The G.O.A.T thoughts

[fufighters]

As stated earlier in another post, doing research on great wrestlers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Reed
Mike Chapman (award winning journalist and author,formerly of the wrestling HOF in Newton/Waterloo) wrote a great book from "Gotch to Gable "which detailed several fantastic biographies of former wrestlers.
With these starting points and the quality of knowledge on the HR, would like some feedback on several questions on goat.
Do you consider college record as the only criteria, or does ones high school and post college career record count towards their position as goat.
Is a loss, a loss, regardless of official NCAA record?(the Paul Jenn question) and should be considered when talking about greatness or swept over?
Is the NCAA the only measuring stick since several great wrestlers never had an NCAA governing body?
Is being a 4x the maximum achievement and override all others when ranking achievements, especially when some titles were not possible due to war ? Also for a time freshmen were not allowed to compete and never had the opportunity to win 4...
Does post college accomplishments out weigh college or do you simply believe the debate should only be about USA wrestling?
Finally does success as a coach also add to the arguement as to who is best.
I realize there is alot of fans who will defend their guy based on hes from their state or school, but I'm only really interested in honest responses and not wishing this to be a troll station.

 

[TNHAWK79]

No one has had more of an impact on wrestling than Gable. Look how many D1 coaches wrestled underneath him. 15 championships in 20 years, 94% dual winning record 155 All Americans

Beat the Russians when they were at the height of wrestling and took home Gold in Munich without surrendering a single point!

The answer to your question, and the only answer, would be Gable.

Thread

 

[IAChief32]

I think there is a lot of recency bias and even generational bias...especially to the competition one faced in their era. Plus, there is so much more info about wrestlers in the past ten years then previously. At least for this, you have to tip the cap to a Flowrestling.

Give you an example...I made the argument that Ed Banach was more dominant at the NCAAs than any recent PSU wrestler. Zain is on Flo’s GOAT list but if you look at Zain’s level of competition, which we can quantify because we have so much data, than one could place Banach above him. However, how much do I know about Banach’s competition? To be honest...I don’t know much beyond some of the ISU guys. So is it fair to Zain? Back then, you would have to go strictly by regional and national magazines.

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

Greatest wrestler of all time has to include all styles and results so Olympic gold matters too.

I don’t think anyone pre-integration should be considered. When a sizeable amount of the competition pool isn’t even allowed to participate, the era deserves an asterick.

I don’t put gable first. I put John Smith first. Then gable. Then Burroughs. Snyder was in a sandy koufax type run for a while, but he certainly has a chance.

Bruce Baumgartner also should be in the second tier for his ridiculous streak of world level medals.

If we’re not keeping it to USA only, it seems to me like it’s Karelin by a country mile.

 

[IAChief32]

Greatest wrestler of all time has to include all styles and results so Olympic gold matters too.

I don’t think anyone pre-integration should be considered. When a sizeable amount of the competition pool isn’t even allowed to participate, the era deserves an asterick.

I don’t put gable first. I put John Smith first. Then gable. Then Burroughs. Snyder was in a sandy koufax type run for a while, but he certainly has a chance.

Bruce Baumgartner also should be in the second tier for his ridiculous streak of world level medals.

If we’re not keeping it to USA only, it seems to me like it’s Karelin by a country mile.

I am going to pray for forgiveness but I would go Smith and Burroughs. JB has won 5 titles, two bronze and one DNP since he came out of college in 2011. If he wins this year or next, or both, he would be the GOAT in my book.

 

[fufighters]

Appreciate the feedback, but I'm interested in the questions asked.
You could realistically make a case for many favourite wrestlers, but the questions were more based on establishing a criteria and which criteria to use.
For example if I said greatest American wrestler or greatest amateur ect.
Also disqualifying wrestlers of the past based on either lack of competition or quality shouldn't in my opinion be a basis for elevating one and diminishing another. This is like saying Jim Thorpe couldn't compete today, even though he ran 100 meters in 10.5 with two different shoes on.
You can only compete against those in front of you and theres no realistic way to say a wrestler from the past wouldn't actually destroy a current wrestler...say Ironside vs Fix..

 

[Grip220]

Overall impact hands down Gable... The original!

 

[donboy6499]

Name I never see mentioned in these discussions is Lee Kemp. Went 2-1-1-1 I believe, with the 2 being a referee decision after sudden death (I guess that's how it was determined until ???).

