This Kris Murray thing is starting to color my thinking about Fran...

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

There is a huge difference between Patrick and Connor's jump shots, especially from 3. Although his body motion is weird Patrick is facing the basket, finishes with his middle finger pointed at the rim and his shoulders squared. Everything about Connor's shot is wrong. He angles his body and falls away. His hand rolls the ball into a kind of spinning rotation instead a straight backspin. That's why he misses right and left and not just long and short. He shoots falling away. He just snaps the ball with his wrist and a short follow through.

We know Fran was a terrible shooter but he surely knows what a good shot form looks like? His mother played college ball and she surely knows what a good shot form looks like. Then this kid had a HS coach which is where you fix a completely messed up shot. That didn't happen.

His shot is not getting better it's getting worse.

 

[RocknRollface]

Rebraca plays a different position. When he is off the floor, except for the few minutes Big O gets, Keegan slides to the 5.

No, Kris plays the 5.

 

[RocknRollface]

Uh, there are two ends of the floor. My point was if he started and had to guard the five, he would likely be on the bench pretty quickly with Fran's two foul rule. That is why Rebraca gets more minutes. Now, to your first post, I don't understand why some of the other 3's get as many minutes over him as they do.

He does defend the opponents 5 whenever he's in the game.

Kris/Keegan can defend opposing 5s better than opposing 5s can defend them.

They will draw fouls faster than committ them.

Iowas only shot at a successful season is to play both together and make the opponents big man a liability.

 

[KcTo]

I want the Murray’s and Toussaint to all play 30+ a game. Good things happen when those guys play more. I was baffled that Joe only played 20 mins the other night.

100% agree.

Adding Rebraca and Ogundele splitting 40minutes in the defensive post.
Perk, jobo , Sandfort in the shooting guard or defensive #2 guard (Perk)
PMac off the bench to spell the Murray’s for 20m a game…
cMac only on mop up with Ash

based on the player statistical evidence, this would optimize IOWAs offensive and defensive efficiency which optimizes their chance at winning…

 

[SI_NYC]

Not sure you would be able to keep all three on the floor for 30 minutes with foul trouble, especially with Fran's policy of sitting them the rest of the first half when they get 2 fouls.

I'll reword it. I want those three players to get the most minutes. If they can stay out of foul trouble, I'd like to see 30+ minutes a game for each of them.

 

[Hawksrule78jp]

His offense is ok. But watch him off the ball on defense. He cherry picks, lacks toughness, doesn’t rebound, and doesn’t hustle/give 100%.

I agree 100% with this. He also hardly ever sets screens. He goes up acting to set a screen and roles off into the lane almost everytime. Bohannon I have noticed many times would be wide open if he set the screen instead of rolling into the lane. Pmacs guy sags back because I'm sure by the scouting report he knows he's gonna fake and roll. Pmac is a bigger liability then Conner imo. At least conner visibly plays hard. Pmac misses one of his most awkwardly famous runners and doesn't hustle back. His guy gets easy shots constantly.

 

[Lighting Hawk]

He does defend the opponents 5 whenever he's in the game.

Kris/Keegan can defend opposing 5s better than opposing 5s can defend them.

They will draw fouls faster than committ them.

Iowas only shot at a successful season is to play both together and make the opponents big man a liability.

I was trying to tag you, @jonesy5960 and @KcTo in this thread/chain just to be like “please tell me this dude isn’t serious” He didn’t even attempt to address my original question lol

 

[jonesy5960]

I was trying to tag you, @jonesy5960 and @KcTo in this thread/chain just to be like “please tell me this dude isn’t serious” He didn’t even attempt to address my original question lol

Too much craziness, bias and just nonsensical blather to keep up with all of it. At least this guy isn't trying to convince us that Fran is some mad genius who knows exactly how one particular player's entire game is going to shake out based on the first few minutes of play.

 

[CyberJJ]

He does defend the opponents 5 whenever he's in the game.

Kris/Keegan can defend opposing 5s better than opposing 5s can defend them.

They will draw fouls faster than committ them.

Iowas only shot at a successful season is to play both together and make the opponents big man a liability.

In a couple of games I watched recently, when Kris was on the floor at the same time as Keegan, Keegan actually spent more time guarding the opposing five, and on offense was in the low post more often than Kris. I realize I haven't seen tons of their games recently as I have had a pretty heavy work travel schedule. Purdue is not representative of the average when it comes to posts, but Trevion Williams was an exception to your comment about them guarding opposing fives better then they can be guarded by them.

