I would like to announce that I'm doubling my support for the LIV tour. I will be double clicking all LIV links and reading LIV articles twice.
Saudi blood money golf field announced
- Thread starter St. Louis Hawk
- Start date
Well, well, well...
www.cnbc.com
...and now we know why rory suddenly started talking about an accommodation.
as I predicted, per ESPN:
One of the issues that is being closely examined by the DOJ, according to another agent, is whether the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and the governing bodies of the majors are conspiring to not award Official World Golf Ranking points to LIV players. The 48 players who competed in the first two LIV events were not awarded world ranking points.
Justice Department investigating PGA Tour for possible antitrust violations tied to LIV Golf
The DOJ is investigating PGA Tour for engaging in potentially anti-competitive behavior in its competition with LIV Golf.
...and now we know why rory suddenly started talking about an accommodation.
as I predicted, per ESPN:
One of the issues that is being closely examined by the DOJ, according to another agent, is whether the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and the governing bodies of the majors are conspiring to not award Official World Golf Ranking points to LIV players. The 48 players who competed in the first two LIV events were not awarded world ranking points.
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This seems to be one of LIV’s weakest arguments. Do golfers currently get world ranking points for no cut tournaments that are three rounds vs four and have half the number of golfers competing?Well, well, well...
Justice Department investigating PGA Tour for possible antitrust violations tied to LIV Golf
The DOJ is investigating PGA Tour for engaging in potentially anti-competitive behavior in its competition with LIV Golf.
...and now we know why rory suddenly started talking about an accommodation.
as I predicted, per ESPN:
One of the issues that is being closely examined by the DOJ, according to another agent, is whether the PGA Tour, DP World Tour and the governing bodies of the majors are conspiring to not award Official World Golf Ranking points to LIV players. The 48 players who competed in the first two LIV events were not awarded world ranking points.
How does the DOJ have jurisdiction over what the DP World Tour does?
DP co-sanctions several events in the US.
PGA Tour isn’t stupid and they have top notch anti trust attorneys. This isn’t something that was a surprise to them. I’m guessing they feel pretty good about their legal position.
I disagree. The body that controls ranking points decisions is controlled by the competitors, and more importantly, those points are used by independent tournaments (i.e., "the majors") to determine access to the ability to compete in those majors, which while we think of them as golf tournaments, are most assuredly economic markets. And, if blocking access to those independent economic opportunities has a material adverse impact on LIV's ability to compete with pga for players in the business of golf tournaments (which is precisely what the pga is seeking to do here), you've built yourself a nice little antitrust conspiracy trap.
Now it is likely fine in my mind to "weight" points lighter for LIV events given the field size and duration, but assigning no value is something they do at their peril as it could easily be characterized as an irrational pretext to exclude competitors. Frankly, the parties in the most awkward position here are the reps of the R&A, Augusta, and the USGA who sit on that board, as they'll get wrapped up in the conspiracy even though they're not really LIV's competitor.
Maybe. I think agreeing to exclude players period us the main problem. Not awarding world golf ranking points for what are basically exhibitions seems defensible to me.
Personally, I think the 54 hole issue is a red herring as a "substantive" distinction. Golf is not like baseball in that it is so statistically driven that only through competition over a larger universe of holes will you be able to identify great players. Maybe over the course of a season, but not a week of play. I get the appeal to tradition, and that's fine. But in terms of a consumer product, I rarely watch golf on Thursday or Friday, though I do on the weekends.
As to the incentive to practice, well, there are about $4M additional reasons each week to practice, and at the end of the day, the reality is that by the time most professional athletes get to be professional athletes, they've got a pretty good work ethic already hard wired.
Exhibition is just a label. It's still a golf tournament, just a shorter one. Beyond that, the "exhibition" argument will be an interesting if, when the pga tour starts its limited field "big money bonus round" sub tour of 54 hole no cut events, they award no points for those events.
No doubt they are attached at the hip to their antitrust lawyers now. But the nasty thing about antitrust law is that once you get past a motion to dismiss (which is not hard to conceive here), it's a money pit hell of discovery and disruption.
Incidentally, what will be really interesting is whether, when and how EU competition regulators get involved. That jurisdiction's a/t law actually tends to be stricter than US standards in many respects.
Agree.
But when it’s a fight for your business model, I’m sure they are committed to it.
And, since LIV is a recent development, not a long term play over a series of decades, the discovery should not be that bad - particularly if the lawyers got to the client before and locked them down when the LIV threat became apparent and they were involved in formulating the Tour response.
