably.)

6 out of 15 years with multiple finalists, Winning 3 out of those 6 years.

2009 being an anomaly year able to win with 1 finalist and no champs.

2 years with multiple champs, we won both times.

Unfortunately for us, 2020 probably would have been a multi-finalist, and likely multi-champ year with a win. (Lee-Lugo-Kemerer... possibly Marinelli as well this was the best he ever looked in his career).

The multi-finalist years that we lost, we didn't have the supporting cast. And some years when we had the necessary supporting cast to win, just lacked the 1-2 finalist bonus point studs to put us over the top.

 

[PinDoxRico]

"We"? Lol.

Bad habit I need to get out of! 😆 Grew up hearing my dad and uncles talk that way at the dinner table during holidays… everything in our family was “we” 😆… I know, it’s silly.

 

[dtripp26]

"We"? Lol.

Why do you hate your family?

 

[OILCHECKER]

Why do you hate your family?

I don't. I hate your family.

 

[MVPFAN]

We wrestled Ruth (and Braunagel) both at WTT this past summer.

Not trying to say or imply anything about Nelson, for I think Nelson has battled more adversity than I will ever know this year and truly think if he was just 1.) healthy and 2.) more confident in his own freakishly good natural athleticism and skills that some of these results for him may be different this year and there’s still plenty of time for him to get there…

I just have to disagree with your statement that we’d get defeated more comfortably vs. him… That’s a dude Brennan pinned in a minute last summer… and it’s a dude Nelson can beat at the end of the year if he puts things together the way he’s capable.

This isn't last summer and this isn't freestyle.

 

[manatree]

The problem i see is that everyone else has caught Iowa for dibs on what’s left after PSU chooses. NIL has changed everything. East coast and major city teams have a huge advantage. And with the new schools entering the B10, more kids on the west coast will be staying home.

Staying home to do what? There’s a better chance of Iowa adding water polo than UCLA & USC adding wrestling.

 

[Sdwrestler_20]

We wrestled Ruth (and Braunagel) both at WTT this past summer.

Not trying to say or imply anything about Nelson, for I think Nelson has battled more adversity than I will ever know this year and truly think if he was just 1.) healthy and 2.) more confident in his own freakishly good natural athleticism and skills that some of these results for him may be different this year and there’s still plenty of time for him to get there…

I just have to disagree with your statement that we’d get defeated more comfortably vs. him… That’s a dude Brennan pinned in a minute last summer… and it’s a dude Nelson can beat at the end of the year if he puts things together the way he’s capable.

I agree with you on this. Ruth is currently ranked to place this year and we (Nelson and Brennan) can definitely beat him. Yes, Nelson needs to be more offensive and trust his athleticism more but he is definitely capable of beating everyone at the weight outside of the top 3 or 4 guys.

 

[MVPFAN]

Put me in the camp of ready for a coaching change I could maybe go with the addition of a mid to upper weight guy with scrambling ability and mat skills but a complete overhaul might be in order. I'm sure the position would get plenty of interest. I don't see another team title under status quo Brands. They have too many weak points to their coaching game to get it done from recruiting to technique to strength and conditioning and the childish corner behavior looks worse and worse when the product looks worse. It's boring wrestling and empty talking points.

 

[PinDoxRico]

This isn't last summer and this isn't freestyle.

Lol, I am very Aware of that…

Still not enough evidence to for me to assume the role of “red headed step child” territory had we wrestled against him.
I think Nelson beats him next time, but I’m optimistic to a fault, so that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.