Let me state my thoughts a different way. I was trying to make the point that Rebraca getting the minutes he is getting is not the primary rotation issue keeping Kris from getting more floor time he has seemingly earned. When he plays there it is not because it is his natural position, but rather a lack of quality post defenders on the team: Mulvey doesn't seem to be ready in the limited minutes I have seen him, and Ogundele still seems he can play short bursts effectively. I would like to see Kris on the floor more with Rebraca at the same time which allows both he and Keegan to use their versatile/numerous offensive skills to receive the ball and score from different positions on the floor. I think there are others that are getting considerable minutes that might better be going to Kris. That was the key point I was trying to make and I think we aren't too far apart on that.

 

[Incredible Hawk]

...and not it a good way. I'm a long way from getting into "Fire Fran" mode, but his stubborn reluctance to go with what is very obviously our best starting five is starting to wear on me. Fran has been good for Iowa. Fran understands basketball much better than I do, but c'mon. Can anyone honestly argue that Kris is not at least the 2nd best player on this years team? I don't think so, and Fran's attitude on this point is beginning to trouble me.

You're much more patient than me. I first had questions in 2013-2014 when Roy Marble Jr was the best player for the Hawks. The 1/2 court offense was to pass it around and let Roy Jr try to score one on one when the shot clock got down to 5......the names have changed, but the results remain the same. If they don't score early in the possession, a 1/2 way serviceable defense will force them into a 1-on-1 situation w/ our best player...

 

[RocknRollface]

In a couple of games I watched recently, when Kris was on the floor at the same time as Keegan, Keegan actually spent more time guarding the opposing five, and on offense was in the low post more often than Kris. I realize I haven't seen tons of their games recently as I have had a pretty heavy work travel schedule. Purdue is not representative of the average when it comes to posts, but Trevion Williams was an exception to your comment about them guarding opposing fives better then they can be guarded by them.

Let me state my thoughts a different way. I was trying to make the point that Rebraca getting the minutes he is getting is not the primary rotation issue keeping Kris from getting more floor time he has seemingly earned. When he plays there it is not because it is his natural position, but rather a lack of quality post defenders on the team: Mulvey doesn't seem to be ready in the limited minutes I have seen him, and Ogundele still seems he can play short bursts effectively. I would like to see Kris on the floor more with Rebraca at the same time which allows both he and Keegan to use their versatile/numerous offensive skills to receive the ball and score from different positions on the floor. I think there are others that are getting considerable minutes that might better be going to Kris. That was the key point I was trying to make and I think we aren't too far apart on that.

Thats fair.

They may end up switching for eachother on D sometimes but I've watched every game multiple times. Kris is usually the 5 when both are on the court together.

Now Keegan will post up because that's more his game vs Kris is more face up but mostly Kris defends the opponents 5.

And your correct, Williams is an outlier for big ten posts because he is so agile.

Most big ten posts have no shot guarding either Murray at the 3pt line where as they can do a decent job defending the post up.

But if you don't force the issue on offense then yes they will pick up fouls.

Its really a race to see who can make the other foul first.

 

[Madman_1]

You're thinking about Kevin McHale for a couple years. Larry started every game in college and the NBA. Kevin McHale started after Cedric Maxwell was traded.

No, I mean Larry Bird. There was a period, maybe not for a whole year, were they didn't start Bird and brought him off the bench. I'm thinking 1983, or 1984. I remember watching a game where the commentators were talking about how his stats got better after they began playing him as the sixth man.

Edit: I'm thinking it was 1985. That was the year he set the Celtics single game record for points coming off the bench, at 47.

Edit #2: I believe the main reason Bird was not starting was due to back problems. But, my original point is that his stats seemed to benefit (they increased) from him coming off the bench.

 

[KcTo]

In a couple of games I watched recently, when Kris was on the floor at the same time as Keegan, Keegan actually spent more time guarding the opposing five, and on offense was in the low post more often than Kris. I realize I haven't seen tons of their games recently as I have had a pretty heavy work travel schedule. Purdue is not representative of the average when it comes to posts, but Trevion Williams was an exception to your comment about them guarding opposing fives better then they can be guarded by them.

Let me state my thoughts a different way. I was trying to make the point that Rebraca getting the minutes he is getting is not the primary rotation issue keeping Kris from getting more floor time he has seemingly earned. When he plays there it is not because it is his natural position, but rather a lack of quality post defenders on the team: Mulvey doesn't seem to be ready in the limited minutes I have seen him, and Ogundele still seems he can play short bursts effectively. I would like to see Kris on the floor more with Rebraca at the same time which allows both he and Keegan to use their versatile/numerous offensive skills to receive the ball and score from different positions on the floor. I think there are others that are getting considerable minutes that might better be going to Kris. That was the key point I was trying to make and I think we aren't too far apart on that.

