The CC Show....

[Joes Place]

I think I’ve cracked the JP code.

I think you're ignoring the facts posted in this thread.

How about if you support those other posters, list CC's Game Efficiency numbers vs. other WNBA guards thru early June.
Then compare those to her last 6-10 games.

That overall stat has nearly doubled, and her numbers are clearly now near the top in the league. AINEC.

 

[JMNSHO]

I think you're ignoring the facts posted in this thread.

How about if you support those other posters, list CC's Game Efficiency numbers vs. other WNBA guards thru early June.
Then compare those to her last 6-10 games.

That overall stat has nearly doubled, and her numbers are clearly now near the top in the league. AINEC.

I’m not interested in the topic. I don’t have a position. My above observation speaks for itself.

 

[TJ8869]

Classic JP.

“Post stats!”

“Okay, she had the league’s highest combination of points, assists, and rebounds.”

“No, not those stats!”

 

[Joes Place]

I’m not interested in the topic.

So you have no clue what you're talking about here, then. Got it.

 

[JMNSHO]

So you have no clue what you're talking about here, then. Got it.

I’m watching you argue and I made an observation. What do you think of my observation? It was not made as an insult.

 

[Joes Place]

Classic JP.

“Post stats!”

Then TJ cherry-picks stats and leaves out the "bad" ones...

LOL

Overall game efficiency score is what determines player value to a team and comparing to their peers.
You want to only pick out the stats that support your point, and ignore the bad ones, which made CC a liability in the early games (and a contributing factor to them starting the season 2-9)

Show us she was "top 10" in overall game efficiency in those games (she was not).
She very likely is, now, over the last 10 games.


“If we had to do it all over again, the way that she’s playing, she would be in really high consideration of making the team because she is playing head and shoulders above a lot of people,” South Carolina coach Dawn Staley, a member of that committee, said on July 30.

 

[TJ8869]

Then TJ cherry-picks stats and leaves out the "bad" ones...

LOL

Overall game efficiency score is what determines player value to a team and comparing to their peers.
You want to only pick out the stats that support your point, and ignore the bad ones, which made CC a liability in the early games (and a contributing factor to them starting the season 2-9)

Show us she was "top 10" in overall game efficiency in those games (she was not).
She very likely is, now, over the last 10 games.


“If we had to do it all over again, the way that she’s playing, she would be in really high consideration of making the team because she is playing head and shoulders above a lot of people,” South Carolina coach Dawn Staley, a member of that committee, said on July 30.

Lol. I “cherry-picked” the three most important stats in the game of basketball. If you wanted me to cherry-pick your one preferred stat then you should have specified that you are only interested in game efficiency and not points or assists or rebounds or any of that gobbledygook.

 

[Tenacious E]

I provided an entire article, which summarizes how much her game play has improved since the early season.
You ought to read it; might learn something.

She has gotten better but something lost in those stats is how much her team has improved by adjusting to her. Many of the exact same passes which were “turnovers” credited to Clark are now assists credited to Clark.

 

[Joes Place]

She has gotten better but something lost in those stats is how much her team has improved by adjusting to her.

You keep claiming this, as though it would not also be a problem tossing her on to an Olympic team of players who have never played with her.

And a coach who had never been on a team with her.

 

[Joes Place]

Lol. I “cherry-picked” the three most important stats in the game of basketball.

You missed the TOs number

You know, that number that she has already obliterated the WNBA records for...
Her early Assist/TO ratio was basically 1. Not a good number at all, and a leading factor in why her team was 2-9

 

[Joes Place]

If you wanted me to cherry-pick your one preferred stat

Nope. I'm claiming you need to look at the overall game efficiency stat, which takes into account shot percentages (e.g. misses) and turnovers, which are major factors in a player's team value.

She was good, not great, in game efficiency early on; worse than nearly all the Olympic players.
That has changed since June, to where she has doubled that number and is making herself into one of the best players in the league.

Go dig up the numbers for yourself- her early play simply did not justify an Olympic spot. The numbers now absolutely would, which is why I reposted the Dawn Staley quote for you.

 

[cidhawkeye]

And nearly 6 turnovers.

Her game efficiency numbers were nowhere near "top 10". Not even for WNBA guards.

Better than an Olympian

 

[cidhawkeye]

Is that cherry picking the stats you want, ignoring overall game efficiency numbers? YEP

That wasn't the question. To help you learn

The question was
is that less than 10 players?
The answer is yes.

Simple enough even for you.

 

[TJ8869]

Nope. I'm claiming you need to look at the overall game efficiency stat, which takes into account shot percentages (e.g. misses) and turnovers, which are major factors in a player's team value.

She was good, not great, in game efficiency early on; worse than nearly all the Olympic players.
That has changed since June, to where she has doubled that number and is making herself into one of the best players in the league.

