Iowa high school baseball.

[theIowaHawk]

It's about the makeup of the enrolled kids. Regina's 200 kids is not the same as North Cedar's 200 kids.

Of the 200 kids at North Cedar they probably have a few physically handicap kids, a few more with intellectual disabilities, and then another chunk of kids who are dirt poor and don't have the capabilities of contributing to an athletic team. The 200 kids at Regina? They all come from houses with incomes of $100,000+ and have all the resources to be successful.

Bottom line, every one of the 200 kids at Regina is capable of contributing to an athletic team. At North Cedar, maybe 120 of them are capable.

Same is true in 3A. According to the 2016-17 BEDS document on the IAHSAA website, Xavier is the exact same size as Denison-Schleswig. Do people really think 700 rich kids from Cedar Rapids is the same as 700 kids from the bowels of SW Iowa?

Again, do you apply the same to public vs public problem about money?

School funding is almost entirely based on property taxes - for public schools. This means rich kids get better shit, not just at private schools. Alabama has nicer shit than Iowa in football, Kentucky more so in basketball,, South Carolina in baseball.

Making this private Cs public is just emotional dogshit - in most cases.

Why don't we have some fun. The allegation was dastardly recruiting, I.e. "Stealing" players that would have otherwise played public. Ok then, pick one of the championship teams this year and we'll look at the rosters.

Because your post, as with many others, isn't complaining about "recruiting," it is complaining about funding, support, and wealth of families.

 

[irunlikeAcieEarl]

That's the thing, you are pretending this is s private vs public schools problem, and you scream about fairness.

Do you think Fort Dodge or Mason City think it is fair to be in the CIML? None of that is about public vs private, only enrollment and money.

Let's take Regina vs West and High - there was just an article about Marv Cooks daughter signing at Iowa - from West, while his son had gone to Regina, for obvious reasons. Why aren't you complaining about West recruiting her?

You bring up Alfonso again, but how has Bishop Garrigan done in the same time frame?

Glad you finally admit the obvious -you are upset that a kid "left" your school and you didn't make state. Are you going to complain about SE Polk now for similar transfers? How about DCG for the Waukee kids?

As a Mason City kid, who played in sports, I would rather play in the CIML than drop down to 3A, Nothing was more satisfactory then beating Valley in competition Would it be easier if Mason City was back in the Big Eight Conference? Yes, but if you're in athletics, your benchmark is to play the best. Which I think the whole contention of this thread is, if catholics schools are that much better at HS baseball, why wouldn't they play the best competition?

 

[srams21]

You want to base it on endowment? So you'd likewise be ok separating Valley and Bettendorf, as two obvious examples, from the rest of 4A? SE Polk wrestling from the others? Martensdale from others in baseball because of support?

Or just the private schools for emotional reasons?

Again, you only have to look back to last year to realize this isn't a problem.

No emotional reasons.

Just use a multiplier like many other states. Are those states wrong?

 

[Car-go]

Winners win. Losers lose

 

[somebody once]

The public schools "recruit" as well. In SE Iowa Mediapolis had TWO individual state champion wrestlers and also won a team title with kids that open enrolled into an adjacent district. They probably would have won no matter where they wrestled but they miraculously ended up on the same team. Not surprisingly those two kids also started on the Mepo football teams that made deep playoff runs (probably would have won a title if not for a key injury).
Kids (with the means) are fleeing the Burlington school district in droves because of many reasons. Consequently, BHS is terrible in nearly every sport. The beneficiary school districts West Burlington (independent), Mediapolis, Danville, and Burlington Notre Dame have all had recent success in several sports.
My point is no matter if it's public or private the kids with the means will find a way to play for the winning program near them. Around here it seems like the smaller public schools are the ones that get to cast the wider net. Without looking it up I would imagine that a larger percentage of the small/medium public schools in Iowa that find success in sports are more the affluent "bedroom" communities to larger metros. They too are able to draw from those larger populations. Sometimes it's not direct recruiting but population shifts as people with school aged children move out of the metros and into these bedroom communities.

