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Iowa high school baseball.

lol Kuemper doesn't recruit. Kids rarely transfer into Kuemper from Carroll High, it's usually the other way around. It's also a K-12 school, which makes recruiting kind of difficult. You're either in the Carroll system or Kuemper system from kindergarten. Baseball is kind of a big sport in Carroll in general, with high participation. It also helps that there are like 15 super small surrounding towns whose kids go to either Kuemper or Carroll.

Recruiting is probably a bigger factor in the larger cities (Des Moines, Iowa City, Ames, etc.) like it is here in Omaha.
 
I know at least two very good public school athletes that a local private school offered "tuition assistance" to in exchange for their enrollment.

...and before anyone says that tuition assistance is offered to non-athletes, there's a reason I put it in quotes.
 
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Bulldogs1974 said:
Biggest difference is size of the talent pool. Schools from towns of 100k playing towns of 1000 people. What's the difference?
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There are other factors that come from the size disparity. Access to quality feeder programs at an early age is 1. Quality coaching pool size is another. Opportunities to attract, support, and retain the families of the better athletes is another. The ability of the athletes (especially pre driving) to have access to the schools training facilities yet another.

This all happens up through 3A. Depending which metro population definition you use Assumption has a metro population pool of 380,000 or 470,000. Harlan has 4,900.

It is no coincidence that the only public school to win in the state tourney was 4A Johnston which shares the same largest metro pool in the state as the private school (Dowling) they were playing.
 
Tom Paris said:
I can tell you that I know for a fact Assumption baseball recruits. I know 3 of their coaches pretty well. They recruited the Buetel kid from North. So basically your guarantees suck. I just asked and they have 2-3 kids on the team who live in Illinois.

Like in the other thread, I have less of a problem with recruiting than I do playing and winning a 4A league and then dropping down in the playoffs when you play with big city talent, and smashing small towns.
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Well if they are open about recruiting then the IAHSAA has to come in and do something about it. I would make them play up a class if they are openly talking about it. For coaches to go around "bragging" about recruiting is not smart. I would also maybe penalize the school if they are in fact recruiting. Do you have concrete evidence (video tape) or something of these coaches saying such things?

What about open enrollment? I have heard of players open enrolling, is that different than recruiting?
 
Tom Paris said:
I can tell you that I know for a fact Assumption baseball recruits. I know 3 of their coaches pretty well. They recruited the Buetel kid from North. So basically your guarantees suck. I just asked and they have 2-3 kids on the team who live in Illinois.

Like in the other thread, I have less of a problem with recruiting than I do playing and winning a 4A league and then dropping down in the playoffs when you play with big city talent, and smashing small towns.
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Well if they are open about recruiting then the IAHSAA has to come in and do something about it. I would make them play up a class if they are openly talking about it. For coaches to go around "bragging" about recruiting is not smart. I would also maybe penalize the school if they are in fact recruiting. Do you have concrete evidence (video tape) or something of these coaches saying such things?

What about open enrollment? I have heard of players open enrolling, is that different than recruiting?
 
Of course private schools recruit. Heck, in Iowa City, they advertise in the newspaper "You deserve to wear the crown". They don't have a guaranteed student/income stream like a public school. When you are a parent at Regina, you are responsible to encourage other families to enroll their kids. If those schools only relied on the "legacy" families, they would go broke.

The reason that those schools show up time and again in State tournaments has more to do with team than talent.
 
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DavenportHawk8 said:
Well if they are open about recruiting then the IAHSAA has to come in and do something about it. I would make them play up a class if they are openly talking about it. For coaches to go around "bragging" about recruiting is not smart. I would also maybe penalize the school if they are in fact recruiting. Do you have concrete evidence (video tape) or something of these coaches saying such things?

What about open enrollment? I have heard of players open enrolling, is that different than recruiting?
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I didn't say they brag. They just acknowledge they do. One said, "I coach there and absolutely we recruit."
 
What's the bid deal who recruits whom? This is high school sports. Nobody should feel entitled to anything except fair officiating within a game.
 
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ICParrent said:
Of course private schools recruit. Heck, in Iowa City, they advertise in the newspaper "You deserve to wear the crown". They don't have a guaranteed student/income stream like a public school. When you are a parent at Regina, you are responsible to encourage other families to enroll their kids. If those schools only relied on the "legacy" families, they would go broke.

