Alford won more B1G Tourney titles then Fran in a third of the time.Agree to disagree. I caught a number of games over that stretch. By the time it ended, people were looking back with longing at the Alford era
It Feels Like We’re Nearing the End
- Thread starter Fran-Con-2
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Sure...leaving aside that especially after the Pierce debacle, a large segment of the fanbase hated him and he never got them back - losing to NW State (still hurts) cemented his fate really. Had Iowa gone from Alford straight to Fran I think things would be different.
My issue with the Iowa MBB program right now is that there's just so little excitement.
Usually, at the start of a season, you want to have new reasons for hope. Maybe it's a returning starter who has upped his game and looks great in the exhibition games. Maybe it's a bench guy from last year who looks like he's going to be a strong contributor. Maybe it's a newcomer, who looks like he's going to be a big-time player for you. Maybe it's a recruit you have committed, who looks like he has the potential to be a star when he arrives.
Right now, Iowa has very little of that. Sure, the big 3 (Payton, Dix, and Freeman) look pretty good, and I am happy about that. Among new contributors, the only guy who's really shown much is Pryce Sandfort, which again, is nice ... but doesn't really feel like the type of impact that turns us into a Sweet 16 team. Our point guards -- Harding and Thelwell -- have both had moments, but neither look like guys who are ready to help the team make it to the next level. Dembele has shown no improvement. Traore has been hurt. Koch seems OK, but just that ... "OK." It doesn't look like Tadjo is even going to see the court much this year.
In short, I don't necessarily think the team looks awful, I just don't see much to be excited about. Maybe we're a bubble team. Cool.
As a contrast, take a look at the women's team. You just lost a generational player and a historic senior class from the year before. But in just a couple of games, you see numerous things that give reason for optimism and make me want to watch to see how the season unfolds. Lucy Olsen looks like a star in the making. Addie O'Grady just recorded a career-high against a solid Virginia Tech game. Hannah Stuelke's game looks to be evolving nicely as she adapts to a new role. The freshman class, including Teagan Mallegni, Taylor Stremlow, Ava Heiden, and Callie Levin, clearly has several members who can contribute this year, and potentially be stars down the road. Looking ahead, you have players like Aaliyah Guyton returning from injury later this year and recruits like Addie Deal and Layla Hays joining the team next fall, who give you hope for the future.
In terms of "reasons to be excited," there is a chasm of difference between the two programs.
And, to be clear, I think Fran has had a solid tenure at Iowa. He deserves credit for consistently putting Iowa in a position to finish in the top half of the conference and qualify for post-season play. That's not something that should be dismissed. But an equally notable part of his record is that we've never reached the second weekend of the tournament. And I'll also note that I don't think Fran has always represented the university in a positive manner with some of his sideline antics. I know that bothers some folks more than others, and that's OK, but I've never been a fan.
To everything, there is a season, and I join others in wondering if Fran's season at Iowa is nearing an end. We probably ought to see how the season plays out, but it just feels like it might be time to turn the page. Following a sports team is supposed to be exciting, but the Iowa men's basketball team has grown stale. At least for me.
Usually, at the start of a season, you want to have new reasons for hope. Maybe it's a returning starter who has upped his game and looks great in the exhibition games. Maybe it's a bench guy from last year who looks like he's going to be a strong contributor. Maybe it's a newcomer, who looks like he's going to be a big-time player for you. Maybe it's a recruit you have committed, who looks like he has the potential to be a star when he arrives.
Right now, Iowa has very little of that. Sure, the big 3 (Payton, Dix, and Freeman) look pretty good, and I am happy about that. Among new contributors, the only guy who's really shown much is Pryce Sandfort, which again, is nice ... but doesn't really feel like the type of impact that turns us into a Sweet 16 team. Our point guards -- Harding and Thelwell -- have both had moments, but neither look like guys who are ready to help the team make it to the next level. Dembele has shown no improvement. Traore has been hurt. Koch seems OK, but just that ... "OK." It doesn't look like Tadjo is even going to see the court much this year.
In short, I don't necessarily think the team looks awful, I just don't see much to be excited about. Maybe we're a bubble team. Cool.