 

[ghost80]

Public schools recruit too. IDK if they still have the billboards but for at least a couple years. Manson NW Webster (a public school) placed billboards in their neighboring school district Fort Dodge. They even placed one in the hood. The message they were sending is clear. If you don't want your kid to go to Fort Dodge High and you can't afford to send them to private St Eds, open enrollment to a nearly public school is an option.

They even went as far as arrange pick up stops for kids in the neighboring district..

When confronted by the signs the school district said they did nothing wrong and they were paid for by citizens and no school money was spent.

When it comes to athletes being recruited to another district (public or private) it is normally kids and parents doing the dirty work of contacting the recruited kid/parents.

 

[stout1]

They've said the same thing about football in Indiana for years. They finally started moving the Catholic schools up in class level until they couldn't win anymore. My son's high school won the state tournament in Classes 3, 4, and 5 (out of a 6 class structure) so they finally moved them to Class 6. They made it to the final 8 and were beaten in double OT by a team with twice their enrollment and who had a QB who signed with Michigan after his senior year.

They actually did this for all schools, public and private. It is a rolling point system based purely on success on the fields. Win and you are moved up.

 

[ghost80]

For what purpose? So that privates win less and publics win more? Is this even a problem? What are the statistics for state champions in baseball between the two distinctions?

Your real issue is money (i.e. travel). Rich schools do better than poor schools. That ain't a newsflash, and it occurs even without "private" designation - see: Valley, West, Bettendorf, etc.

Bricklayer,

You are cherry picking. I realize the thread is titled "Baseball..." but the success of private schools in sports relative to the percentage of schools they comprise of the total schools is well documented and Iowa is in the minority not having any type of leveling mechanism in place to address this.

Personally I'd like to see public and private separate in post season play (and regular season stuff too). Why? Private schools have chosen to separate themselves from public education except when it serves their interest (AKA sports and fine arts). They should be granted their wish and separated in that as well. Why allow the private schools to play it both ways?

If separation isn't an option here is another option. If you are a private school you play at the level of your geographic public peers. Examples. Pella is a 3A school so Pella Christian plays 3A as well. IC Regina? Sorry folks...you go all the way up to 4A. CR Xavier? You are 4A too. If a private school is in the country and not located in a public schools district then they may play at their enrollment size.

 

[hawkssox1]

It's about the makeup of the enrolled kids. Regina's 200 kids is not the same as North Cedar's 200 kids.

Of the 200 kids at North Cedar they probably have a few physically handicap kids, a few more with intellectual disabilities, and then another chunk of kids who are dirt poor and don't have the capabilities of contributing to an athletic team. The 200 kids at Regina? They all come from houses with incomes of $100,000+ and have all the resources to be successful.

Bottom line, every one of the 200 kids at Regina is capable of contributing to an athletic team. At North Cedar, maybe 120 of them are capable.

Same is true in 3A. According to the 2016-17 BEDS document on the IAHSAA website, Xavier is the exact same size as Denison-Schleswig. Do people really think 700 rich kids from Cedar Rapids is the same as 700 kids from the bowels of SW Iowa?

That's some funny sh,sad but funny so you KNOW what parents that send their kids to Regina make a year.How fn stupid can you be?

 

[theIowaHawk]

As a Mason City kid, who played in sports, I would rather play in the CIML than drop down to 3A, Nothing was more satisfactory then beating Valley in competition Would it be easier if Mason City was back in the Big Eight Conference? Yes, but if you're in athletics, your benchmark is to play the best. Which I think the whole contention of this thread is, if catholics schools are that much better at HS baseball, why wouldn't they play the best competition?

That is the point, they generally aren't "that much better." As a poster pointed out, one 2A school has been very successful, 3A Catholics thrive, but the rest isn't "that much better".

How often did your Mason City actually beat Valley?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Bricklayer,

You are cherry picking. I realize the thread is titled "Baseball..." but the success of private schools in sports relative to the percentage of schools they comprise of the total schools is well documented and Iowa is in the minority not having any type of leveling mechanism in place to address this.

Personally I'd like to see public and private separate in post season play (and regular season stuff too). Why? Private schools have chosen to separate themselves from public education except when it serves their interest (AKA sports and fine arts). They should be granted their wish and separated in that as well. Why allow the private schools to play it both ways?

