People listing their preferred pronouns on LinkedIn....

[Hoosierhawkeye]

You literally just described why someone might choose to list pronoun preferences. Take a deep breath, Hoosier. Think.

But political views are something one can choose, not something that you are born as.

I wasn't born as a socially conservative communitarian and I can change those political views to something different.

I was born as a male.

A male is simply in my view descriptive of what parts someone has and their role in sexual reproduction.

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life (They/Them)

Thank you!

 

[BelemNole]

My company is full of alcoholics. We have "team dinners" with plenty of booze regularly.

Explains how you’re still employed despite being a terrible human.

 

[Rudolph]

It's a very small fraction of people in the US that want to use it or need it. It's funny to see so many progressive sorts using it for no real reason. But for to show solidarity or something?

The silly part is that it's a fad for almost everyone that uses it.

Quote me on this in a few years. The future isn't completely decoupling sex from gender identity.

Lol. I love opinions like this.

Fad? Want to know what I hope is a fad? I'm going to guess that if Trad looked at 25 Linkedin profiles, three or less listed preferred pronouns. His reaction? Arguably incommensurate—more simply, triggered,

His reaction then effectively gives people the perception that this was more like at least half of the 25 had listed preferred pronouns.

If this thread continues much longer, people will claim that Linkedin is soon going to make it mandatory that all accountholders list their preferred pronouns.

I mean, look at your post. Look how this went from a thread about an old, crusty bigot being triggered by some Linkedin accounts to your assuring us that sex and gender identity won't be completely decoupled.

I mean, PHEW!!!

It's like we've become algorithms of algorithms.

Fuçking crazy.

It's like every idea has to be pushed to its extreme for people to attempt to understand it, weight it, judge its validity. But not just the idea itself—also the info behind the idea. Going back to the original premise… two or three out of 25 Linkedin profiles list pronouns… hmmm… not sure how to think about that… hmmm… well, WHAT IF THAT BECOMES 18 OUT OF 25?!! Oh, wow, NOW I know how I feel.

Going back to your CNN post… this is how our media market is training people to think. Whether TV or web page, it's not designed to deliver thoughtful information. It's designed to either keep you emotionally invested and/or make you click and scroll, click and scroll, click and scroll. How do they do that? By making every story sensational.

Well, now, we're so conditioned by this that now we do it ourselves, to ourselves.

Hoosier thinks trans people don't accept him. Because pronouns. He thinks this despite my assurance that is most assuredly not the case. He ignores that in favor of the more extreme story he's created in his head. Think about that. No questions asked, no interest expressed in my experience with my "they/them" friends/associates. Did you notice how quickly he went towards an extreme (uninformed) position on this?

Our brains are supercomputers. Powerful. But programmable, too.

 

[BelemNole]

But political views are something one can choose, not something that you are born as.

I wasn't born as a socially conservative communitarian and I can change those political views to something different.

I was born as a male.

A male is simply in my view descriptive of what parts someone has and their role in sexual reproduction.

That’s true, there’s hope that one day you’ll grow out of this terrible bias you have.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

That’s true, there’s hope that one day you’ll grow out of this terrible bias you have.

Maybe I will. . . I'm not discounting that I will change my mind on the trans issue. I just havn't had my mind changed yet.

I just have not seen how this is different from someone who thinks they are made of glass or someone who is fully and easily physically capable of walking but wants to live in a wheelchair and have everyone treat them as though they can not walk.

Can you show me real concrete proof that this is completely different from these??

 

[BelemNole]

Maybe I will. . . I'm not discounting that I will change my mind on the trans issue. I just havn't had my mind changed yet.

I just have not seen how this is different from someone who thinks they are made of glass or someone who is fully and easily physically capable of walking but wants to live in a wheelchair and have everyone treat them as though they can not walk.

Can you show me real concrete proof that this is completely different from these??

Are those real things? Are they common throughout the world and human history?
Perhaps you just need to meet a few young people who are going thru this. It's easy to treat it like madness until you actually know the people.

 

[TarponSpringsNole]

It’s silly. But whatever.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Are those real things? Are they common throughout the world and human history?
Perhaps you just need to meet a few young people who are going thru this. It's easy to treat it like madness until you actually know the people.

They are real things, I don't know how common they are. But trans-genderism isn't exactly common either. Not historically and not in the modern day.

Historically there were some cross dressers. . . especially in the theaters where they didn't let women perform they would have a male dress as a female to play all the female roles.