His college career was insane, and his international career alone would put him top 10 at least among American freestylers. But I rarely hear him mentioned (unless I'm reading the wrong things, or just accidentally miss his mention).

He also beat Gable at Midlands as an 18 year old.

Wow, just did a deep dive into his international accolades as I type this and I'm not sure Lee Kemp isn't more top 3-5 than just top 10.

 

[Edgar Wade]

But I rarely hear him mentioned (unless I'm reading the wrong things, or just accidentally miss his mention).

US boycotted the '80 Moscow Olympic Games. He made the team but unfortunately didn't get a chance to get that important accolade. Probably why he is sometimes overlooked.

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

As stated earlier in another post, doing research on great wrestlers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Reed
Mike Chapman (award winning journalist and author,formerly of the wrestling HOF in Newton/Waterloo) wrote a great book from "Gotch to Gable "which detailed several fantastic biographies of former wrestlers.
With these starting points and the quality of knowledge on the HR, would like some feedback on several questions on goat.
Do you consider college record as the only criteria, or does ones high school and post college career record count towards their position as goat.
Is a loss, a loss, regardless of official NCAA record?(the Paul Jenn question) and should be considered when talking about greatness or swept over?
Is the NCAA the only measuring stick since several great wrestlers never had an NCAA governing body?
Is being a 4x the maximum achievement and override all others when ranking achievements, especially when some titles were not possible due to war ? Also for a time freshmen were not allowed to compete and never had the opportunity to win 4...
Does post college accomplishments out weigh college or do you simply believe the debate should only be about USA wrestling?
Finally does success as a coach also add to the arguement as to who is best.
I realize there is alot of fans who will defend their guy based on hes from their state or school, but I'm only really interested in honest responses and not wishing this to be a troll station.

1) I consider the whole body of work from college through international.

2) a loss is a loss, but o do t think a guy losing dings him if his accomplishments outweigh the loss.

3) the NCAA is the measure for college success. Even before the governing body was founded, college titles count the same.

4) being a 4xer matters, but only in context. Mark Churella is not superior to Dan gable simply because Mark has more national titles.

5) success as a coach to me doesn’t matter for the purpose of the Goat conversation.

That’s my $.02 on the questions you asked. It’s worth $.01 and don’t ask for a refund.

 

[Fan In Black]

I would go John Smith at top. What Dake did in college still doesn't seem real to me.

 

[Exo]

I would go John Smith at top. What Dake did in college still doesn't seem real to me.

Yeah, if he stays on track over the next 3-4 years, he's gotta be in the convo. Especially if he takes out Burroughs in 2020. Some may say Burroughs is getting old but he just beat Chamizo yesterday, 9-2 in Bulgaria.

 

[lookleft goright]

I always thought is would be a good discussion to discuss the G.O.A.Y. (Greatest of a year.) Guys like Metcalf are probably not in the G.O.A.T. conversation, but what he did his Sophomore year was a darn impressive year. That bracket at the NCAAs was insane and he plowed thru it. Even though he had some blemishes on his career and did not shine at the world level, he did have a great year as a sophomore and would be in the discussion for G.O.A.Y.

Also, guys like John Smith and Kyle Snyder who won world titles the same year they won an NCAA title seem like they should be in the discussion. Dake never really had an incredible year IMHO. He lost matches in 2 of his years and he beat a lot of people 4-0 at the NCAA's the year he beat Taylor. However, Dake's overall career may put him the discussion for G.O.A.T.

How about Burroughs his senior year. He beats world team member Matt Howe, wins an NCAA championship and then wins Yarygin and the worlds right out of school.

Had Spencer not lost any matches his freshman year, he could be in the discussion for G.O.A.Y. He went thru some studs and did it in pretty impressive fashion.

Randy Lewis's junior year was crazy also, IIRC.
Bruce Kinseth's senior year when he pinned all 5 guys at the NCAA tourney was a pretty impressive year and worthy of being in the G.O.A.Y. discussion, but he is not even an honorable mention for G.O.A.T.

Who else had an incredible year, but would not be considered a G.O.A.T.?

 

[rossel 33]

Name I never see mentioned in these discussions is Lee Kemp.

He also beat Gable at Midlands as an 18 year old.