If separation isn't an option here is another option. If you are a private school you play at the level of your geographic public peers. Examples. Pella is a 3A school so Pella Christian plays 3A as well. IC Regina? Sorry folks...you go all the way up to 4A. CR Xavier? You are 4A too. If a private school is in the country and not located in a public schools district then they may play at their enrollment size.

Well documented, great, feel free to post it to prove your point. It was posted earlier specifically about baseball in the last decade. Feel free to do about the rest of the sports.

Your solution is only for one purpose, and blatantly so, you don't want the Catholic schools to win. Admitting is the first step.

 

[theIowaHawk]

They actually did this for all schools, public and private. It is a rolling point system based purely on success on the fields. Win and you are moved up.

Relegation would be a fun idea, for all schools, and it wouldn't be specifically aimed, emotionally, at private schools.

Obviously there would be a dramatic dropoff season for many schools after their 2-4 year run with a group of very talented kids.

Take Fort Dodge wrestling for example, they have 3! D1 recruit senior wrestlers this year. Now obviously they can't move up any higher than they are, but regardless of "reloading" next year, there is going to be significant drop-off.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Public schools recruit too. IDK if they still have the billboards but for at least a couple years. Manson NW Webster (a public school) placed billboards in their neighboring school district Fort Dodge. They even placed one in the hood. The message they were sending is clear. If you don't want your kid to go to Fort Dodge High and you can't afford to send them to private St Eds, open enrollment to a nearly public school is an option.

They even went as far as arrange pick up stops for kids in the neighboring district..

When confronted by the signs the school district said they did nothing wrong and they were paid for by citizens and no school money was spent.

When it comes to athletes being recruited to another district (public or private) it is normally kids and parents doing the dirty work of contacting the recruited kid/parents.

Goose Lake does this in Eastern Iowa, cherry-picking kids from the Clinton area, using the same bus-pickup locations just outside of towns.

Funny that you decide that for public schools it is the parents being "dirty", but for privates, it is the schools. Eye roll.

 

[theIowaHawk]

The public schools "recruit" as well. In SE Iowa Mediapolis had TWO individual state champion wrestlers and also won a team title with kids that open enrolled into an adjacent district. They probably would have won no matter where they wrestled but they miraculously ended up on the same team. Not surprisingly those two kids also started on the Mepo football teams that made deep playoff runs (probably would have won a title if not for a key injury).
Kids (with the means) are fleeing the Burlington school district in droves because of many reasons. Consequently, BHS is terrible in nearly every sport. The beneficiary school districts West Burlington (independent), Mediapolis, Danville, and Burlington Notre Dame have all had recent success in several sports.
My point is no matter if it's public or private the kids with the means will find a way to play for the winning program near them. Around here it seems like the smaller public schools are the ones that get to cast the wider net. Without looking it up I would imagine that a larger percentage of the small/medium public schools in Iowa that find success in sports are more the affluent "bedroom" communities to larger metros. They too are able to draw from those larger populations. Sometimes it's not direct recruiting but population shifts as people with school aged children move out of the metros and into these bedroom communities.

Good post. I can imagine that in just a few short years Van Meter (West of DM Metro) will be good at some sports, as I recently read an article where DM-based parents are enrolling their kids there at record pace, so that their kids can be in a "small classroom." This leads to bigger classrooms and larger enrollment. As you say, population shifts.

For those interested, here is a map of the current school districts in Iowa. One can easily pick out some of those "bedroom communities": https://www.educateiowa.gov/sites/files/ed/documents/IdoeStatewideSchoolDistrictMap1617.pdf

 

[Pinehawk]

I never understand why some people think that the total percentage of private schools should somehow correspond to the percentage of championships won. They have nothing to do with each other.

As others have mentioned, success has far more to do with available resources, high expectations and quality coaching than the lazy 'recruiting' excuse.

Private schools lose just as many (often far more) kids than they ever gain. I know of one kid who just won a State Championship who may now go to a 4A school to try to get more 'exposure' during his senior year. It works both ways.

 

[herkyhawk00]

4 classes, 8 teams in final games. Six of those teams were Catholic.

About time to have a public championship.

I read some Assumption players live in Illinois. No idea if it is true.