Very fair point about the duration here. What I think could be a wild card here is that while the PGA is undoubtedly a business, I have a sneaking suspicion that when you scratch the surface, their leadership operates with a very "clubby" mindset that spends most of its time trying to tell people it's really like a nonprofit and hasn't really had a fresh experience of dealing with something quite like this, even though the reality is that it actually is pretty much a monopoly. That's often a pretty good recipe for pretty bad discovery.
Yep, first rule of discovery is that there will be at least 10 emails that you can’t believe a C-suite exec was dumb enough to put in an email instead of picking up the damn phone.
PGA misplayed this IMO. Should’ve brought LIV into the fold by agreeing to a limited number of exemptions for players. Allow LIV to exist, but keep it small and not a threat. I think most of the players would love to do both-keep playing on tour and majors and pick up boatloads of cash playing occasional tournaments for the Saudis. Kind of like an in-season silly season.
I think the PGA drastically underestimated the effect of cold hard cash and guaranteed money.
I think the PGA drastically underestimated the effect of cold hard cash and guaranteed money.
OWGR has already agreed to give minimum points to Tours with 54 hole events. In addition, the OWGR has changed their calculation almost every year since it started in 1986.
PGA Tour and Euro Tour do have the co sponsored events, it did work well for the Scottish Open. Interesting in that the PGA Tour supported/gave money to those going to play in the Scottish Open, but, nothing to the Euro players that played in the Barbasol last week in Kentucky
Then I stand corrected. Awarding no points to LIV participants does seem to be a problem.
OWGR website
- BIG Easy Tour introduced at minimum points levels of 5 first place points for 72-hole tournaments and 3 first place points for 54-hole tournaments, effective OWGR Week 1 - week ending January 7th, 2018.
- China Tour introduced at minimum points levels of 6 first place points for 72-hole tournaments and 4 first place points for 54-hole tournaments, effective OWGR Week 1 - week ending January 7th, 2018.
- PGA TOUR Series China introduced at minimum points levels of 6 first place points for 72-hole tournaments and 4 first place points for 54-hole tournaments, effective OWGR Week 1 - week ending January 7th, 2018.
Aardvark…a bit of an over statement there. You can play ur way into the Brit and US Opens via qualifying. The Masters is an invitational tournament. The PGA requires you be a PGA member or qualifier. Methinks the LIV folks have a lot of very heavy lifting to do here. Like someone said, tge PGA and PGA Tour gave some smart fellers telling them what to do.
LIV is getting exactly what it wants, same as the US Open press conference. Major championship week at St. Andrews and questions are being asked about LIV again in front of the golf world
Good clarification, and certainly true that WGR points are not the exclusive mechanism for entry to those tourneys, and did not mean to suggest so. (BTW, they are a mechanism for masters entry, which though to be sure is technically an 'invitational', the criteria presumptively result in an invite.) But of course, many of the other qualifying criteria for those events are driven by prior participation/results in those same tournaments, so perhaps not too difficult to make the case that at the very least, they may act as barriers to "new market entrants" who choose to participate in LIV, and thus as a barrier to LIV itself. (Note here, the pga's/rory's/thomas's public statements about liv being a bunch of washed up old guys won't be helpful on this front.) No doubt, antitrust cases are a slog, but that's what testifying economists are for. I suspect that there are probably some examples of negotiations with players re: potential LIV membership where players expressed concern about the future ability to play in the independent majors.
Good luck with The Masters….they change their criteria for an invitation almost annually.
Tinker is probably a better word. Rankings have been a pretty consistent element of their criteria over time.
20 years from now - is PGA professional boxing and LIV UFC?
Or do the Saudis get bored and LIV is a distant memory?
Or do the Saudis get bored and LIV is a distant memory?
Nah. Look at the history of other upstart competitive sports leagues that are reasonably well funded. They generally reach an accommodation and/or merge with one another, with the result being a product that is a little more innovative than the original incumbent was.
Well most of the money grabbers sighted playing less and the never gets old "spending more time with Family". LOL!
