Solutions

lookleft goright

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OK, so as someone posted in another thread - wrestling, we have a problem. I prefer to focus on the solution rather than the problem so here goes:

Solution 1: If no offensive points (escapes are not considered offensive points) are scored in a period the ref has to give a stall call. That includes the overtime. If they go to a rideout and no one escapes or gets turned, the ref still has to award a stalling call. If the stall call results in a guy getting pointed in OT, then the match is over. Fleeing the mat or illegal holds are not considered offensive points.

Solution 2; Riding time can only earn a point if the top guy gets swipes. He may not get the back points, but if he gets a swipe, he can earn riding time point, otherwise it does not count and will probably end in him or the other guy getting hit for stalling.

Solution 3: A medical FF is a loss. If you are not able to wrestle because of an injury, then you probably would have lost. It is unfortunate, but the rule is being gamed and it needs to stop. Besides, life is tough and you don't always get to wrestle at your best.

Solution 4: Only seed the NCAA tourney to the top 12 and let the coaches do it - just like in the old days Too many coaches are sitting guys for seeding purposes etc. and using the RPI to their advantage. Think Mizzou and Arizona State.
 

artradley

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1 - Completely agree. Plus a refusal to initiate contact should be a point of emphasis for officials, and institution the push out. The written rule on OB is good, but college refs refuse to call it, so we have to remove subjectivity from OB.

2 - Disagree. Might as well get rid of riding time because back points from control are relatively rare in a match that could come down to one point.

3 - Agree

4 - Agree
 
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IAChief32

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Solution 3: A medical FF is a loss. If you are not able to wrestle because of an injury, then you probably would have lost. It is unfortunate, but the rule is being gamed and it needs to stop. Besides, life is tough and you don't always get to wrestle at your best.

Historically, guys are dinged for MFF at the conference tourney. For example, had it been the other way around and Nick Lee defaulted, than Eierman gets the #1 seed.

Both Kemerer and Nolf dropped in 2019.
 

lookleft goright

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Historically, guys are dinged for MFF at the conference tourney. For example, had it been the other way around and Nick Lee defaulted, than Eierman gets the #1 seed.

Both Kemerer and Nolf dropped in 2019.
There is a difference between dinging a guy and counting it as a loss. If they are going to stay with the RPI, then a loss would drop them down significantly in the seeding.
 

lookleft goright

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1 - Completely agree. Plus a refusal to initiate contact should be a point of emphasis for officials, and institution the push out. The written rule on OB is good, but college refs refuse to call it, so we have to remove subjectivity from OB.

2 - Disagree. Might as well get rid of riding time because back points from control are relatively rare in a match that could come down to one point.

3 - Agree

4 - Agree
I think if you get swipes, then you are trying to turn the guy and not just ride and the riding time should be a way to score. If you do not get the swipes, then (best soup Nazi voice) "no riding time point for you!".

I do not think they have to institute a refusal to initiate contact. emphasis. There is a lot of possible scoring that can happen from space - but if you are not scoring or shooting, you will be in danger of getting a stall call.

Lets apply it to the Desanto/RBY match. By my rules - Desanto is winning 2-1 late in the 3rd period. He has gotten a point from RBY getting 2 stall calls against him. Now RBY has to attack and if he does score and Desanto escapes, they go OT. If there is no scoring, RBY may get called again and lose in OT.
 

artradley

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I think if you get swipes, then you are trying to turn the guy and not just ride and the riding time should be a way to score. If you do not get the swipes, then (best soup Nazi voice) "no riding time point for you!".

I do not think they have to institute a refusal to initiate contact. emphasis. There is a lot of possible scoring that can happen from space - but if you are not scoring or shooting, you will be in danger of getting a stall call.

Lets apply it to the Desanto/RBY match. By my rules - Desanto is winning 2-1 late in the 3rd period. He has gotten a point from RBY getting 2 stall calls against him. Now RBY has to attack and if he does score and Desanto escapes, they go OT. If there is no scoring, RBY may get called again and lose in OT.

I should have said failure to initiate offense. It should be emphasized that if a wrestler is not trying to score from their feet their should be stall warnings.