Where they excel at, I believe, is that most of these kids are coming from upper to middle class, have two parents in the home, and education and success are expected. Those who are lower class, want to be there, and want to put in the hard work. Kids buy into the program and show up to open gyms and off season weight lifting. If they don't, their parent are their to bring their butts in. Believe me, kids don't like wearing uniforms to school or having to go to school mass once a week. They are willing to to do it, however, as a compromise.

Much of this isn't talked about as it is much easier to just say it is recruiting. Show me the participation in Summer weight lifting or off season conditioning in the Davenport Public Schools. It is vastly different.

 

[whatsup13579er]

Hull Western Christian has been pulling kids from Sioux Center, Sheldon, Rock Valley, Rock Rapids, even Minnesota for years. Do they actively recruit? I can't say for sure but very few athletes actually come from Hull.

3 years ago I was talking to SC Heelan parents at a HS grad party. They were talking about a pretty good baseball player that was at SC North and trying to get him to come to Heelan. The wife wasn't sure if they would be able to get him because their recruiting budget for that year was all used up. Her words, not mine. A rival school’s baseball coach was standing right next to me unbeknownst to her. That was fun. So either this parent was woefully ill informed or Heelan is actively recruiting athletes.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Hull Western Christian has been pulling kids from Sioux Center, Sheldon, Rock Valley, Rock Rapids, even Minnesota for years. Do they actively recruit? I can't say for sure but very few athletes actually come from Hull.

3 years ago I was talking to SC Heelan parents at a HS grad party. They were talking about a pretty good baseball player that was at SC North and trying to get him to come to Heelan. The wife wasn't sure if they would be able to get him because their recruiting budget for that year was all used up. Her words, not mine. A rival school’s baseball coach was standing right next to me unbeknownst to her. That was fun. So either this parent was woefully ill informed or Heelan is actively recruiting athletes.

Or the parent was completely aware of their surroundings and threw that out there to troll you and you bit, hook, line, & sinker.

I went to Heelan, my whole family went there, the recruiting that people are talking about here doesn't happen. Sure, parents talk amongst each other and try to "recruit" their friend's kids to the school, but that works both ways. My friends were trying to recruit me to East, and vice versa.

If Heelan is legit recruiting and has a budget for it and everything then some people need to be fired after last football season. Not making the playoffs is inexcusable. Not winning State at 3A every freaking year is inexcusable, IMO. Heck, we used to win titles at 4A, none of this playing down crap.

 

[BigSlick Suited]

That's some funny sh,sad but funny so you KNOW what parents that send their kids to Regina make a year.How fn stupid can you be?

Obviously I don't know it as a fact. But if you want to believe that the median income at Regina is no different than the median income at North Cedar go ahead. Same thing for Xavier and Denison-Schleswig.

I've got nothing against private schools. And the whole recruiting thing doesn't bother me. It's like some other posters have alluded to, what's the point of these small private schools being crowned as a champion when they have an extreme competitive advantage? Does Marv Cook really get satisfaction out of beating a school like North Cedar? He takes his group of upper-middle class kids from a larger metro area, with all the resources to be successful, and goes and beats the crap out of a small, rural farming community. What have you really accomplished?

 

[HawkPT]

Bricklayer,

You are cherry picking. I realize the thread is titled "Baseball..." but the success of private schools in sports relative to the percentage of schools they comprise of the total schools is well documented and Iowa is in the minority not having any type of leveling mechanism in place to address this.

Personally I'd like to see public and private separate in post season play (and regular season stuff too). Why? Private schools have chosen to separate themselves from public education except when it serves their interest (AKA sports and fine arts). They should be granted their wish and separated in that as well. Why allow the private schools to play it both ways?

If separation isn't an option here is another option. If you are a private school you play at the level of your geographic public peers. Examples. Pella is a 3A school so Pella Christian plays 3A as well. IC Regina? Sorry folks...you go all the way up to 4A. CR Xavier? You are 4A too. If a private school is in the country and not located in a public schools district then they may play at their enrollment size.

The families in the private schools pay taxes that support the public schools. How is that playing it both ways?

 

[whatsup13579er]

Or the parent was completely aware of their surroundings and threw that out there to troll you and you bit, hook, line, & sinker.

