Well since you’re smarter than everyone on here and seem to think it’s not needed, please explain why Monkey.
OT: Iowa High School basketball shot clock?
- Thread starter EvilMonkeyInTheCloset
- Start date
I haven't lived in Iowa for 35 years. I have moved all over the country and watch a fair amount of hs basketball. If any of you have watch other states March tournaments, you know how Hoosiers like the Iowa hs scene is with the games in the 40's.
The folks in Boone were also very late to the game to allow teams to travel out of state to venues and still, I believe it's very limited. Iowa has good hs basketball. I believe it would even get better with a shot clock that allows for more possessions, free flow, a reward for paying defense for 30 secs. vs. 3 minutes, etc.
I agree, too that finding volunteers and retraining people will be an issue. But, a more exciting brand of hoops might entice more interest from volunteers as well.
The folks in Boone were also very late to the game to allow teams to travel out of state to venues and still, I believe it's very limited. Iowa has good hs basketball. I believe it would even get better with a shot clock that allows for more possessions, free flow, a reward for paying defense for 30 secs. vs. 3 minutes, etc.
I agree, too that finding volunteers and retraining people will be an issue. But, a more exciting brand of hoops might entice more interest from volunteers as well.
Yeah from a basketball perspective it's always better with a shot clock. Don't think anyone should argue that but I'm sure there's people on here who would.
In regards to the cost, everything I've seen seems to suggest $3,000 to $5,000 for a pair of decent shot clocks. That does not, however include the cost to install and wire them. And if the current scoreboards are too old to support shot clocks (which I would guess could he the case at a lot of the smaller schools), you're looking at another $10,000 to $20,000 for new scoreboards. So cost is definitely a hurdle for the smaller schools.
High school and college basketball are two different animals. College has skilled players and depth. In Iowa, below the top of 4A and 3A teams are lucky to have one or two talented players at the most. The teams I watch always seem to have one or two sick or injured kids in half the games they play. A team with a poor record sometimes has to slow a game down to have a chance at winning. I see way more college teams having to foul at the end of a game hoping someone will miss a free throw than I see in high school games, and the colleges have the shot clock. Maybe I'm lucky, because I haven't seen any games where a team stalled for a couple of minutes.
South Dakota uses it for all classes. I know coaches in SD and have asked them if they'd like to go back to no shot clock. They both laughed at me. They'll tell you there is no doubt it has improved the game.
Yep, just remembered that. South Dakota adopted shot clock for its largest class (AA) in 2008-09 season. Their next largest class (A) adopted it in 2014-15 and the smallest class implemented it in 2017-18.
You're actually right for once.
IHSAA should pitch in at least half along with their corporate sponsors to get this up and running. They steal enough money from schools the way it is, they can afford to give back.
I coached GBB at a medium-sized school in Washington (would be like big 3A or small 4A in Iowa GBB). They have a 30-second shot clock for girls. We played at a pace maybe slightly above average, and outside of late game situations in close games, we only had about 10 times all season when we had to put up a less-than-ideal shot attempt at the end of the shot clock. Basically, if you're screening, cutting, and passing, the shot clock really isn't a factor. Teams that aren't really working to score when in possession of the ball aren't playing basketball the way it is meant to be played, and shouldn't be rewarded for doing so.
I was remodeling my basement and listened to the games while pounding nails and sawing wood. I remember that game, I think we won. I think Judd Heathcote was the MSU coach .
I've been going back and forth on the shot clock issue in my mind. I'd rather see more 75-71 type games, but:
1) Coaches seem to emphasize defense much more than offense nowadays. It seems more important to not let other teams score than actually trying to outscore the other team.
2) The game is much more physical than it used to be and freedom of movement is much less than it used to be.
3) More offenses seem to be predicated on dribble-drives into traffic and then kick outs for 3's. May be fun to watch, but it's still a low percentage shot in high school basketball. No one can seem to hit the 12 to 15-foot elbow jumper anymore because it's not practiced or coached.
In theory the shot clock is a good idea. But the cost plus finding someone competent enough to run it (some schools struggle now to find competent people to run scoreboard, shot clock is more complicated) will make it prohibitive for many.