But none of those actors went home and said they were a female in their real lives.

As far as knowing someone. . . I think that makes a bad argument because I have seen multiple times where the people who knew someone would ignore or minimize some obvious problems someone had that a person who didn't know them could easily pick out those problems.

Both my wife and BIL had prescription drug induced psychosis. And in both times their parents were in complete denial of the problem. For example BIL thought he was receiving secret messages through music from the band Tool . . . this is at around age 19 or 20.

 

[BelemNole]

They are real things, I don't know how common they are. But trans-genderism isn't exactly common either. Not historically and not in the modern day.

Historically there were some cross dressers. . . especially in the theaters where they didn't let women perform they would have a male dress as a female to play all the female roles.

But none of those actors went home and said they were a female in their real lives.

Oh, none.
Hoosier has spoken.

 

[Hawki97]

Lol. I love opinions like this.

Fad? Want to know what I hope is a fad? I'm going to guess that if Trad looked at 25 Linkedin profiles, three or less listed preferred pronouns. His reaction? Arguably incommensurate—more simply, triggered,

His reaction then effectively gives people the perception that this was more like at least half of the 25 had listed preferred pronouns.

If this thread continues much longer, people will claim that Linkedin is soon going to make it mandatory that all accountholders list their preferred pronouns.

I mean, look at your post. Look how this went from a thread about an old, crusty bigot being triggered by some Linkedin accounts to your assuring us that sex and gender identity won't be completely decoupled.

I mean, PHEW!!!

It's like we've become algorithms of algorithms.

Fuçking crazy.

It's like every idea has to be pushed to its extreme for people to attempt to understand it, weight it, judge its validity. But not just the idea itself—also the info behind the idea. Going back to the original premise… two or three out of 25 Linkedin profiles list pronouns… hmmm… not sure how to think about that… hmmm… well, WHAT IF THAT BECOMES 18 OUT OF 25?!! Oh, wow, NOW I know how I feel.

Going back to your CNN post… this is how our media market is training people to think. Whether TV or web page, it's not designed to deliver thoughtful information. It's designed to either keep you emotionally invested and/or make you click and scroll, click and scroll, click and scroll. How do they do that? By making every story sensational.

Well, now, we're so conditioned by this that now we do it ourselves, to ourselves.

Hoosier thinks trans people don't accept him. Because pronouns. He thinks this despite my assurance that is most assuredly not the case. He ignores that in favor of the more extreme story he's created in his head. Think about that. No questions asked, no interest expressed in my experience with my "they/them" friends/associates. Did you notice how quickly he went towards an extreme (uninformed) position on this?

Our brains are supercomputers. Powerful. But programmable, too.

The awesomeness of finding a way to bring the matrix into this particular conversation is amazing…

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Oh, none.
Hoosier has spoken.

If they did do that than in the cultures they where in they would have been considered crazy.

I mean things that would be apt to change my mind would be

1. Multiple pre 18th century cultures in history in which full on transgenderism was accepted as normal.

2. Strong and clear evidence how transgenderism is entirely different from believing that one is made of glass or other ridiculous notions that have no basis in reality.

 

[silasstarr]

I don’t have any plans to list mine at this point, but I certainly couldn’t care less about those that do. Their page. Their decisions.

Why the F would you care about this, OP?

I don't care either but I do roll my eyes when I see it.

 

[BelemNole]

If they did do that than in the cultures they where in they would have been considered crazy.

I mean things that would be apt to change my mind would be

1. Multiple pre 18th century cultures in history in which full on transgenderism was accepted as normal.

2. Strong and clear evidence how transgenderism is entirely different from believing that one is made of glass or other ridiculous notions that have no basis in reality.

Yeah, there's not recorded history of it, right?

Transgender history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[abby97]

This whole topic is so gay.

 

[EasyHawk]

The pronouns are laughable. Some companies are even asking employees to include them in email signatures.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Yeah, there's not recorded history of it, right?

Transgender history - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Meh I see a lot of individuals who where transgendered or suspected of it.

I see a lot of information about acceptance of gender fluidity from the past 100 or so years.

What I'm not seeing is any culture that had widespread acceptance of transgenderism as a legitimate thing from prior to the 18th century.

 

[bladel]

But political views are something one can choose, not something that you are born as.

I wasn't born as a socially conservative communitarian and I can change those political views to something different.

I was born as a male.

A male is simply in my view descriptive of what parts someone has and their role in sexual reproduction.