This is incorrect. Kemp did not beat Gable at Midlands. Gable never lost at Midlands, winning 6 straight titles.

Kemp did beat Gable in Nov 1975, in the Northern Open.

Some background. Gable had not wrestled competitively in nearly 3 years, having retired in early 1973 after a couple of exhibition FS matches. He was supposedly considering going for another Olympics, so he entered the Northern Open at 158#, up a weight from his prior Olympic and World outings. In the finals Gable faced Kemp, and lost to Kemp by 7-6.

Kemp is certainly worthy of consideration for GOAT. Hard for me to pick, given all the generational differences and number of matches, quality opponents, etc.

Just by W/L for example, how could one not pick Robin Reed? Reed supposedly never lost a match in HS or college, and won Olympic gold in at 134.5# in 1924.

Here's what's downright bizarre. Reed entered the Olympic team trials at 4 different weight classes and won them all. The story goes he could beat every member of the U.S. Olympic team. That included the heavyweight - who, btw, won Olympic gold himself.

How does anyone top that?

But ... different era....apples and oranges.

My 2 cents (U.S. only):

Greatest folkstyle:
Gable, Hodge, Cael
Greatest FS:
Smith, Baumgartner, then JB, Snyder and
Gable
Greatest coach:
Gable

Overall: Gable (modern era) Reed (early era)

 

[donboy6499]

This is incorrect. Kemp did not beat Gable at Midlands. Gable never lost at Midlands, winning 6 straight titles.

Kemp did beat Gable in Nov 1975, in the Northern Open.

Some background. Gable had not wrestled competitively in nearly 3 years, having retired in early 1973 after a couple of exhibition FS matches. He was supposedly considering going for another Olympics, so he entered the Northern Open at 158#, up a weight from his prior Olympic and World outings. In the finals Gable faced Kemp, and lost to Kemp by 7-6.

Kemp is certainly worthy of consideration for GOAT. Hard for me to pick, given all the generational differences and number of matches, quality opponents, etc.

Just by W/L for example, how could one not pick Robin Reed? Reed supposedly never lost a match in HS or college, and won Olympic gold in at 134.5# in 1924.

Here's what's downright bizarre. Reed entered the Olympic team trials at 4 different weight classes and won them all. The story goes he could beat every member of the U.S. Olympic team. That included the heavyweight - who, btw, won Olympic gold himself.

How does anyone top that?

But ... different era....apples and oranges.

My 2 cents (U.S. only):

Greatest folkstyle:
Gable, Hodge, Cael
Greatest FS:
Smith, Baumgartner, then JB, Snyder and
Gable
Greatest coach:
Gable

Overall: Gable (modern era) Reed (early era)

Apologies on the incorrect tournament.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Apologies on the incorrect tournament.

Just send a donation to WFL and all be forgiven.

 

[csoult]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Reed
You posted it, but not sure how you can ignore this guy when you read the details. Weight class was no issue, he beat everyone. Things were different back then but he was one tough dude.

 

[pablow]

I always thought is would be a good discussion to discuss the G.O.A.Y. (Greatest of a year.) . . .

Bruce Kinseth's senior year when he pinned all 5 guys at the NCAA tourney was a pretty impressive year and worthy of being in the G.O.A.Y. discussion, but he is not even an honorable mention for G.O.A.T.

Who else had an incredible year, but would not be considered a G.O.A.T.?

Certainly the most impressive post-season run ever. Kinseth pinned his way through both the Big Tens and NCAA -

Bruce Kinseth orchestrated one of the most impressive postseason runs in college wrestling history.

In the biggest meets against the highest caliber of competition, the University of Iowa grappler provided Hawkeye fans with one of the most memorable performances, pinning his way to the 150-pound NCAA Championship in 1979 at Ames.

He also pinned his way through the Big Ten tournament, making Kinseth the only wrestler to accomplish the feat.
https://www.thegazette.com/2010/03/01/kinseth-turns-postseason-into-personal-pinfest​

 

[grapplefann]

I'm only really interested in honest responses and not wishing this to be a troll station.

Good luck.

 

[rossel 33]

Apologies on the incorrect tournament.

You must understand, no incorrect information is ever tolerated on this forum.

Jes kiddin' of course. And Kemp got screwed in 1980 with the boycott. I think he likely would've won Olympic gold. I agree that Kemp is worthy of consideration.