The reason that those schools show up time and again in State tournaments has more to do with team than talent.
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I've change my mine on this I agree it is the team and not talent I don't think Regina has had a kid other than a kicker play in a D1 football game im probably wrong but I can't remember one
 
hawkssox1 said:
My ex always had to get in the last word I bet you are related?
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Tom Paris said:
I didn't say they brag. They just acknowledge they do. One said, "I coach there and absolutely we recruit."
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So do they offer full rides? Are there partial scholarships available? Do they recruit in women sports? Im just curious.

If they tell parent A "your child is good, he should go here." Are the parents signing a letter of intent? OR are they suggesting the kid to come and the parents are paying the $$ for the child to attend? Im confused on the whole situation.

How is this different from larger schools telling students to "open enroll" from anther district? Is that considered recruiting?
 
Bulldogs1974 said:
Good lord you are comparing Des Moines vs Des Moines and fort dodge vs Iowa city. Most of us are arguing a Calmar vs Iowa city.
Greater numbers tend te equalize the playing field. A town of 1,200 vs 90k is completly different.
Newman is in a town of 30k. Carroll is a large enough town to support a 2A and 3a school. How many titles does carrol hs have? Like I said it doesn't take but a couple kids to move to completely change a sport for an entire class. People like to say "most" of the private school kids went to school there their entire lives. Two good athletes replacing two crappy one will change and team. Carrol and even Algona are large enough to support that.
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"Good Lord"? The OP is complaining about the Catholic schools in all four classes, and someone recommended putting them all in 4A. And I'm the one deserving the derision?

I'm not even sure what you think you are claiming. Algona has 5,500 people, and Bishop Garrigan probably has 100 students. One kid moving from Algona to BG somehow unlevels the playing field?

And even if it did, how exactly is that a problem? Are you pretending that athletes from rural areas don't "move" to the bigger ones for more athletic opportunities?

Des Moines vs. Des Moines is a ridiculous complaint by you when it is comparing Johnston vs. Dowling (or Valley), when the funding levels are completely uneven. Or the other CIML teams that aren't in Des Moines. It ain't fair, what is your point. Johnston won, even with being the lesser-advantaged school, they were just the better team.
 
ghost80 said:

^^^^^^Nailed it. The issue is the privates (with the exception of 4A) schedule up during the regular season and then actually play a weaker schedule during the playoffs. Could the publics play up? Not as likely in the smaller classes even if they wanted to due largely to geography. The privates sit in an oasis of the metro areas while the public counterparts are often near county wide schools who are already facing a lot of travel to play teams of their own size.

Let the publics and privates play together during the regular season but I'd split them in the post season and make 2 private classes. Big and little.
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For what purpose? So that privates win less and publics win more? Is this even a problem? What are the statistics for state champions in baseball between the two distinctions?

Your real issue is money (i.e. travel). Rich schools do better than poor schools. That ain't a newsflash, and it occurs even without "private" designation - see: Valley, West, Bettendorf, etc.
 
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ghost80 said:
It is no coincidence that the only public school to win in the state tourney was 4A Johnston which shares the same largest metro pool in the state as the private school (Dowling) they were playing.
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How is that "no coincidence" when just last year plenty of non-private, non-DM schools won?
 
Basketball is a sport where one player can completely change a team. Over the last decade in basketball you've had private schools win the championship twice in 1A, five times in 2A (same school), seven times in 3A, and zero times in 4A. That means they have won 35% of the championships. Less than 10% of students in Iowa enroll at a private school and that's probably about the same ratio for public vs private high schools. Seems to be a bit of an outlier to me.
 
HawkAttackDial911 said:
Basketball is a sport where one player can completely change a team. Over the last decade in basketball you've had private schools win the championship twice in 1A, five times in 2A (same school), seven times in 3A, and zero times in 4A. That means they have won 35% of the championships. Less than 10% of students in Iowa enroll at a private school and that's probably about the same ratio for public vs private high schools. Seems to be a bit of an outlier to me.
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I think we need Congressional hearings this is getting out of hand.;)
 
SSG T said:
I know for a fact that there are a couple of smaller private schools with great basketball teams whose players didn't go to those schools from K-12. Both are in the DSM are and both have had numerous transfers in over the last 4-5 years of kids who are really good ballplayers.

I don't think privates schools should be separate, however I'd be good with a multiplier. They have a distinct advantage in that they can pull from a much greater area than most public schools. Considering we're talking about something that ahouldn't have the emphasis it does in society, we shouldn't be rewarding teams for gIving themselves an advantage.

And I say that as someone who very nearly sent my twins to one of the schools I mentioned above.
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This. It's no secret. All private schools have to recruit. Every single student is recruited. That is not a problem whatsoever.