As a contrast, take a look at the women's team. You just lost a generational player and a historic senior class from the year before. But in just a couple of games, you see numerous things that give reason for optimism and make me want to watch to see how the season unfolds. Lucy Olsen looks like a star in the making. Addie O'Grady just recorded a career-high against a solid Virginia Tech game. Hannah Stuelke's game looks to be evolving nicely as she adapts to a new role. The freshman class, including Teagan Mallegni, Taylor Stremlow, Ava Heiden, and Callie Levin, clearly has several members who can contribute this year, and potentially be stars down the road. Looking ahead, you have players like Aaliyah Guyton returning from injury later this year and recruits like Addie Deal and Layla Hays joining the team next fall, who give you hope for the future.
In terms of "reasons to be excited," there is a chasm of difference between the two programs.
And, to be clear, I think Fran has had a solid tenure at Iowa. He deserves credit for consistently putting Iowa in a position to finish in the top half of the conference and qualify for post-season play. That's not something that should be dismissed. But an equally notable part of his record is that we've never reached the second weekend of the tournament. And I'll also note that I don't think Fran has always represented the university in a positive manner with some of his sideline antics. I know that bothers some folks more than others, and that's OK, but I've never been a fan.
To everything, there is a season, and I join others in wondering if Fran's season at Iowa is nearing an end. We probably ought to see how the season plays out, but it just feels like it might be time to turn the page. Following a sports team is supposed to be exciting, but the Iowa men's basketball team has grown stale. At least for me.
Oh, I think most would agree we're far closer to the end of Fran's tenure than not; and as has been occasionally mentioned by others, wouldn't surprise me if this year was his last - especially with their youngest going to college next year. The ability to just watch his games would be very tempting imo.
Largely agree. Part of the issue is Fran has had legitimate super stars with the Murray’s and Garza and the teams flamed out. It’s safe to describe the current roster as lacking a legit super star. Freeman is good but not All-American good.
So combine that with two push over games that look exactly like every other Fran team, it’s hard to get excited about the possibility of seeing a different result.
One other thing. It’s beyond annoying that Fran appears to want to keep his guys as lean and thin as possible. We’ve rarely had any true bulk or muscle on his teams which has made rim protection and rebounding very difficult in the B1G.
And others have not.
To be clear, I don't think this was solely due to Lick's tenure. IMO, it was a combination of the fanbase getting split during Alford's time - especially during/after the Pierce debacle, both rounds 1 and 2. It was handled terribly by all levels of the university and it never felt to me (I was a student from 01-06) like that was something that was more than papered over. So I think the groundwork for fan apathy ended up getting laid by Alford, and Lick dropped bomb into it with everything he did over his 3 years.
I do wonder what might have been after the '20 season was cut short due to covid, and then virtually no fans the following season during Garza's final season and a team that was top 15 for all/nearly all of the season. It was cut short in the tourney obviously, but would have been a great draw in the regular season I would think.
100%
Some fans find excitement watching the boys develop, rooting to make the tourney, and finishing with a decent (.500 or above) record. Not a thing wrong with that. For me though, that's a thing to do in rebuilding years.
In my opinion, if you're hanging your hat on "top half conference finishes" for FIFTEEN STRAIGHT YEARS (while Wisconsin routinely wins titles and goes to sweet Sixteens) you simply have lost the plot. I'm out. No way I can stay invested in institutionalized mediocrity like that. Jmo.
I'm ready to upgrade Iowa Basketball.
Disagree to an extent. I think the combination of the Alford-Pierre Pierce mess AND hiring Lick did sink Iowa BB from any relevance, both nationally and with the fanbase. Fran restored some of the national respect, but the constant postseason failures have kept fans from having any confidence or enthusiasm. Now, NIL has put the nail in the coffin, and until Iowa figures that out, Fran or a replacement are going to be at an enormous disadvantage. All things considered, I think Fran has assembled the current roster, which I believe is capable of having some success beyond mediocrity (dare I say a winning B1G record, and even a sweet 16 appearance). No, I am not predicting a BIG run, and I could be totally off base. We clearly don't have the studs that the top 20 NIL-rich programs have. I think that there is a decent chance that Fran moves on to coach his son, but I have very little confidence that a replacement is going to take the team to a higher level of success. I would be thrilled if I am wrong about that.
Right, after 15 years with no pay off I don't think anyone really has hope that the program is still building towards something big.
I feel like we're all just waiting for the next thing now even though Fran hasn't officially left yet.
Had Fran put together a couple or even just one solid ncaa run to say an elite 8 when he had the chance I don't think anyone's bring up Lick or Alford.
Maybe the next hire won't light it up. That's always a possibility.