I don’t think it matters if Keegan or kris guard The #5, they both are very similar in their approaches.
You could argue that exposes Keegan to fouls is probably the reason to let Kris defend the pivot as Keegan is too valuable to expose to fouls.

but if that is your thinking, reducing their risk to fouls (and therefore increasing the minutes played), then FFS play Rebraca and Ogundele and use all 10 fouls To play D, rim protect, pound boards,

if they both foul out you still have Mulvey AND the option for Murray’s to play D

but FFS why let those to skinny speed guys get pounded down lo…

= massive coaching blunder

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

I continue to advocate for more Kris Murray minutes, and I was an early in the season advocate for that, 30+ a game IMO. Hell, I thought he deserved more last season as well. CMac should be a spot substitute at most 10 minutes game and that might be too much. JBo, unless he's slinging in 3s at a high clip, really doesn't give us much of anything other than late in the game FT shooting. Neither of those two should be getting starter's minutes. And Fran's unwillingness to run guys in and out more regularly drives me absolutely insane. How many times does the starting 5 need to play the first 12 minutes of each half before you sub one other guy into the game? It's bewildering to me. And these mass subbing hurts us sometimes, this isn't hockey Fran! More Kris, more JoeT, more Perkins, more Ulis, more Sandfort is what I want and expect. Isn't it obvious to Fran as well, and if it isn't, then why the hell not? I'm completely flummoxed by it.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

No, I mean Larry Bird. There was a period, maybe not for a whole year, were they didn't start Bird and brought him off the bench. I'm thinking 1983, or 1984. I remember watching a game where the commentators were talking about how his stats got better after they began playing him as the sixth man.

Edit: I'm thinking it was 1985. That was the year he set the Celtics single game record for points coming off the bench, at 47.

Edit #2: I believe the main reason Bird was not starting was due to back problems. But, my original point is that his stats seemed to benefit (they increased) from him coming off the bench.

Not personal but your memory is flawed. Larry Bird never came off the bench for the Celtics. I literally built my weekly schedule around Iowa and Celtic TV broadcasts-and virtually never missed.

There might have been a game or two where he was still stretching out in the trainer's table so he might have not technically started but there were never multiple games. The 84-87 teams were basically 6 man rotations.

 

[CyberJJ]

Thats fair.

They may end up switching for eachother on D sometimes but I've watched every game multiple times. Kris is usually the 5 when both are on the court together.

Now Keegan will post up because that's more his game vs Kris is more face up but mostly Kris defends the opponents 5.

And your correct, Williams is an outlier for big ten posts because he is so agile.

Most big ten posts have no shot guarding either Murray at the 3pt line where as they can do a decent job defending the post up.

But if you don't force the issue on offense then yes they will pick up fouls.

Its really a race to see who can make the other foul first.

Nice post. A couple of additional thoughts.

• Williams is not only agile, that game against the Hawks showed he is a GREAT passer from the post. I can't remember seeing a big have a better passing game except maybe watching Jokic.
• I haven't watched too many games with my travel schedule, but did see Keegan playing Williams in the post the other night, but I remember seeing Kris too as he got a foul called on what was close to a steal.
• I believe the challenge is that especially when CMAC was on the floor, they wouldn't have to have a big guard one of the Murrays because he could just play rim protector and leave CMAC alone daring him to shoot, leaving some of the quicker players to guard each of the Murrays.

 

[hopstiguy61]

The unusual Celtic win streak of 1982

How Boston set a club record with its best player hurt - and coming off the bench as the latest Celtic 6th man!

www.celticsblog.com

 

[omahawki]

Stop it. None of what you said makes any sense. It’s just a rant against AAU ball which it is what it is. And saying since they play AAU ball they peak in high school? Cmon dude. That is not a thing.

Really? Then you haven't talked to too many High School coaches. I coached and know several who have a lot to say about AAU ball. It's hit and miss. Sure my kid is 6'7"+ in high school and appears to be a BB only type of athlete then AAU ball would be a good deal. I preferred multi-sport athletes that also were in say football-track.

 

[Madman_1]

The unusual Celtic win streak of 1982

How Boston set a club record with its best player hurt - and coming off the bench as the latest Celtic 6th man!

www.celticsblog.com

Thank you.

 

[Sett1997]

...and not it a good way. I'm a long way from getting into "Fire Fran" mode, but his stubborn reluctance to go with what is very obviously our best starting five is starting to wear on me. Fran has been good for Iowa. Fran understands basketball much better than I do, but c'mon. Can anyone honestly argue that Kris is not at least the 2nd best player on this years team? I don't think so, and Fran's attitude on this point is beginning to trouble me.

Why are you far from the fire Fran mode? 12 freaking years of lame is enough.
He can't get it done.

 

[OutbackBowl2017]

Why are you far from the fire Fran mode? 12 freaking years of lame is enough.
He can't get it done.

Agree. Fran playing JBo so many minutes tonight late with Joe T on the bench was mind boggling. JBo can’t hit a shot or defend yet is out there. It’s mind boggling Keegan, Kris, Joe T, Ulis, and Perkins don’t play more often. Fran can’t help but play PMac and JBo when they bring nothing to the court most of the time.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Thank you.