But it isn't that simple.

1. Sex = what's in your pants
2. Sexual orientation = what you want to find in someone else's pants.
3. Gender = the role society expects of you

Now if 1 and 3 are the same and 2 is the opposite, then Congratulations! Society, religion, most bathrooms, and even the language are tailored to maximize your experiences.

But if there's a mis-match somewhere down the line, then life for those folks is much more difficult. Almost every social or economic transaction is a struggle. It doesn't need to be that way, if we're all a little more thoughtful about seeing the world through the eyes of other people.

 

[Rudolph]

1. I don't agree but if that's what you want to call it fine.

2. I don't think they do it to change my worldview. I think they do it because they feel for some reason or another that they were not born in the right gender. They have their own personal reasons. It's just my world view that doing something like this is crazy. It's a denial of reality.

3. I don't think worldview should be fixed and unchanging. I just have not been convinced by anything to change my worldview that one's gender is something that can be changed.

I'm a man because I was born with and continue to have male parts. That's just the reality of it all. People's feelings don't really affect that. My feelings don't affect that.

King Charles VI felt as though he was made of glass. We say that's because he was crazy. But when a man goes and tells people that he feels as though he's a woman . . . we don't say that's crazy we say "No you are right!!"

1. It's what it is, and every post you've made supports it.

2. It is crazy. For you. Because you don't know otherwise, and haven't bothered to do the work of knowing. You would rather just stick to thinking it's just crazy. And denial of reality? Holy shit this just strengthens my conviction of just how bigoted you are in this stuff. Their reality is so far from yours, this is true, but it is theirs. Again, if you just took 20 minutes to read the Elliot Page piece, to start, maybe just maybe you wouldn't say something like "It's a denial of reality." You are literally denying their reality, Hoosier, to make your reality feel safer, or affirming, or whatever. Again, why? What do you lose by trying to learn more about their realities? Nobody is asking you to question your own gender or sex.

3. You haven't been convinced? Holy shit, Hoosier. You're not even entertaining challenges to your worldview. I'm sitting here begging you to learn from my experiences, yet zilch. Not even the slightest hint of interest. Your entire #3 thought is unbelievably revealing of abject ignorance of this issue. You're not interested in learning, Hoosier. Being this ignorant supports bigotry. You are willfully and actively choosing to be a bigot. I'm calling you out, because I'm sick of it. You're a bigot. Sorry, it's just fact. On this issue, you're a bigot. Now, you can change that. But as it stands now, you are an ignorant bigot on this. And that is disappointing given how good of a person you are. Especially disappointing given your experiences as a father.

Now, the rest. Yes, you are a man. You have a penis, you feel yourself to be a man, you feel that you are in the right body for you. Not everybody feels that way. And there are myriad reasons, some of them undeniably scientific. There is more to this than penis = man, vagina = woman. A lot more. People are living this. It is their reality, just as real to them as being a man with a penis is real to you. Quit being scared to learn, to challenge your ignorance.

You analogize King Charles to this. Again, this just reveals, so plainly, your ignorance. It's actually revealing an antipathy, too. Again, disappointing.

Let me do an analogy, too. You know, some people have an antipathy towards special needs kids, special needs adults, the handicapped, folks with cerebral palsy, folks with severe autism, folks who are obese. They make them feel uncomfortable. They would rather not see them. Sometimes they make fun of them. Understanding them requires work. Fffffüuuuçcck that!

I'll leave you alone now, Hoosier. Sometimes you really, really disappoint me. You have the tools to be so, so, so much bigger of a person in all this. You have the tools to relate on a level that relatively few ever could. You choose not to. Maybe you think your church would frown on you, and that's a powerful force. Community acceptance is a powerful force. But that, too, is something informative. So many tools at your disposal.

And, yet, you obstinately, even unreasonably, inarguably ignorantly remain attached to a belief system and set of opinions—in particular prejudicially against people on the basis of…

This sentence above ^^ ? Think about its origins.

 

[hawkifann]

Any resumes listing preferred pronouns are going straight into the round file.

You go, HR.

 

[bladel]

You go, HR.

Yeah, super helpful for him to put that out there. Makes the lawyers' jobs easier.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Not everybody feels that way. And there are myriad reasons, some of them undeniably scientific.

This is so funny. I mean like "there are six sexes" amusing!

 

[Rudolph]

This is so funny. I mean like "there are six sexes" amusing!

At least Hoosier is a good person. You're just a sad, shit human being. I still like you, though.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

But it isn't that simple.