The problem is that almost every single one of them are located in 3A or 4A size towns. They just simply have much much more inventory from which to pull students from. It's inevitable that they are going to get many more High achievers.

Western Christian is a real aberration in this whole thing. They are in an area in which you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a decent-sized town. It's just different there. But it ends up being similar to the situation I just described of having private schools in 3A and 4A size towns competing against a, 1A and 2A sized schools
 
People liked to bring up Solon and their Dynasty as an example of public schools basically getting the same advantages as the privates.

However, Solon grew to the point where they were moved up to 3a simply by virtue of their enrollment. Problem solved. That just doesn't generally happen in private schools.
 
HawkAttackDial911 said:
Basketball is a sport where one player can completely change a team. Over the last decade in basketball you've had private schools win the championship twice in 1A, five times in 2A (same school), seven times in 3A, and zero times in 4A. That means they have won 35% of the championships. Less than 10% of students in Iowa enroll at a private school and that's probably about the same ratio for public vs private high schools. Seems to be a bit of an outlier to me.
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I'm not as familiar with basketball, but I'd wager that the 2A school and the 3A schools winning 50-70% aren't based on any sort of recruiting. Money, sure, yes. Time and support, absolutely. I doubt recruiting, especially in 2A.
 
Mattski said:
Don't tell me they don't recruit, bc some absolutely do. I've had conversations with parents who have been on the receiving end of it.
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All private schools recruit every student. That is not a problem. And it's not a problem for public schools to recruit.
 
HawkAttackDial911 said:
seven times in 3A
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3A is where the problem lies. Wahlert, Xavier, Assumption.

They all play 4A schedules and have 4A resources (larger cities, money, possible "recruiting"). Then they drop down because of enrollment to 3A for state playoffs ... and do very well.
 
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theIowaHawk said:
I'm not as familiar with basketball, but I'd wager that the 2A school and the 3A schools winning 50-70% aren't based on any sort of recruiting.
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I would wager 3A is where most of the "recruiting" happens.

Xavier, Assumption, and Wahlert should all play 4A imo.
 
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DavenportHawk8 said:
So do they offer full rides? Are there partial scholarships available? Do they recruit in women sports? Im just curious.

If they tell parent A "your child is good, he should go here." Are the parents signing a letter of intent? OR are they suggesting the kid to come and the parents are paying the $$ for the child to attend? Im confused on the whole situation.

How is this different from larger schools telling students to "open enroll" from anther district? Is that considered recruiting?
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There are families who pay some and there are families who pay zero or close to it, and a parent with a ton of influence - and I know this isn't a coach in this case - was really trying to get our daughter over there. Talked to us off and on about it for a couple of years.

Actually signing something? That I don't know. I think in girls sports they don't have to actually recruit because they are rolling in basically every girls' sport and people want their kids to be part of that. They do a very nice job with their youth programs also...getting kids to want to be Knights very early on.
 
srams21 said:
I would wager 3A is where most of the "recruiting" happens.

Xavier, Assumption, and Wahlert should all play 4A imo.
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Totally agree. Heelan too. Regina and Burlington Notre Dame should bump up in classes also in my opinion.
 
People send their kids to private schools because the don't want their kids involved in the sh#tshow that is at too many public schools. They want to be associated with high achievers in a structured and competitive environment.

Ironically, this is the same reason you have the high achievers on the east side of Sioux City leaving East High for Sgt. Bluff HS. Public to public. But nobody complains about that. Those that are familiar with this side of the state know the situation I'm talking about over here.
 
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srams21 said:
I'm fine with that.

But shouldn't high achievers want to compete at the highest level?
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There are high achievers at the public schools. It is more important to these parents that their kids avoid the LOW or NON achievers completely...and play for good athletic teams.
 
theIowaHawk said:
"Good Lord"? The OP is complaining about the Catholic schools in all four classes, and someone recommended putting them all in 4A. And I'm the one deserving the derision?

I'm not even sure what you think you are claiming. Algona has 5,500 people, and Bishop Garrigan probably has 100 students. One kid moving from Algona to BG somehow unlevels the playing field?

And even if it did, how exactly is that a problem? Are you pretending that athletes from rural areas don't "move" to the bigger ones for more athletic opportunities?

Des Moines vs. Des Moines is a ridiculous complaint by you when it is comparing Johnston vs. Dowling (or Valley), when the funding levels are completely uneven. Or the other CIML teams that aren't in Des Moines. It ain't fair, what is your point. Johnston won, even with being the lesser-advantaged school, they were just the better team.
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Johnston won in large part because of Jack Dreyer - pitched both the quarter finals (vs Linn-Mar) and finals vs Dowling (13 Ks). Good news - he's going to Iowa!