Will a shot clock make the game better? Maybe. But also possible a lot of these 38-35 games, especially at the small school level, will still be 38-35 games only with more desperation shots at the end of the shot clock.
With all that said, I think the shot clock will happen on a national level.....eventually.
1) Coaches seem to emphasize defense much more than offense nowadays. It seems more important to not let other teams score than actually trying to outscore the other team.
2) The game is much more physical than it used to be and freedom of movement is much less than it used to be.
3) More offenses seem to be predicated on dribble-drives into traffic and then kick outs for 3's. May be fun to watch, but it's still a low percentage shot in high school basketball. No one can seem to hit the 12 to 15-foot elbow jumper anymore because it's not practiced or coached.
In theory the shot clock is a good idea. But the cost plus finding someone competent enough to run it (some schools struggle now to find competent people to run scoreboard, shot clock is more complicated) will make it prohibitive for many.
Will a shot clock make the game better? Maybe. But also possible a lot of these 38-35 games, especially at the small school level, will still be 38-35 games only with more desperation shots at the end of the shot clock.
With all that said, I think the shot clock will happen on a national level.....eventually.
Exactly.
I never said it will never happen.
Just that it's not necessary right now.
Shot clock means more shots and possibly somewhat higher scores (at least among good teams), and by proxy more rebounds.....but it also means shooting percentages will undoubtedly drop, and most importantly, wait for it............
More turnovers.
So yeah if your goal is to create more turnovers, especially for teams that already struggle to take care of the basketball, then sure bring on the shot clock.
Fortunately, the Association and the Union have no current intention of introducing such a device that would make for a sloppier and more hurried game, just for the singular sake of eliminating the stall ball tactic.
Oh but could I go on?.......
But I do enjoy the discussion.
No. I'm saying it has almost no effect on your team unless they are trying NOT to play basketball.So basically what you're saying is, the shot clock is arbitrary.
Bring in the shot clock, or keep being thought of as playing 1950s basketball by the rest of the country. I agree with the rest of the country.
Like we kept playing 6 on 6 girls basketball? Lol. But oh my, where will we find a shot clock operator in small town Iowa? Such a tough job and how can they ever afford it? Give me a break.
Uh, yeah. Finding someone who is competent and willing to run the clock for little to no pay a bunch of times a year is really difficult.
It's going to be hard in some communities finding people for 40+ nights to come in for free and do it.
Is that why everyone hates Wisconsin and Virginia?
You just have a high school kid/manager run it for sub-varsity games.
You have more kids now than ever playing summer ball, club ball, AAU ball....that should make them better ball players, no? But if you look at statistics over the last 15-20 years, very few teams are able to score like teams 30+ years ago were.
The physicality of the game has changed. There is more of an emphasis on defense. The "drive & kick" and isolation basketball has led to a lot of the "boring" basketball that is being played currently. The top few kids in each state are absolute freaks and monsters in the sport, but overall, with all the kids that are playing outside of the school season, I don't know if they are any better....overall team play certainly doesn't seem to be.
The more I think about it, I just don't think adding a 30-40 second shot clock is going to change much of anything.
The physicality of the game has changed. There is more of an emphasis on defense. The "drive & kick" and isolation basketball has led to a lot of the "boring" basketball that is being played currently. The top few kids in each state are absolute freaks and monsters in the sport, but overall, with all the kids that are playing outside of the school season, I don't know if they are any better....overall team play certainly doesn't seem to be.
The more I think about it, I just don't think adding a 30-40 second shot clock is going to change much of anything.
https://www.pjstar.com/sports/20190...-of-shot-clock-for-illinois-high-school-hoops
Daktronics, a popular digital scoreboard company based in Brookings, S.D., offers 11 different shot clock models ranging in price from $2,500 to $15,000 per unit. That translates to $5,000 to $30,000 for a pair of shot clocks, plus the cost of any time maintenance and/or upkeep.