1. Sex = what's in your pants
2. Sexual orientation = what you want to find in someone else's pants.
3. Gender = the role society expects of you

Now if 1 and 3 are the same and 2 is the opposite, then Congratulations! Society, religion, most bathrooms, and even the language are tailored to maximize your experiences.

But if there's a mis-match somewhere down the line, then life for those folks is much more difficult. Almost every social or economic transaction is a struggle. It doesn't need to be that way, if we're all a little more thoughtful about seeing the world through the eyes of other people.

#3 is a change in definition that was invented recently.

Find me a dictionary from 75+ years ago that did not define gender the same way as it defined sex.

And on the rest I understand things are much more difficult for those people. And for the most part I actually do sympathize to an extent. Unless they are working for a religious organization they should be protected from losing their jobs as a result. They should also be able to buy anything they want (although employers creating customized items should not be forced into any speech on their creations.)

Bathroom wise that's more dicey. . . we've always had male and female bathrooms for a reason. So while going to a bathroom that matches your "gender identity" might make you feel more comfortable it also has the effect of potentially making other people uncomfortable due to the view that while you may claim to be a woman you are really a man (or vice versa)

That said none of caring about their wellbeing pushes me towards participating in what I see as their denial of reality.

 

[BelemNole]

Meh I see a lot of individuals who where transgendered or suspected of it.

I see a lot of information about acceptance of gender fluidity from the past 100 or so years.

What I'm not seeing is any culture that had widespread acceptance of transgenderism as a legitimate thing from prior to the 18th century.

No, you REFUSE to see. You look right at the evidence and REFUSE to see it because it's uncomfortable. That's just sad.

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names. A grave of a possibly transgender person in Europe has been identified from 4500 years ago, and likely depictions occur in art around the Mediterranean from 9000 to 3700 years ago. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women, and records of women who passed as men in order to vote, fight, or study during times when these things were forbidden for women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord), sought sex reassignment surgery, and has been seen as an early trans figure."

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

At least Hoosier is a good person. You're just a sad, shit human being. I still like you, though.

You just need to learn! Open yourself up and challenge what I disagree with you about!

Ask me questions!

"Undeniably scientific." LOLzzz.

 

[ConvenientParking]

They are getting the kids to "virtue signal" at a younger and younger age, though! 😂

View embedded media

That kid has an agent already

 

[torbee]

Going back to your CNN post… this is how our media market is training people to think. Whether TV or web page, it's not designed to deliver thoughtful information. It's designed to either keep you emotionally invested and/or make you click and scroll, click and scroll, click and scroll. How do they do that? By making every story sensational.

The psychology is simple - and we used it to great effect in our online and social postings at the ABC affiliate where I was digital content manager - keep tickling the outrage muscle and make readers/viewers stay on the page.

 

[torbee]

Kind of funny that The Atlantic delivers this the day Trad and Hoosier tell us this is all VERY NEW AND SCARY!''

Where Gender-Neutral Pronouns Come From

People tend to think of "they," "Mx.," and "hir" as relatively recent inventions. But English speakers have been looking for better ways to talk about gender for a very long time.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Rudolph]

You just need to learn! Open yourself up and challenge what I disagree with you about!

Ask me questions!

"Undeniably scientific." LOLzzz.

And yet, you still can't bring yourself to ask a single question about my experiences. This is such weakness. You're delicate, and that's your reality. I accept you.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

And yet, you still can't bring yourself to ask a single question about my experiences. This is such weakness. You're delicate, and that's your reality. I accept you.

(tee/hee/shamone)

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No, you REFUSE to see. You look right at the evidence and REFUSE to see it because it's uncomfortable. That's just sad.

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names. A grave of a possibly transgender person in Europe has been identified from 4500 years ago, and likely depictions occur in art around the Mediterranean from 9000 to 3700 years ago. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women, and records of women who passed as men in order to vote, fight, or study during times when these things were forbidden for women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord), sought sex reassignment surgery, and has been seen as an early trans figure."

The first one is a pretty open ended maybe. The evidence there is sparce. But you know maybe.

The second was just a nutty Roman emperor in a long line of nutty roman emperors. That doesn't mean that what he was doing was socially accepted. It just means that the Roman Emperor by virtue of their position was above any and all reproach in that society.

 

[Rudolph]

Kind of funny that The Atlantic delivers this the day Trad and Hoosier tell us this is all VERY NEW AND SCARY!''