Absolutely agree that Austin should have had at least one point from stalling by time the 3rd period started. Hell, the only time RBY got Austin’s legs was when he made a small level change and Austin ran into him. He didn’t take a shot the entire match.

In the 80’s I swear RBY would have had three stall calls by time the 3rd period started.
 

meatloaf55

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Solution 3: A medical FF is a loss. If you are not able to wrestle because of an injury, then you probably would have lost. It is unfortunate, but the rule is being gamed and it needs to stop. Besides, life is tough and you don't always get to wrestle at your best.
I dont have all the answers but something severe needs to be done, even if that means MFF drops you out of placement position. I know that encourages wrestling injured and probably some other consequences i havent thought of. But this seems to be a more recent problem and something needs to be done to encourage wrestling
 

LutherAce

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Solution 1 is already handled this year with only one extra 2 min period and then 2 :30 options, most riding time at the end of that is the winner.
 

TarpHawk

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I agree with the problem on #1 but not the solution. Remember the short-lived freestyle experiment with ball grabs? It exacerbated rather than solved the problem. I'd say the same with the forced stalling rule.

Ironside was livid about the exposure call on De Santo, and his solution was DON'T mandate rules like that (including the 5 count for moving up)--empower the refs to call stalling when they see it.

I do like solution #2 and think that would go a long ways toward solving the "boring" problem. Too many guys try to ride their whole "up" period without actively trying to turn. Several on our team.

Having watched the IPTV duals from the '80s posted in the other thread--those were exciting matches! People came out to score and let the fur fly. Stalling and stalemates were AGGRESSIVELY called, for better or worse. I think the answer is probably there.

BTW, this problem is not endemic. It's specific to certain wrestlers. You know who was fun to watch this weekend? Suriano, Lee, and Gomez. They let the fur fly.
 

23 so far

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I agree with the problem on #1 but not the solution. Remember the short-lived freestyle experiment with ball grabs? It exacerbated rather than solved the problem. I'd say the same with the forced stalling rule.

Ironside was livid about the exposure call on De Santo, and his solution was DON'T mandate rules like that (including the 5 count for moving up)--empower the refs to call stalling when they see it.

I do like solution #2 and think that would go a long ways toward solving the "boring" problem. Too many guys try to ride their whole "up" period without actively trying to turn. Several on our team.

Having watched the IPTV duals from the '80s posted in the other thread--those were exciting matches! People came out to score and let the fur fly. Stalling and stalemates were AGGRESSIVELY called, for better or worse. I think the answer is probably there.

BTW, this problem is not endemic. It's specific to certain wrestlers. You know who was fun to watch this weekend? Suriano, Lee, and Gomez. They let the fur fly.
Yep. Stalling is just like porn, you know it when you see it. So call it and watch what happens.
 

Grip220

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Some rules just need to be called as the rule is stated, for example. when riding if you are not coming out to the side or working towards a pin it’s stalling. If you are not engaging and backing up not maintaining middle or playing the edge it’s Stalling.

Things that should be added -

If you hook a leg with your leg and sit on it that should start a 5 count also , just like grabbing a leg, Also if you grab a leg and start a 5 count then run a guy out of bounds before the count of 5 that’s automatic stalling.

If a guy gets to his feet (hands off the mat) 3 times out of refs position, neutral is awarded upon the 3rd time automatically. This eliminates dropping to a leg to many times and hanging on at the waist among other things.

When in neutral position you cannot just extend an arm and block a head or shoulder for any amount of time besides a touch and go.
 
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lookleft goright

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Solution 1 is already handled this year with only one extra 2 min period and then 2 :30 options, most riding time at the end of that is the winner.
You still may have to go thru 7 boring minutes of wrestling (which is what we are trying to eliminate) to get to the final ride outs. 3 stalling calls would eliminate the OT completely. Now if the score is 8-8 and they are going OT, then there are probably not any stall calls and so the ride outs would be needed.
 

lookleft goright

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Them ore I think about the automatic stall call, I like it. If you are winning by 1 point and have been hit for stalling, are you going to stall in the 3rd period and risk going into OT? I would think not. It would promote action on both guys. The loser has to score and the winner does not want to be called for stalling and since the stall call is a rule if no points are scored, they have to wrestle.
 

bourbon n blues

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Why not just bring them up to their feet , start again in neutral if no one is close to a pin after 30 seconds? Make them start over and minimize the riding that is doing nothing but accumulating time for a relatively easy point?
They'd be forced to wrestle then and to get another thirty seconds of riding time you need to get a takedown or be actively working for one.
 