 

[donboy6499]

You must understand, no incorrect information is ever tolerated on this forum.

Jes kiddin' of course. And Kemp got screwed in 1980 with the boycott. I think he likely would've won Olympic gold. I agree that Kemp is worthy of consideration.

Ha! No it's all good! I like good discussion and this is a good topic.
I'm probably one of the few posters who didn't wrestle, and I'm trying to learn about it as much as I can as I've gotten into it the last 3-5 years. Know those NFL fans who never put a helmet on but can't get enough? That's me.

 

[24 so far]

This is incorrect. Kemp did not beat Gable at Midlands. Gable never lost at Midlands, winning 6 straight titles.

Kemp did beat Gable in Nov 1975, in the Northern Open.

Some background. Gable had not wrestled competitively in nearly 3 years, having retired in early 1973 after a couple of exhibition FS matches. He was supposedly considering going for another Olympics, so he entered the Northern Open at 158#, up a weight from his prior Olympic and World outings. In the finals Gable faced Kemp, and lost to Kemp by 7-6.

Kemp is certainly worthy of consideration for GOAT. Hard for me to pick, given all the generational differences and number of matches, quality opponents, etc.

Just by W/L for example, how could one not pick Robin Reed? Reed supposedly never lost a match in HS or college, and won Olympic gold in at 134.5# in 1924.

Here's what's downright bizarre. Reed entered the Olympic team trials at 4 different weight classes and won them all. The story goes he could beat every member of the U.S. Olympic team. That included the heavyweight - who, btw, won Olympic gold himself.

How does anyone top that?

But ... different era....apples and oranges.

My 2 cents (U.S. only):

Greatest folkstyle:
Gable, Hodge, Cael
Greatest FS:
Smith, Baumgartner, then JB, Snyder and
Gable
Greatest coach:
Gable

Overall: Gable (modern era) Reed (early era)

The greatest overall wrestler in my lifetime is Dan Gable, and frankly I don't think its debatable.

Others may disagree, but just because they're wrong I won't hold it against them......

 

[fufighters]

Come on guys stay the course, looking for answers not who's best. Like do you high school loses also count overall when comparing two equal Individuals with same accomplishments.
Should have just did a poll, it's like putting beer in front of you guys during a quiz, focus darnit.

 

[uncle jim 62]

Funny how some say not debatable Gable Gable it's almost like you think he wrestle for Iowa,
John Smith = 2 time ncaa champ 1 time runner up same as Gable
Olympic champ x 2 more than Gable
world champ x 4 more than Gable
Bruce Baumgartner ncaa 1x champ 2 time runner up
2 time olympic champ 1 silver 1 bronze
world champ x 7 5 silver
I would say there's room for debate.

 

[ArkieHawk]

No one has had more of an impact on wrestling than Gable. Look how many D1 coaches wrestled underneath him. 15 championships in 20 years, 94% dual winning record 155 All Americans

Beat the Russians when they were at the height of wrestling and took home Gold in Munich without surrendering a single point!

The answer to your question, and the only answer, would be Gable.

Thread

Absolutely agree. No one in wrestling has a more “complete” list of superlatives than Gable. Others may outshine him in certain aspects (and Carl seems hell-bent on it) but no one has a more complete history and resume. In fact, I’d say he’s had more impact end-to-end on his sport than any one else on any other sport ... unless I’m confused and Michael Jordan is also John Wooden — in which case I’ll still argue in favor of Gable.

Edit: Yes, I live in Arkansas, and yes, I’m aware of John McDonnell’s coaching accomplishments in track and cross-country. His legacy as a college and Olympic athlete didn’t have the era-defining element Gable’s did. Heck of a Coach though

 

[24 so far]

Funny how some say not debatable Gable Gable it's almost like you think he wrestle for Iowa,
John Smith = 2 time ncaa champ 1 time runner up same as Gable
Olympic champ x 2 more than Gable
world champ x 4 more than Gable
Bruce Baumgartner ncaa 1x champ 2 time runner up
2 time olympic champ 1 silver 1 bronze
world champ x 7 5 silver
I would say there's room for debate.

Gable wrestled for Waterloo West and Iowa State. All Iowans know this, and I would surmise most know a hell of a lot more about his career than you do.