Go dig up the numbers for yourself- her early play simply did not justify an Olympic spot. The numbers now absolutely would, which is why I reposted the Dawn Staley quote for you.

I did dig up the numbers. They don't even come close to providing a realistic metric for the best players. In fact, not one of the 12 players on the Olympic roster were in the Top 12 of net efficiency ratings on June 6. Breanna Stewart was closest at #13.

A'ja Wilson is undisputedly the best player in the WNBA right now and she was the MVP at the Paris Olympics. On June 6 she was ranked #24 in the WNBA in offensive efficiency, #60 in defensive efficiency, and #34 in net efficiency rating. Kahleah Copper was ranked #93 out of 138 players in net efficiency rating. So please explain to me why you think it's such a great metric for determining the best players.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I provided an entire article, which summarizes how much her game play has improved since the early season.
You ought to read it; might learn something.

That was the miracle. You posted something from someone other than yourself to support what you are attempting to prove.

We could probably use the outline of that article to show how much an improvement you have made in this thread.

Joe took a position he couldn't support and had no facts to back him up. He continued to post, oftentimes posting made up summaries of a coaches interview. He brought up rowing, Jrue Holiday, church going viewers, time zones and yet couldn't support his position but through hard work, a dismantling of the things he was attempting to claim and just flat out lies Joe stuck it out and after day after day, week after week, page after page, post after post he found a new thing to post about. With his tireless effort Joe actually found something to post that resembled something other than just his opinion. He has now made it to the level of an entry level board poster, far better than he was at the start of this thread.

I for one want to congratulate you. It has to have been difficult on your precious ego as each of your diversions and deflections were just batted right back to you. Oh you tried to play the word game, you avoided every question while introducing a wide variety of things that were irrelevant. I guess we should have seen this coming, when Angel hit 50% of her shots the other night we could feel h*ll starting to frost up and now, now that you have brought something to the table we all know that it has frozen completely over. Bravo!!

 

[cidhawkeye]

I did dig up the numbers. They don't even come close to providing a realistic metric for the best players. In fact, not one of the 12 players on the Olympic roster were in the Top 12 of net efficiency ratings on June 6. Breanna Stewart was closest at #13.

A'ja Wilson is undisputedly the best player in the WNBA right now and she was the MVP at the Paris Olympics. On June 6 she was ranked #24 in the WNBA in offensive efficiency, #60 in defensive efficiency, and #34 in net efficiency rating. Kahleah Copper was ranked #93 out of 138 players in net efficiency rating. So please explain to me why you think it's such a great metric for determining the best players.

Not those stats!!!!!!!
The one from that one game where in the 4 minute mark of the 2nd quarter she turned the ball over twice in one minute.......those are the stats we need.

Just a reminder that you are dealing with the person who saw this

'she would be in really high consideration of making the team'

and
came up with 'probably make the team'

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

All I know is that I watched her go around Brittny Griener like she was a statue, not an Olympian…

 

[TJ8869]

Not those stats!!!!!!!
The one from that one game where in the 4 minute mark of the 2nd quarter she turned the ball over twice in one minute.......those are the stats we need.

It's always fun when JP defeats his own argument.

"Overall game efficiency score is what determines player value to a team and comparing to their peers."

A'ja Wilson, the MVP of the Olympics, the runaway leader for 2024 WNBA MVP, and arguably the best female basketball player in the world, currently ranks #38 for the season in net efficiency rating. That's clearly an indispensable rating for determining player value.

 

[lonestar50]

Is this argument still about the Olympic snub? Christ it was probably a good thing she didn't make it. Look at what a month away from the court has done for her game. Everyone needs a break now and then!

 

[Joes Place]

Better than an Olympian

Not really. Pretty much the same, w/ 20 fewer years of international experience.

 

[Joes Place]

It's always fun when JP defeats his own argument.

If you review the entire stat-line and don't simply cherry pick the ones you like, it actually defeats your own argument.

It is why you refuse to post any overall Game Efficiency stats; because hers were poorer compared to the Olympic team leading up to selection day. And that Olympic team even struggled w/ TOs during games against aggressive defenses. Imagine putting in a player who just broke the record for TOs on to that team. They probably don't win the gold if she plays a lot of minutes in those games.

 

[Joes Place]

It's always fun when JP defeats his own argument.

"Overall game efficiency score is what determines player value to a team and comparing to their peers."

A'ja Wilson, the MVP of the Olympics, the runaway leader for 2024 WNBA MVP, and arguably the best female basketball player in the world, currently ranks #38 for the season in net efficiency rating. That's clearly an indispensable rating for determining player value.

What is your "net efficiency" rating based on?
Go look at her "game scores" here - they are based on overall play.

They blow away CC's numbers.