Where Gender-Neutral Pronouns Come From

People tend to think of "they," "Mx.," and "hir" as relatively recent inventions. But English speakers have been looking for better ways to talk about gender for a very long time.

www.theatlantic.com

It's funny. And sad. And revealing. Maybe we can create a new pronoun for bigots. Hoosier is now all over the place, which is interesting to observe. Cracks are forming.

 

[Rudolph]

Funny how puritanism still lives deep in the psyche of so many.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

No, you REFUSE to see. You look right at the evidence and REFUSE to see it because it's uncomfortable. That's just sad.

"Sumerian and Akkadian texts from 4500 years ago document transgender or transvestite priests known as gala and by other names. A grave of a possibly transgender person in Europe has been identified from 4500 years ago, and likely depictions occur in art around the Mediterranean from 9000 to 3700 years ago. In Ancient Greece, Phrygia, and Rome, there were galli priests that some scholars believe to have been trans women, and records of women who passed as men in order to vote, fight, or study during times when these things were forbidden for women. Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord), sought sex reassignment surgery, and has been seen as an early trans figure."

Per Wikipedia

"Later historians suggest Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He replaced the traditional head of the Roman pantheon, Jupiter, with the deity Elagabal, of whom he had been high priest. He forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, presiding over them in person. He married four women, including a Vestal Virgin, and lavished favours on male courtiers thought to have been his lovers.[4][5] He was also reported to have prostituted himself.[6] His behavior estranged the Praetorian Guard, the Senate, and the common people alike. Amidst growing opposition, at just 18 years of age he was assassinated and replaced by his cousin Severus Alexander in March 222. The assassination plot against Elagabalus was devised by his grandmother, Julia Maesa, and carried out by disaffected members of the Praetorian Guard."

Guy tried to get people to worship him as a God, married 4 different women including a Vestal Virgin (Massive no no for a Roman), and was assassinated. Now for a Roman emperor . . . a lot of that stuff is not all that uncommon. These guys had so much power it drove most of them legitimately crazy and than someone would murder them. . . rinse. . . repeat.

Not sure I would hold him up as the model of historical social acceptance of transgenderism.

 

[hawkifann]

I remember when liberals used to warn job seekers against anything on your resume that might reveal a protected characteristic so that you're not discriminated against.

Don't use a "black sounding" name. Use a nickname.

Don't list the dates you attended school so people don't think you're old.

Be conservative and not flamboyant or edgy.

I guess those days are long gone.

Thank goodness.

 

[BelemNole]

Per Wikipedia

"Later historians suggest Elagabalus showed a disregard for Roman religious traditions and sexual taboos. He replaced the traditional head of the Roman pantheon, Jupiter, with the deity Elagabal, of whom he had been high priest. He forced leading members of Rome's government to participate in religious rites celebrating this deity, presiding over them in person. He married four women, including a Vestal Virgin, and lavished favours on male courtiers thought to have been his lovers.[4][5] He was also reported to have prostituted himself.[6] His behavior estranged the Praetorian Guard, the Senate, and the common people alike. Amidst growing opposition, at just 18 years of age he was assassinated and replaced by his cousin Severus Alexander in March 222. The assassination plot against Elagabalus was devised by his grandmother, Julia Maesa, and carried out by disaffected members of the Praetorian Guard."

Guy tried to get people to worship him as a God, married 4 different women including a Vestal Virgin (Massive no no for a Roman), and was assassinated. Now for a Roman emperor . . . a lot of that stuff is not all that uncommon. These guys had so much power it drove most of them legitimately crazy and than someone would murder them. . . rinse. . . repeat.

Not sure I would hold him up as the model of historical social acceptance of transgenderism.

Hey look, you just moved the goalposts.

 

[Rudolph]

Hey look, you just moved the goalposts.

Fissures. Give him space. He's trying, but it's hard. The social acceptance angle speaks to the gravitational pull of his church, his religious practice, that community to which he belongs whose acceptance means a great deal to him.

 

[Rudolph]

I'm a then/than bigot. I'll own up to that. And an apostrophe bigot.

 

[mstp1992]

Here's a suggestion: people could "signal" their gender by putting "Mr." or "Ms." in front of their name instead of "(she/her)" or "(he/him)" after the name. What's wrong with that? Too old-fashioned? Not woke enough?

Not “doctor” enough 😉.

I think it’s a silly thing and as I stated before there is a huge age difference in those who do and don’t put it in their email signature.