I went to Heelan, my whole family went there, the recruiting that people are talking about here doesn't happen. Sure, parents talk amongst each other and try to "recruit" their friend's kids to the school, but that works both ways. My friends were trying to recruit me to East, and vice versa.

If Heelan is legit recruiting and has a budget for it and everything then some people need to be fired after last football season. Not making the playoffs is inexcusable. Not winning State at 3A every freaking year is inexcusable, IMO. Heck, we used to win titles at 4A, none of this playing down crap.

The only thing I know for certain is that she was completely unaware of her surroundings. She had no clue who the coach was. They were actually introduced a few minutes later by the mom hosting the party that was not apart of the previous conversation. I didn't have a dog in the fight and am just sharing an experience that I had.

It sounds like things have changed, not for the better, since you've been there. Maybe they have had to make changes to the way they do business?

 

[Vroom_C14]

If you can't beat em, then that on the public schools. I am a public school kid and we got our butts handed us by Catholic Programs. Everyone thinks that these schools "recruit" and they do not. Majority (90-95%) of those students that attend those schools have been attending private schools since they were in Kindergarten.

I played against several good players who all attended private schools and they told me while in college that they went to school from k-12 in private schools. They said they would "every so often" get a kid open enroll, but they said almost all of them would leave because they didnt' like the uniform requirements or the strict behavior code.

I can't speak on the Assumption/Illinois rumors as I have never heard of that. But these schools do not recruit. I can guarantee you that. I thought the same thing all throughout high school and when I went to college and talked to a lot of the private school kids, they told me the exact opposite.

You are blind. Xavier had kids state in the paper they switched schools specifically for sports. A friends son (who plays D1) was confronted on the street by private school coach to come play. They recruit, yes they do.

 

[Vroom_C14]

And I'm sure St. Eds in Fort Dodge was bitching in football a few years ago when they ran in to the Regina buzz saw - complaining about population sizes. Losers bitch, winners gloat.

What does Johnston have that the rest of the CIML doesn't? Why were they able to beat such a powerhouse Catholic school?

Private schools dominate 1A to 3A come tournament time. When 10% of all students in hs attend private and those private schos make up >50% of state participants, something is skewed. 4A there are far fewer private schools.

 

[Vroom_C14]

The families in the private schools pay taxes that support the public schools. How is that playing it both ways?

Thats a choice to pay extra. Like getting a cadillac instead of the chevy.

 

[SoDakHawk]

The only thing I know for certain is that she was completely unaware of her surroundings. She had no clue who the coach was. They were actually introduced a few minutes later by the mom hosting the party that was not apart of the previous conversation. I didn't have a dog in the fight and am just sharing an experience that I had.

It sounds like things have changed, not for the better, since you've been there. Maybe they have had to make changes to the way they do business?

Like I stated in my last paragraph, if Heelan is recruiting now they are doing a piss poor job of it and need to get somebody in there that can get the job done. State semifinals is my bare minimum expectation. What happened last season is unacceptable.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Like I stated in my last paragraph, if Heelan is recruiting now they are doing a piss poor job of it and need to get somebody in there that can get the job done. State semifinals is my bare minimum expectation. What happened last season is unacceptable.

Must have fixed the problem as they made the semis this year in baseball.

 

[SoDakHawk]

Must have fixed the problem as they made the semis this year in baseball.

That's nice, but Heelan is a football school. The rest of the sports are just activities used to pass the time until the next football season.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Private schools dominate 1A to 3A come tournament time. When 10% of all students in hs attend private and those private schos make up >50% of state participants, something is skewed. 4A there are far fewer private schools.

Do they? Show me the numbers. Someone posted the last decade for baseball, back up the rest of it.

Sure, there are fewer private schools, but why - according to your logic - isn't Dowling winning everything? Why does East win at softball, SE Polk at wrestling, Valley at football, Johnston now at baseball? Shouldn't they be pulling in each and every one of those top athletes, according to your thesis?

 

[theIowaHawk]

You are blind. Xavier had kids state in the paper they switched schools specifically for sports. .

You do realize that this isn't recruiting, right? It could be, or it might not be. Switching schools =/= recruiting, or anything bad.

If you were an up-and-coming baseball player, and the best coach in the area (or even state) is nearby, what would your family decision be regarding that opportunity?