I worked as a coach and athletic director for many years in a small school in Iowa. Yes, money and finding someone to run a shot clock will be problematic, but perhaps more problematic will be more blow out games. You will see a lot of 70-30 games. Remember most high schools don't get to recruit players. You take what you get and sometimes the talent pool is not very good and slowing the game down may be the only way to compete. Being a player in blow out games is not much fun and participation is already down at most schools. It's not much fun for coaches or fans either. I wonder if fans would rather see a 35-30 game or a 70-30 game!
And a lot of smaller schools have older, outdated scoreboards that likely don't support shotclocks, meaning at minimum replacing controllers and at worse replacing complete scoreboard systems. That's another $10k-$20k (or more) right there for new boards.
It's not as easy as you make it sound. And yes, finding someone who knows the rules and nuances of the shot clock and is willing to do it for free 30ish times a year and sit there until 9:30 at night will be problematic. Not just in small towns, but in other places as well. I sure as hell wouldn't wanna do it, would you?
Yep. My mother lives in a sports mad 2A/3A town....I know the basketball coaches and whenever I go to games when I'm visiting I get asked to do something at the scorer's table. It is not like they are able to schedule all these people in advance and have much hope of them all showing up all season long.
Yes. That's what everyone in Washington does. All they have to do is hit the reset when the ball hits the rim or changes possession. They might screw up once or twice a game, but it's just JV or frosh so there's only one parent in the crowd who gets really worked up about it.
I do not get how it is a part of the game when at that highest of levels there is a shot clock.
Just this past Friday, Our team lost a game due to delays and dribble outs. We had 1 foul with 4:30 left in the game and trailed by 4. Needless to say the game was won by the other team due to this strategy. It is "basketball", but it is not how the game is played in college or pro ball, and ultimately you are preparing these kids to try to reach that next level.
I get the concept, but it is playing scared in my mind. And it will get you caught in the end by more talented teams, or teams that are getting better calls in games by the refs.
Just this past Friday, Our team lost a game due to delays and dribble outs. We had 1 foul with 4:30 left in the game and trailed by 4. Needless to say the game was won by the other team due to this strategy. It is "basketball", but it is not how the game is played in college or pro ball, and ultimately you are preparing these kids to try to reach that next level.
I get the concept, but it is playing scared in my mind. And it will get you caught in the end by more talented teams, or teams that are getting better calls in games by the refs.
So let me see if I understand what some of you are suggesting/asking:
Q: "Isn't holding the ball for 2:48 before finally getting fouled just a different style of play that should be celebrated in a diverse society?"
A: No, it is complete garbage and an embarrassment to the integrity of the game.
Q: "What if some of the not so good teams aren't able to compete if they actually have to shoot the ball more than once per quarter?"
A: Too bad, do a better job of scheduling. And taking an occasional beating teaches some life lessons as well. If you can't handle losing by 40 once in awhile, drop the sport.
Q: "But there will be more turnovers. Shouldn't turnovers and other negative stats be avoided at all costs?"
A: Teaching kids how to play the game and get better is supposed to be the reason they are involved in youth/HS sports in the first place. They don't gain anything by having one kid stand in the corner holding the ball for three minutes.
I understand the financial considerations at some schools, but either play the game or don't.
Q: "Isn't holding the ball for 2:48 before finally getting fouled just a different style of play that should be celebrated in a diverse society?"
A: No, it is complete garbage and an embarrassment to the integrity of the game.
Q: "What if some of the not so good teams aren't able to compete if they actually have to shoot the ball more than once per quarter?"
A: Too bad, do a better job of scheduling. And taking an occasional beating teaches some life lessons as well. If you can't handle losing by 40 once in awhile, drop the sport.
Q: "But there will be more turnovers. Shouldn't turnovers and other negative stats be avoided at all costs?"
A: Teaching kids how to play the game and get better is supposed to be the reason they are involved in youth/HS sports in the first place. They don't gain anything by having one kid stand in the corner holding the ball for three minutes.
I understand the financial considerations at some schools, but either play the game or don't.
Whatever eliminates Stall Ball from teams like Valley in Class 4A, err....I mean.... everywhere!!! Yes, everywhere....that's what we want!
But not really.
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