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...johnston-state-baseball-tournament/508211001/

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/st...ss-4-a-state-baseball-championship/523384001/

 
theIowaHawk said:
Why? Because of the population base that doesn't attend their school?
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Because of the population base that CAN go to their school. That's just one of their huge advantages. The other is free and reduced lunch kids.
Tell me what is fair about Regina or some Des Moines Christian school playing north Iowa?
Hell some of the best basketball teams in hs in the country have like 25-50 kids that go to their school. So it's not the size of the schools enrollment that makes a difference, it has more to do with the number of kids that have the opportunity to go there.
How well does algona hs do in boys sports?? Outside of track. Not well. How has ic west and ic high done since Regina started their run?

Having kids that play in sports in the elementary, it is quite simple to identify a couple kids that would be nice " to have" on your team, Even easier in jr high. You would be very naive to think things like that don't happen at that age.
It's not real hard in a large town to have a couple kids move to the private school that young under the guise of a better education.
Yes one or two kids make a huge difference. My town recently missed out on state basketball because of a kid moving out of town to play for another team. We miss by a couple of points with an all state player having left the team. They team they left for made it to state, so a few minor changes can make a huge difference. In a large city that is far easier than podunk Iowa.
Why be a good back up on a 4a school when you can drop to play against towns with populations of 800.
 
Bulldogs1974 said:
Because of the population base that CAN go to their school. That's just one of their huge advantages. The other is free and reduced lunch kids.
Tell me what is fair about Regina or some Des Moines Christian school playing north Iowa?
Hell some of the best basketball teams in hs in the country have like 25-50 kids that go to their school. So it's not the size of the schools enrollment that makes a difference, it has more to do with the number of kids that have the opportunity to go there.
How well does algona hs do in boys sports?? Outside of track. Not well. How has ic west and ic high done since Regina started their run?

Having kids that play in sports in the elementary, it is quite simple to identify a couple kids that would be nice " to have" on your team, Even easier in jr high. You would be very naive to think things like that don't happen at that age.
It's not real hard in a large town to have a couple kids move to the private school that young under the guise of a better education.
Yes one or two kids make a huge difference. My town recently missed out on state basketball because of a kid moving out of town to play for another team. We miss by a couple of points with an all state player having left the team. They team they left for made it to state, so a few minor changes can make a huge difference. In a large city that is far easier than podunk Iowa.
Why be a good back up on a 4a school when you can drop to play against towns with populations of 800.
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That's the thing, you are pretending this is s private vs public schools problem, and you scream about fairness.

Do you think Fort Dodge or Mason City think it is fair to be in the CIML? None of that is about public vs private, only enrollment and money.

Let's take Regina vs West and High - there was just an article about Marv Cooks daughter signing at Iowa - from West, while his son had gone to Regina, for obvious reasons. Why aren't you complaining about West recruiting her?

You bring up Alfonso again, but how has Bishop Garrigan done in the same time frame?

Glad you finally admit the obvious -you are upset that a kid "left" your school and you didn't make state. Are you going to complain about SE Polk now for similar transfers? How about DCG for the Waukee kids?
 
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It's about the makeup of the enrolled kids. Regina's 200 kids is not the same as North Cedar's 200 kids.

Of the 200 kids at North Cedar they probably have a few physically handicap kids, a few more with intellectual disabilities, and then another chunk of kids who are dirt poor and don't have the capabilities of contributing to an athletic team. The 200 kids at Regina? They all come from houses with incomes of $100,000+ and have all the resources to be successful.

Bottom line, every one of the 200 kids at Regina is capable of contributing to an athletic team. At North Cedar, maybe 120 of them are capable.

Same is true in 3A. According to the 2016-17 BEDS document on the IAHSAA website, Xavier is the exact same size as Denison-Schleswig. Do people really think 700 rich kids from Cedar Rapids is the same as 700 kids from the bowels of SW Iowa?
 
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srams21 said:
Because they have access to resources that other 3A schools do not. Enrollment alone is a poor way to determine "classes".

Also, I know for a fact that these schools "recruit".
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You want to base it on endowment? So you'd likewise be ok separating Valley and Bettendorf, as two obvious examples, from the rest of 4A? SE Polk wrestling from the others? Martensdale from others in baseball because of support?

Or just the private schools for emotional reasons?

Again, you only have to look back to last year to realize this isn't a problem.
 
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