I won't see your reply Troll #121 on Ignore. Buh-bye.

 

[bammhawk1]

When Dake won his 4th in 4 years and how he did it was simply amazing. If you were told a kid out of High School would NOT redshirt and win 4 titles in 4 different weight classes in 4 consecutive years, everyone and I mean everyone, would say not a chance. I think in this argument you have to look at the guys he beat along the way also to get an idea of how big this was. To me, that is 1 of the grestest accomplishments in NCAA wrestling.

 

[Mendoza77]

I always thought is would be a good discussion to discuss the G.O.A.Y. (Greatest of a year.) Guys like Metcalf are probably not in the G.O.A.T. conversation, but what he did his Sophomore year was a darn impressive year. That bracket at the NCAAs was insane and he plowed thru it. Even though he had some blemishes on his career and did not shine at the world level, he did have a great year as a sophomore and would be in the discussion for G.O.A.Y.

Also, guys like John Smith and Kyle Snyder who won world titles the same year they won an NCAA title seem like they should be in the discussion. Dake never really had an incredible year IMHO. He lost matches in 2 of his years and he beat a lot of people 4-0 at the NCAA's the year he beat Taylor. However, Dake's overall career may put him the discussion for G.O.A.T.

How about Burroughs his senior year. He beats world team member Matt Howe, wins an NCAA championship and then wins Yarygin and the worlds right out of school.

Had Spencer not lost any matches his freshman year, he could be in the discussion for G.O.A.Y. He went thru some studs and did it in pretty impressive fashion.

Randy Lewis's junior year was crazy also, IIRC.
Bruce Kinseth's senior year when he pinned all 5 guys at the NCAA tourney was a pretty impressive year and worthy of being in the G.O.A.Y. discussion, but he is not even an honorable mention for G.O.A.T.

Who else had an incredible year, but would not be considered a G.O.A.T.?

IMO, the GOAY is Howard Harris, Oregon State heavyweight. In 1980 he was 46-0 with 40 pins.

 

[rossel 33]

Funny how some say not debatable Gable Gable it's almost like you think he wrestle for Iowa,
John Smith = 2 time ncaa champ 1 time runner up same as Gable
Olympic champ x 2 more than Gable
world champ x 4 more than Gable
Bruce Baumgartner ncaa 1x champ 2 time runner up
2 time olympic champ 1 silver 1 bronze
world champ x 7 5 silver
I would say there's room for debate.

Your comparing Gable to Smith's collegiate career is misleading...

"John Smith 2 time champ 1 time runner up same as Gable"

For starters, Smith went DNP, 2,1,1 in his 4 years.

Gable wasn't eligible to wrestle in ncaa as a fr, so he only had 3 shots going 1,1,2

But as a fr, Gable did go 17-0 though, won Midlands, and beat the ncaa runnerup and a former ncaa champ and World Silver medalist at that Midlands.

Gable had a collegiate record of 118-1. Smith's was 157-7-2.

Gable still holds records for consecutive falls and total falls in the ncaa tournament, despite only 3 years of eligibility.

Collegiate wise, not really very close imho.

Smith is certainly a favorite for GOAT for FS wrestling. His collegiate career was great, but many others surpassed it, including Gable.

 

[rossel 33]

Come on guys stay the course, looking for answers not who's best. Like do you high school loses also count overall when comparing two equal Individuals with same accomplishments.
Should have just did a poll, it's like putting beer in front of you guys during a quiz, focus darnit.

Ah.... I see what you are asking now. Sorry about that.

I would say, the farther back in time in a career, the less weight it deserves. Troy Nickerson getting pinned by a girl in 5th grade shouldn't overshadow his being a 5x NY state champ. Collegiate would be weighted more than HS.

Burroughs took some early collegiate losses and peaked later. Schlatter had his greatest success as a true fr. Sort of opposite trajectories, and favoring Burroughs.

Re collegiate vs FS, imo, they are sufficiently different (and GR even more so), that it is hard to dismiss great collegiate achievements, and say they all get trumped by world medals.

So saying Garrett Lowney or Mike Zadick were "greater" than Metcalf, because they achieved a World medal and Metcalf never did, is problematic, imho.

Likewise, looking at Cory Clark v Gilman. I would just say Clark had a better collegiate career and (to date) Gilman a better FS.