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WxNWHawk

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Stalling could be completely solved by using the freestyle passivity rules (shot clock) and awarding OOB points.

Better yet, ditch folk all together and go freestyle. It’s much more exciting wrestling anyway, and it would prepare our athletes against middle eastern and soviet bloc wrestlers who’ve been training full time since they were born and who make 6 figures a year to train for the international circuit.

Folkstyle encourages and rewards stalling, period. When the sport is set up to reward guys for running and literally not competing, it’s not just a few rules that make it a bad style. It’s just a bad style in general. Freestyle is sooooo much better.
 
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SJP80

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Stalling could be completely solved by using the freestyle passivity rules (shot clock) and awarding OOB points.

Better yet, ditch folk all together and go freestyle. It’s much more exciting wrestling anyway, and it would prepare our athletes against middle eastern and soviet bloc wrestlers who’ve been training full time since they were born and who make 6 figures a year to train for the international circuit.

Folkstyle encourages and rewards stalling, period. When the sport is set up to reward guys for running and literally not competing, it’s not just a few rules that make it a bad style. It’s just a bad style in general. Freestyle is sooooo much better.
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MVPFAN

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They need to bring back the count for returning a guy to the mat. This deal where they evaluate whether or not they are trying to return them is bull shit. Either you return the guy in 5 seconds, let him go or get a stall. Also need to bring back calls vs guys backing up all over the mat and never engaging, otherwise get the push out going and they can back up at their own risk.
 
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ChiPackHawk

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One way you can "stop" a medical forfeit is if a physician has to sign off that further wrestling may cause further injury. Then at some point in the future the athlete must also be cleared to continue. Seems to work OK in professional leagues that even team doctors have the authority to sit an athlete until cleared. Of course, getting the same physician to clear the wrestler as the one who originally signed off will be the unlikely hurdle to clear. Not a doctor so I don't know how that would work from an ethical standpoint.
 
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WxNWHawk

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One way you can "stop" a medical forfeit is if a physician has to sign off that further wrestling may cause further injury. Then at some point in the future the athlete must also be cleared to continue. Seems to work OK in professional leagues that even team doctors have the authority to sit an athlete until cleared. Of course, getting the same physician to clear the wrestler as the one who originally signed off will be the unlikely hurdle to clear. Not a doctor so I don't know how that would work from an ethical standpoint.
Would you want to be the doctor getting sued for not signing off on a forfeit?

Imagine Wrestler XYZ and his coach come to you looking for sign-off on a MFF. You don't see anything wrong, so you don't sign off. Think about the shit storm that would bring down on you as a doctor.

The only solution is to err on the side of signing everything off, and then you're in the same spot you are now.

Only solution for a MFF is to count it as a loss.
 

MVPFAN

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Would you want to be the doctor getting sued for not signing off on a forfeit?

Imagine Wrestler XYZ and his coach come to you looking for sign-off on a MFF. You don't see anything wrong, so you don't sign off. Think about the shit storm that would bring down on you as a doctor.

The only solution is to err on the side of signing everything off, and then you're in the same spot you are now.

Only solution for a MFF is to count it as a loss.

I can see counting the immediate match as a loss so in a case like Kem or Rivera it's only the one loss from the semifinal match. Tony and Jaydin would have been losses and given the circumstances I think they still MFF because a loss to #1 doesn't hurt them. Same with Kem. A loss to StallRocci doesn't hurt him. I wouldn't have this be applicable to opens as guys MFF to leave early a lot and I wouldn't have it applicable vs non D1 guys.
 