This is where Iowa appears to be in a better position than they were when the previous, incompetent, AD handed out extensions to the FB and Men's BBall coaches like they were surplus rolls of toilet paper.
I don't get all the living in fear of a new coach for either of the big 2 jobs. Particularly men's bball where a 1 year catching lightning in a bottle isn't a far fetched proposition. I'll take a roll of the dice at a losing record over the status quo of making the NCAA tourney 60-70% of the time and flaming out early.
The program has plateaued under Fran. It's essentially the same team each year. Some a bit better, some a bit worse. Periodic appearances in the tournament. Never get out of the second round. After 15 years, it's defined. It's in a better position than it was when he got to Iowa, but that's not good enough any longer. It's hard to argue these days that we're better than we were when I got here.
IMO it's been a gradual accumulation of apathy stemming from the last 25 years of irrelevance and being let down in the post season time and time again. The 3 years of Lickliter is only a small part of it. It's Alford, Lick... and Fran, too.
See my signature. Right or wrong, I believe the lack of postseason success has a lot to do with it. It's been even longer since Iowa won the Big Ten.
This program hasn't made a splash in so long, that there's just no excitement at all around the program. The team is never ranked in the preseason polls anymore. No hype. No expectations. The amount of time Fran has been here, people pretty much know what they're going to get. More 1st or 2nd round NCAA losses don't move the needle.
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Reminds me of what's going on with the football program these days, also. Kirk wins enough to satisfy most people, but he's won nothing significant since the Orange Bowl.. 15 years ago. Sorry to hijack a hoops thread with football, but that's where I feel Iowa sports are at these days, sans the women's hoops program.
Speaking for myself.. I honestly hadn't realized that the first 2 games had been played until I saw something about it. I guess they were not televised because they didn't show up in my recordings, but it goes to show how little I was thinking about Iowa basketball. I used to be a rabid fan. Never missed a game.
I'm sure I will watch some games, but images like the OP posted with a mostly empty arena makes it hard for me to want to watch our homes games in particular. The complete lack of atmosphere and weak opponents makes for a pretty dull viewing experience. By the way, I live in FL, in case anyone was thinking of asking what I've been doing to help in regard to fan turnout.
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I think I understand your argument, but after 15 years, if the program hasn't fully recovered from Lickliter years, that is on Fran, there would be no one else to blame. But I disagree in that I do think the program has fully recovered from the Lickliter years, and he did that, full credit to him for that. But after awhile, that's not much of an endorsement of his full tenure at Iowa. Being better than the Lickliter years is not a very high bar. In fairness, he's done better than just being better than Lickliter, but he has not elevated the program to where a 15 year coach should have it in my opinion.
I have never understood how Fran has never gotten a great point guard in all his years. Either they could score and not play a lick of defense or could play some defense and not make a shot to save their life.
Moving on. For people not as engaged in iowa basketball, do you watch other college basketball? I feel like I have almost completely lost interest in all of college basketball and only watch Iowa games. I used to watch tons of other big ten games and some of the other bigger out of conference games. I think I maybe watched a handful of non Iowa games last year.
I used to take off of work the Thursday and Friday of the first round of March madness every year and I don’t even know if I watched any games after the elite 8.
I feel like the NIL stuff has crushed college basketball. They need to expand the NBA G-league and the guys that want to make money can play there. Anyone that wants a free college education and play ball as well can and not be allowed to transfer every year.
Moving on. For people not as engaged in iowa basketball, do you watch other college basketball? I feel like I have almost completely lost interest in all of college basketball and only watch Iowa games. I used to watch tons of other big ten games and some of the other bigger out of conference games. I think I maybe watched a handful of non Iowa games last year.
I used to take off of work the Thursday and Friday of the first round of March madness every year and I don’t even know if I watched any games after the elite 8.
I feel like the NIL stuff has crushed college basketball. They need to expand the NBA G-league and the guys that want to make money can play there. Anyone that wants a free college education and play ball as well can and not be allowed to transfer every year.
Don't get me wrong - I'm ready to move on as well.
Trying to draw a distinction here - the PROGRAM has recovered from Lickliter...I'm not sure fan support has.
Especially when alongside a women's program that's at it's peak - hard to have high fan interest in both.