(this is my understanding of what I've read to date, could be off on some, lot of dynamics)
The PGA requires 15 events which includes Majors, Ryder Cup, Presidents Cup & Fed-Ex Playoff appearances (if you qualify). LIV has 14 events scheduled for next year, and they don't have a Ryder Cup, nor a Major or the Fed-Ex. Sounds like the LIV guys are required to play in those 14 events if healthy (my assumption is the Majors don't count, and up in the air if they'll be allowed to, other than those with current lifetime exemptions - Masters winners and such). So on the surface it appears the LIV guys will actually play more than they would be "forced" to on the PGA Tour. But they have guaranteed money. (other than Tiger most play well more than 15 events, whether they would have to or not to retain their PGA Tour card)
Obviously there are lawsuits, it was going to happen from Day One. The PGA Tour has plenty of Lawyers just like every behemoth does. The DOJ is investigating Anti-trust, which the PGA has been thru before.
Chip Roy (R) of Texas (former college golfer at Virginia apparently) has penned a letter to the DOJ as well in regards to LIV golf and if they've violated the FARA Law (Foreign Agents Registration Act). Some of that I presume is because the money comes from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund.
Obviously the likes of Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods are not fans of the current situation. I personally think it's funnier than hell that Greg Norman was uninvited by the Royal and Ancient Golf Club (the R&A) to attend the Celebration of Champions or Champions Dinner events.
Lawyers, Politics and Sports are ALWAYS a horrible mix.
His “commitment” will be missed in the Ryder Cup, too. But, it was a conscious decision these lads made.
You know, as I continue to ruminate about this situation, it seems to me that the sooner that an LIV guy wins at a big event, the better, as it will accelerate the process of the nonsense stopping and a detente being reached. Maybe even better if it were somebody like Reed, who'd probably take the opportunity to be a surly ass at an awards presentation in a way that would make people say enough. Frankly, I don't care what form that detente takes, because at the end of the day, it's good old fashioned competition.
But as it is, it's getting a little tedious listening to the procession of press conferences and interviews with various officials, players, etc. dumping on the LIV guys, often in a rather personal way. Lord knows, Tiger deserves the utmost respect for his career, for his drive to give it a go on half a set of legs, and for how he's elevated the game of golf among the population. He's done things that have literally captured the imagination. And he certainly deserves the opportunity for his swan song at the RSA. But if you're going to yammer on about guys "not wanting to play majors" and then come out to the major and post a score that's worse thanjust about every all but one of the supposedly "unmotivated" guys, well...
But as it is, it's getting a little tedious listening to the procession of press conferences and interviews with various officials, players, etc. dumping on the LIV guys, often in a rather personal way. Lord knows, Tiger deserves the utmost respect for his career, for his drive to give it a go on half a set of legs, and for how he's elevated the game of golf among the population. He's done things that have literally captured the imagination. And he certainly deserves the opportunity for his swan song at the RSA. But if you're going to yammer on about guys "not wanting to play majors" and then come out to the major and post a score that's worse than
Tiger is”old” for golf and he is damaged goods for ever. Back off, Aardvark. You could only hope to be as successful as Tiger in your chosen profession.Sometimes the best path is to say nothing at all.
Money has warped any and all value systems more than any other factor on earth. What amazes me more than anything Aardvark, is that TO A MAN, these players signed an agreement to not work/ compete against the PGA Tour but now since a Bunch of money has been thrown into the mix, this agreement means nothing? And no one thinks this is not worth discussing?
Phuquin’ typical of what has gone wrong in America in my lifetime...morals and ethics don’t matter if there is enough money involved. Too many people are spineless, gutless and shallow.
No doubt I will never inspire anyone, save perhaps my kids. I’m ok with that, and I am thankful to have seen tiger play golf and lance armstrong ride a bike, notwithstanding their warts. (Btw, recall that the general second insult after Greed to the liv guys is that they’re old and washed up).
But you’re spot on - sometimes the best path is to say nothing. And he didn’t. Notwithstanding years of being pretty good at it actually. As for money, we’ll, if there has been one person who made an order of magnitude difference in golf on that issue, his initials are tw.
When Jose canseco announced that he was an entertainer rather than a baseball player all those years ago, I got the message that the sports world had changed. Others have taken a little longer.
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I’m sure a Democrat will be along shortly to explain how the interstate commerce clause means the Feds get to regulate everything under the sun.
So “contracts” have no meaning at all in today’s World? Again...all these guys voluntarily SIGNED and agreement not to compete against the PGA Tour for the opportunity to compete within the PGA Tour’s schedule of events. They also fully understood that if they decided to compete in other golf tournaments in competition with Tour events, without expressed special permission granted by the PGA Tour, they ran a chance of discipline against them, including their Being barred from the PGA Tour.
Doesn’t that mean shit any more?
We’re discussing jurisdiction.
Should these contracts be an issue for a state court, or the federal court?
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