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bourbon n blues

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Would you want to be the doctor getting sued for not signing off on a forfeit?

Imagine Wrestler XYZ and his coach come to you looking for sign-off on a MFF. You don't see anything wrong, so you don't sign off. Think about the shit storm that would bring down on you as a doctor.

The only solution is to err on the side of signing everything off, and then you're in the same spot you are now.

Only solution for a MFF is to count it as a loss.
You're right docs always err on the side of caution.
 

Bones Malone

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Yep. Stalling is just like porn, you know it when you see it. So call it and watch what happens.
"Wrestlers" know stalling when they see it. At times, I wonder if some NCAA officials wrestled in HS or at all for that matter. Some seem to be trying to understand it by what they read in a rule book but have no experience to apply...
 
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Bones Malone

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I can't remember the last time an official warned both wrestlers at same time for stalling? This could easily be done in the 1st minute of many matches. At first appearance, it seems to accomplish little but forces action sooner in a match.
 

LutherAce

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I can't remember the last time an official warned both wrestlers at same time for stalling? This could easily be done in the 1st minute of many matches. At first appearance, it seems to accomplish little but forces action sooner in a match.
IOWA/ISU dual had this happen this year...only other time i've ever seen it call was Mike Allen and that was waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back.
 
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LIV4GOD

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One way you can "stop" a medical forfeit is if a physician has to sign off that further wrestling may cause further injury.
I think that is so subjective that a variety of doctors would have a variety of opinions. Thus, coaches would find the "right" doctor. It would be exploited.
 

ChiPackHawk

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I think that is so subjective that a variety of doctors would have a variety of opinions. Thus, coaches would find the "right" doctor. It would be exploited.
It seems to work pretty well in football, both college and professional. And those coaches are a whole lot more powerful than a wrestling coach.
 

WxNWHawk

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It seems to work pretty well in football, both college and professional. And those coaches are a whole lot more powerful than a wrestling coach.
Apples/oranges.

A football player has zero to gain by being medically restricted, and when was the last time you ever heard of a doctor telling any player--in any sport--that he or she isn't injured enough to remove themselves from competition? That's what you're suggesting here. You're saying an MD should have to say yes/no to a medical forfeit, otherwise why would you need a doctor to sign off?

A wrestler on the other hand, can game the system to a degree by sitting out matches with no consequences to his/her record or seeding.
 

Redm18

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In all seriousness though, 2 freestyle rules would completely eliminate 95% of all stalling.

OOB, and the shot clock.

Marinelli would've had 6 push out points in his finals match,
So much this. I'm not sure how a push out rule would work with down wrestling though.
 

WxNWHawk

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I think it's pretty clear by this thread that there are super easy and reliable ways to combat stalling and ducking by MFF or otherwise.

To fix stalling you just have to create a push-out rule and force action with a shot clock, and only clock riding time after a TD or reversal. No RT to start a period in the top position. Either cut the guy, tilt him (which is the correct answer), or get hit with passivity. If you step out of bounds it's a point.

To fix ducking, MFFs count as a loss. Also, tie the overall record of a school's weight class to NCAA and conference seedings. So for example Iowa's 149 would have an 8-4 record instead of 8-2 going into B1G/Nationals

For clarity, I'm not saying Max or Brands were ducking with Turk whatsoever. There are legitimate times to sit wrestlers. I'm just demonstrating how I think it should work and how it would prevent ducking.
 
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WxNWHawk

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So much this. I'm not sure how a push out rule would work with down wrestling though.
Same way as in freestyle. From par terre, no points given.

To be clear, there's no points awarded for just pushing an opponent out in freestyle. You have to be either engaged with your opponent (locked up, hand fighting, etc.) or attacking for a TD to get the point.

Can't just be sizing a guy up and shove him OOB.
 
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meatloaf55

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I think it's pretty clear by this thread that there are super easy and reliable ways to combat stalling and ducking by MFF or otherwise.

To fix stalling you just have to create a push-out rule and force action with a shot clock, and only clock riding time after a TD or reversal. No RT to start a period in the top position. Either cut the guy, tilt him (which is the correct answer), or get hit with passivity. If you step out of bounds it's a point.