Gotcha. I do believe that if the men's program could achieve some higher level success (not asking for Final Four appearances and national title game appearances absent a generational player like Caitlin Clark joining the program, who also stays for 4 years - the basic unicorn of all unicorns), but just some competition for BT championships and decent runs in the tournament, that people will come back. Right now, the average fan (and student) does not seem to be that interested in a program that delivers the same product year after year. To quote a former employee of the university, the average fan right now is saying, What's the upside?
He started Jordan Bohannon and CMac in the same backcourt. Neither could defend or create. Bohannon could shoot and nothing else at the big ten level. Cmac could pass (not create, just pass) but nothing else at the big ten level. When you start those guys in the same backcourt in March, it’s a recipe for disaster.
umm...question their defending skills all you like; but to say they couldn't create is just incorrect. Bohannon holds the school record for assists, and CMac holds the mark for assist-to-turnover ration - i forget his assist totals.
Assists look the same in the box score, but not on the court. Both Bohannon and CMac lived off feeding an old school scoring machine in the post. Neither could create off the dribble.
Bohannon was particularly behind his peers as both a small AND slow point guard. His incredible shooting helped his overall performance exceed his limited athletic ability. But it never worked come tourney time.
I totally get that. I just think Iowa's lack of NIL $$ makes it even less likely that a new coach will suddenly bring a lot of success. I think there is a good chance that we will soon find out. Would be kind of ironic if Fran finally took an Iowa team past the first weekend of the dance on his way out. I think Dr. Tom did that.
Just going to go out on a limb and say that Garza would disagree with your take.
I'm starting to get worried about Traore's health and Tadjo's readiness. Fran does not seem to be the mood for anything. I was at the Southern game and Fran seemed annoyed the entire game. I'll be at tomorrow's game but the vibes don't feel good at the moment.
Iowa and fans will never know (see bold) until he/FM is gone, but it might give fans some hope for the future. With McCaffery a lot of fans do not see bright lights ahead.
Holy cow he was so short with Cory Brada. Do those two have a history? Those were softball questions.
My only issue is that - now more than ever - fan support is a HUGE part of a program.
Hard to take the next step as a program without a tandem of good coaching and great fan support
The women have taken over basketball in Iowa City. With both the men's basketball and football teams failing under long-time coaches who are old men, it's time for Beth to check her short list for both sports. Both need new, young blood to rejuvenate stagnant programs. It's time to pull the plug, plain and simple. It certainly looks as though the men could challenge the Lickliter years for poor attendance. And wins may be equally difficult to come by.
Agree!
My 23 year old son graduated from the University of Iowa last year (May 2023). He was not born the last time Iowa made a Sweet 16, which defines making at least a little run in the NCAA tournament.
Since the tournament expanded to 64 plus teams, making it easy for people to fill out a bracket, a program’s success is defined how it does in the tournament.
Given this definition of success, failure to make even one Sweet 16 this century (just once in the past 35 years) has resulted in a less engaged fan base. A less engaged fanbase only attends games when it is convenient for them. My son went to 1-2 games a year during his time as a student at Iowa (except for the Covid season of 20-21) when it was convenient for him to go.
A coaching change might at least generate some interest from the fan base, but it will be a challenge. Letting Fran continue on after this season is pointless.
Also a factor, Fran is going to be 66 in May.
Not to say that 66 is the max for a coach, but he's certainly a lot closer to the end of his career than the beginning. He's also, given his age and stage of his career, unlikely to make a major change in how he does things. After this long at the same job and now a relatively long time at one stop there's no reason to think things will look much different than they have.
Not to say that 66 is the max for a coach, but he's certainly a lot closer to the end of his career than the beginning. He's also, given his age and stage of his career, unlikely to make a major change in how he does things. After this long at the same job and now a relatively long time at one stop there's no reason to think things will look much different than they have.
Tell me you don’t know anything about basketball without telling me you know nothing about basketball.
Sorry, but if you're seriously going to try to argue that Jordan and Connor weren't very effective at running the offense at Iowa, you're just making fun of yourself.
Running the offense does not even remotely equate to “creating”
Fingers and toes would be enough to count the amount of times, combined, they created for a teammate. And that’s career, like 6yrs for each.
They were both very good at getting the guys in spots where they could score. Were either guys that could take players off the dribble? no. but they had excellent assists to turnover ratios; Bohannon holds records for both assists and 3s.
If that's not being a good creator, it's the next best thing.
Connor was a dam good passer. Delivered the ball where it needed to be and to the right guy. But I don’t consider that creating. Facilitating, sure.