A'ja Wilson 2024 WNBA Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

A'ja Wilson 2024 WNBA Game Log

www.basketball-reference.com

• GmSc - Game Score; the formula is PTS + 0.4 * FG - 0.7 * FGA - 0.4*(FTA - FT) + 0.7 * ORB + 0.3 * DRB + STL + 0.7 * AST + 0.7 * BLK - 0.4 * PF - TOV. Game Score was created by John Hollinger to give a rough measure of a player's productivity for a single game. The scale is similar to that of points scored, (40 is an outstanding performance, 10 is an average performance, etc.).

CC was averaging about 10 in her first 10+ games.
Now is closer to 20.

 

[Joes Place]

That wasn't the question.

That WAS the question.

Go review the Game Score statistic if you want to learn something.
Cherry picking 3 stats, and ignoring that she already has blown away the TOs record is nonsensical and undermines your point here.

 

[Joes Place]

A'ja Wilson is undisputedly the best player in the WNBA right now

And her overall Game Scores are 3x to 4x what CC's early season numbers were.

 

[Joes Place]

That was the miracle. You posted something from someone other than yourself

And that article spells it out very clearly for you.

If you want "stats", go compare the Game Score efficiency ratings for Aja Wilson and CC

Aja's are above. Here are Clark's; pay close attention to the early season ones.

Caitlin Clark 2024 WNBA Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

Caitlin Clark 2024 WNBA Game Log

www.basketball-reference.com

They ain't "stellar" like you and your buddies want to claim.

 

[hawkirugged17]

Just a reminder of the good times ... way back when in 2021.

 

[Pinehawk]

lol

 

[Joes Place]

A'ja Wilson, the MVP of the Olympics, the runaway leader for 2024 WNBA MVP, and arguably the best female basketball player in the world, currently ranks #38 for the season in net efficiency rating. That's clearly an indispensable rating for determining player value.

Caitlin Clark has a NetRating of -4 (offense/defense).

Caitlin Clark

Caitlin Clark Official WNBA Stats, Player Logs, Boxscores, Shotcharts and Videos

stats.wnba.com

Aja Wilson is the #1 player in the league, per ESPN

Where do Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese rank in our top 25 WNBA players at midseason?

A'ja Wilson still reigns supreme at the top, but where did rookies Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese land?

www.espn.com

Might wanna try again on those stats, Cletus.

 

[Joes Place]

Just a reminder of the good times ... way back when in 2021.

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She'll probably develop into the same at the WNBA and International level, too.

But she clearly was not there yet early this season. That is the point folks here simply refuse to recognize.

 

[cidhawkeye]

That WAS the question.

Go review the Game Score statistic if you want to learn something.
Cherry picking 3 stats, and ignoring that she already has blown away the TOs record is nonsensical and undermines your point here.

Here is the complete list of every WNBA player who was averaging at least 15/5/5 on that date:

Caitlin Clark
Jackie Young
Natasha Howard

Is that less than 10 players?


I see one question. The fact that you want to interject your opinion into a question that only has a yes/no answer is quite amusing. Feel free to attach your opinion in the appropriate post. The answer to the only question asked in that post is 'Yes'

3 players is less than 10.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Not really. Pretty much the same, w/ 20 fewer years of international experience.

Except one was better than the other.

And they both played the same minutes in the Gold Medal game.

 

[Tenacious E]

You keep claiming this, as though it would not also be a problem tossing her on to an Olympic team of players who have never played with her.

And a coach who had never been on a team with her.

The Olympians are better players. Look at the all star game when Reese and jones caught her passes. Better athletes used to catching better passes from better guards. It’s not that hard.

 

[cidhawkeye]

The Olympians are better players. Look at the all star game when Reese and jones caught her passes. Better athletes used to catching better passes from better guards. It’s not that hard.

Who won that game?

 

[Chishawk1425]

 

[Pinehawk]

 

[Pinehawk]

 

[hawkirugged17]

 

[Joes Place]

Is that less than 10 players?

Again: cherry picking one stat doesn't inform you who the best players are.

She just got outplayed last night by her teammate and an actual Olympian on the other team.

You really want to sidestep the entire Game Efficiency scores, because those dispel your argument here. 1:1 Assist/TO ratio last night probably cost them the game. If she'd been 2:1, they might have won the game. Spare me the BS that "it was her teammates' fault" - I watched numerous passes well outside their reach that should not have been attempted against an aggressive defense.

 

[Joes Place]

View embedded media

Now do "turnovers".

 

[Joes Place]

The Olympians are better players.

They still cannot catch passes outside their reach - I counted 3 or more CC TOs last night that were ill-advised passes.

1:1 Assist/TO ratio is what kept Indiana out of the game. Note that her Olympian counterpart (IIRC) had zero TOs for the game.