To fix ducking, MFFs count as a loss. Also, tie the overall record of a school's weight class to NCAA and conference seedings. So for example Iowa's 149 would have an 8-4 record instead of 8-2 going into B1G/Nationals

For clarity, I'm not saying Max or Brands were ducking with Turk whatsoever. There are legitimate times to sit wrestlers. I'm just demonstrating how I think it should work and how it would prevent ducking.
I actually really like this. Makes a bigger emphasis on your team than individual.
 

ChiPackHawk

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Apples/oranges.

A football player has zero to gain by being medically restricted, and when was the last time you ever heard of a doctor telling any player--in any sport--that he or she isn't injured enough to remove themselves from competition? That's what you're suggesting here. You're saying an MD should have to say yes/no to a medical forfeit, otherwise why would you need a doctor to sign off?

A wrestler on the other hand, can game the system to a degree by sitting out matches with no consequences to his/her record or seeding.
I'm not saying anything has to be done. I'm also not saying it has to be done the entire year. I'm giving a possible solution to a problem that realistically is only a problem at something like a conference tournament where it is used as a qualifier for the championships. I don't think it should be used during the regular season as I think coaches can sit their athletes any time they feel it is in their best interest to do so.
 
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One way you can "stop" a medical forfeit is if a physician has to sign off that further wrestling may cause further injury. Then at some point in the future the athlete must also be cleared to continue. Seems to work OK in professional leagues that even team doctors have the authority to sit an athlete until cleared. Of course, getting the same physician to clear the wrestler as the one who originally signed off will be the unlikely hurdle to clear. Not a doctor so I don't know how that would work from an ethical standpoint.
No physician would take on that sort of responsibility, especially without a proper examination. There is way too much liability laced into that idea.
 
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If we're going to **** with the rules this much then we might as well shift to freestyle.

The scoring is just fine, that's what makes it folk. The RT point is fine, that's what makes it folk. Controlling your opponent and being able to wrestle in all 3 positions is what makes it folk.

The problem now is stalling and what it is and is not. The other problem is the neutral danger zone and taking away the ability to scramble without fearing you'll give up an undeserved two points.

And needing a swipe to generate the RT is silly. If you can ride Suriano or Steveson or Nick Lee or Yanni for 1:00 min without turning then you damn well deserve 1 point. So if you're going to initiate a requirement to receive the point, then you might as well get rid of RT all together. Very few can turn, so they'll mindlessly start cutting immediately.

So if that happens, again, just go freestyle.

The bottom line is, the refs need to be able to properly think and understand the situation they are watching. Personally, i think everything has gotten too complicated and that's what muddies the water and puts the refs in a bad position.
 

WxNWHawk

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If we're going to **** with the rules this much then we might as well shift to freestyle.

The scoring is just fine, that's what makes it folk. The RT point is fine, that's what makes it folk. Controlling your opponent and being able to wrestle in all 3 positions is what makes it folk.

The problem now is stalling and what it is and is not. The other problem is the neutral danger zone and taking away the ability to scramble without fearing you'll give up an undeserved two points.

And needing a swipe to generate the RT is silly. If you can ride Suriano or Steveson or Nick Lee or Yanni for 1:00 min without turning then you damn well deserve 1 point. So if you're going to initiate a requirement to receive the point, then you might as well get rid of RT all together. Very few can turn, so they'll mindlessly start cutting immediately.

So if that happens, again, just go freestyle.

The bottom line is, the refs need to be able to properly think and understand the situation they are watching. Personally, i think everything has gotten too complicated and that's what muddies the water and puts the refs in a bad position.
Stalling is controlled unbelievably well in freestyle. If you stall, you will lose, period.

There's nothing that would stop or detract from folkstyle by adopting two simple rules from freestyle. Basically you can't step out or let yourself be pushed out (no fleeing like guys do in folk) or you give up a point, and if you stall you're given 30 seconds to score or you give up a point. It's ridiculously simple and wouldn't change folkstyle much at all except to force guys to wrestle instead of just avoid takedowns and score with escapes.
 
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