If you're just making it GOAT, without listing criteria or weighting, it becomes very subjective. And how much weight should coaching get?

Looking at it in its entirety, including coaching, hard to argue against Gable.

 

[Wrassler17]

Interesting topic...

- Do you consider college record as the only criteria, or does ones high school and post college career record count towards their position as goat.

Separate categories to me - best HS guy, best college guy, best international guy. And within those categories, there's best credentialed (titles) vs best wrestler (who did you beat, dominance).

- Is a loss, a loss, regardless of official NCAA record?(the Paul Jenn question) and should be considered when talking about greatness or swept over?

Can't really count the Jenn loss IMO because you don't know if Cael would have wrestled differently. Although it shows how special it is to be an undefeated true freshman.

- Is the NCAA the only measuring stick since several great wrestlers never had an NCAA governing body?

Shouldn't be.

- Is being a 4x the maximum achievement and override all others when ranking achievements, especially when some titles were not possible due to war ? Also for a time freshmen were not allowed to compete and never had the opportunity to win 4...

In terms of credentials (vs dominance) 4 tops 3 obviously. But being "perfect" is what matters most IMO, whether it's 4 for 4 or 3 for 3.

- Does post college accomplishments out weigh college or do you simply believe the debate should only be about USA wrestling?

Separate categories really, although comparing the combined college + international results might be the most fun.

Finally does success as a coach also add to the arguement as to who is best.

Totally separate to me, unless the topic is biggest impact on the sport.

 

[tigerhawk2015]

When Dake won his 4th in 4 years and how he did it was simply amazing. If you were told a kid out of High School would NOT redshirt and win 4 titles in 4 different weight classes in 4 consecutive years, everyone and I mean everyone, would say not a chance. I think in this argument you have to look at the guys he beat along the way also to get an idea of how big this was. To me, that is 1 of the grestest accomplishments in NCAA wrestling.

Dake was amazing but not sure your helping his argument by looking at who he beat along the way. Magic man was the only elite caliber guy he beat although I would put DSJ up a lot higher than I think a lot of non Hawk fans would.

 

[bammhawk1]

Dake was amazing but not sure your helping his argument by looking at who he beat along the way. Magic man was the only elite caliber guy he beat although I would put DSJ up a lot higher than I think a lot of non Hawk fans would.

Marion, Molinaro, DSJ, and Taylor.... multiple NCAA champs and finalists, so I guess I'm missing your point.

 

[pablow]

I'm not sure how anyone can question Kyle Dake's credentials at this point. He only beat David Taylor is a heck of a weak criticism.

 

[MonteHawkeyeSS]

Marion, Molinaro, DSJ, and Taylor.... multiple NCAA champs and finalists, so I guess I'm missing your point.

3 National Champs and a runner up. No big deal.

 

[pablow]

3 National Champs and a runner up. No big deal.

. . . and Montell is national champ caliber in my book. Marion's 2012 run to the finals through Mitchell Port, Boris Novachkov, and Kendric Maple was one of the best I've ever seen. Damn he was good when it counted.

 

[sstark46]

Dake was amazing but not sure your helping his argument by looking at who he beat along the way. Magic man was the only elite caliber guy he beat although I would put DSJ up a lot higher than I think a lot of non Hawk fans would.

Dake's finals opponents:
15xAA
10xFinalists
4xChampions

Montell is the only guy Dake beat in the finals who didn't win a title the following year (that year he finished 4th, but got hosed in both of his losses at NCAAs)

 

[bammhawk1]

3 National Champs and a runner up. No big deal.

Bunch of nobodys

 

[uncle jim 62]

23 and holding sorry you wont see this. I was just trying to add to the conversation. I will challenge you on how much I don't know about his career! Went to his camp my fresh, soph, and jr, year My brother and uncle both wrestled him and got there butts kicked! to me he was the greatest ever at that time. I just think there is room for debate.

rossel 33 wasn't trying to mislead. just stating ncaa records. Again I think Dan Gable is as good as anyone ever.

 

[rossel 33]

I'm not sure how anyone can question Kyle Dake's credentials at this point. He only beat David Taylor is a heck of a weak criticism.

Dake was great, but he had trouble with Taylor.

True, he beat Taylor in all 8 of their actual matches, but he lost 9 hypothetical matches.