You appear to want them to bump up classes until they lose, just because they have support and finances.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

The Iowa hawk. The point was that one player changing schools changes two fates and can change them in a very big way. This in an area of the state where the population is sparse.
The same thing happens much more often in large population based areas. If my school picked up one or two kids per grade every year like schools from larger population centers do, we would be competitive at a state championship level every year in every sport.
You also fail to understand that the larger your beds report is the less private school advantage becomes. How do mason city and fort dodge generally compare to their larger ciml foes? Size does matter.
Wish I could find the tweet from a Lisbon baseball parent after hearing the home towns of the Newman baseball players. Something about in case you are wondering all of the Lisbon players are from Lisbon. Now I don't know the truth of that statement but I don't doubt it.

 

[theIowaHawk]

The Iowa hawk. The point was that one player changing schools changes two fates and can change them in a very big way. This in an area of the state where the population is sparse.

I've never contested that possibility. Your "solution" is to claim "recruiting" and to bump them up classes until they lose. How is that a solution because "one player changed schools"? That logic is also true when Johnny Mc-5-year-old's family chooses one school over the other at kindergarten, but apparently that isn't a problem to you.

The same thing happens much more often in large population based areas. If my school picked up one or two kids per grade every year like schools from larger population centers do, we would be competitive at a state championship level every year in every sport.

This is what you've claimed is happening, yes. I challenged someone to pick a school so that we can go through the roster. You haven't done so.

You also fail to understand that the larger your beds report is the less private school advantage becomes. How do mason city and fort dodge generally compare to their larger ciml foes? Size does matter.
Wish I could find the tweet from a Lisbon baseball parent after hearing the home towns of the Newman baseball players. Something about in case you are wondering all of the Lisbon players are from Lisbon. Now I don't know the truth of that statement but I don't doubt it.

Of course size - and money - matters, I posted that multiple times. FD/Mason City basically cannot compete, it isn't "fair," but you and others don't seem to give a shit. Instead you give a shit about private vs. public instead. I asked why, and that hasn't been answered.

You want to talk about Lisbon and Newman, let's do it. Post the rosters.

 

[hawkssox1]

Vroom,vroom.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

The person with the north cedar analogy was on the right track. Take the much much larger population center away. You still have 20-25% more iep kids, a huge discrepancy in poverty ( free and reduced kids), single family homes.

A private school with 100 kids per grade is not the same as a private school with 100 kids per grade. The public school has more like 66 to their 100.
This is why some states have multipliers. Which is what Iowa should do.

 

[theIowaHawk]

The person with the north cedar analogy was on the right track. Take the much much larger population center away. You still have 20-25% more iep kids, a huge discrepancy in poverty ( free and reduced kids), single family homes.

A private school with 100 kids per grade is not the same as a private school with 100 kids per grade. The public school has more like 66 to their 100.
This is why some states have multipliers. Which is what Iowa should do.

Give us a specific example how you'd want this to work. Pick a small school, give us the enrollment, and the outcome.

So far the request was to bump them all up to 4A.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Find a roster. Good luck with that.

I do feel for ft dodge and mason city but they are on the bottom end of the 4a beds, no one can help that.
That same disadvantage pertains to all teams at the bottom of the beds report in their class. You can look at all state tournament schools and there is a trend of the largest schools in their class making the state tournament.
Obviously that state divides schools into classes based on enrollment, so we acknowledge the advantage population size has. private schools in those large population center have the same advantage. That advantage is magnified by the smaller class they play. Not a difficult concept.

 

[Run&Blade]

I think this is my first post that generated three pages. Please like this post to stroke my ego.

I will be closing this thread this evening. I think thoughts and opinions have been exchanged and it is time to move along.

 

[theIowaHawk]

There it is. Recruiting! Anecdotal story about roster from different towns!

Put up or shut up? Of course not, more bullshit from the bulldog.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Multiplier as I said. Pretty simple. I wouldn't expect Regina to compete with dowling

 

[hawkssox1]

See you back here in November.Buh bye.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Multiplier as I said. Pretty simple. I wouldn't expect Regina to compete with dowling

Give us a specific example how you'd want this to work. Pick a small school, give us the enrollment, and the outcome.

So far the request was to bump them all up to 4A.