Bird started the third most games on the team that season. Parish, Maxwell then Bird. It made a good story for a very short time frame. The numbers don’t support that it was a pattern.

 

[Bryceaf8690]

Not playing Kris and Keegan both 30-35 minutes is unacceptable IMO. Playing JBO is ridiculous right now. Fran needs to get this right as he is screwing up the playing time massively. Why was Kris not on the floor for the majority of first OT but then was in second OT? Makes absolutely no sense!

 

[mooresville hawk]

Not playing Kris and Keegan both 30-35 minutes is unacceptable IMO. Playing JBO is ridiculous right now. Fran needs to get this right as he is screwing up the playing time massively. Why was Kris not on the floor for the majority of first OT but then was in second OT? Makes absolutely no sense!

Minutes for Keegan and Kris were not the problem tonight. Keegan played 31 and Kris played 26. The problem is that the two of them were not aggressive enough tonight. Both of them were too passive on the offensive end of the floor.

 

[KcTo]

Minutes for Keegan and Kris were not the problem tonight. Keegan played 31 and Kris played 26. The problem is that the two of them were not aggressive enough tonight. Both of them were too passive on the offensive end of the floor.

WRONG…
Keegan played 6min in 1st half, and sat 19 total minutes, almost 40% of the game. Kris sat 50% of the game.

IOWAs best 2 players missed out on 43 total minutes in the game…

good God, had they played more this game would have been won in regulation….

 

[omahawki]

Yet Patrick played 37 minutes. Please don't pipe in "he scored 16 points". Have you ever watched some of the shot selection, flat footed rebounds, and basically standing around on defense. I've watched him several games where he does not even turn his head to locate the ball. They gave up 2 career highs to PSU. PSU is not a good team.

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Yet Patrick played 37 minutes. Please don't pipe in "he scored 16 points". Have you ever watched some of the shot selection, flat footed rebounds, and basically standing around on defense. I've watched him several games where he does not even turn his head to locate the ball. They gave up 2 career highs to PSU. PSU is not a good team.

He DID have that sweet pass to the defense when the Hawks had a man advantage because an opponent was down on the other end.

 

[mooresville hawk]

WRONG…
Keegan played 6min in 1st half, and sat 19 total minutes, almost 40% of the game. Kris sat 50% of the game.

IOWAs best 2 players missed out on 43 total minutes in the game…

good God, had they played more this game would have been won in regulation….

Iowa took the lead in the first half and held the lead at half time with Keegan and Kris on the bench. What about their play in the first half makes you think Iowa would have won the game in regulation if they played more? They played the majority of the second half. I am not blaming the loss on them as this was a total team loss, but I do not believe that Iowa wins the game just because they play more minutes in the first half.

I do have questions about minutes last night, but I think that this can always be the case in a loss. I thought Payton played well in the first half and should have played in the second. I also thought Joe should have played in OT. Ultimately, the players on the floor needed to step up and win the game though as it was there for the taking.

 

[Madman_1]

Bird started the third most games on the team that season. Parish, Maxwell then Bird. It made a good story for a very short time frame. The numbers don’t support that it was a pattern.

I never said it was a pattern.

 

[texhawk88]

There is a huge difference between Patrick and Connor's jump shots, especially from 3. Although his body motion is weird Patrick is facing the basket, finishes with his middle finger pointed at the rim and his shoulders squared. Everything about Connor's shot is wrong. He angles his body and falls away. His hand rolls the ball into a kind of spinning rotation instead a straight backspin. That's why he misses right and left and not just long and short. He shoots falling away. He just snaps the ball with his wrist and a short follow through.

We know Fran was a terrible shooter but he surely knows what a good shot form looks like? His mother played college ball and she surely knows what a good shot form looks like. Then this kid had a HS coach which is where you fix a completely messed up shot. That didn't happen.

His shot is not getting better it's getting worse.

Worked for Chris Mullin.

 

[KcTo]

Iowa took the lead in the first half and held the lead at half time with Keegan and Kris on the bench. What about their play in the first half makes you think Iowa would have won the game in regulation if they played more? They played the majority of the second half. I am not blaming the loss on them as this was a total team loss, but I do not believe that Iowa wins the game just because they play more minutes in the first half.

I do have questions about minutes last night, but I think that this can always be the case in a loss. I thought Payton played well in the first half and should have played in the second. I also thought Joe should have played in OT. Ultimately, the players on the floor needed to step up and win the game though as it was there for the taking.

Lets see if I can break this down

keegan scored 21 points after half, and was benched for 14 min in 1H.
keegan is an elite scorer and defender,
for example, in last 1 minute of regulation he hits 3 pointer, blocks shot, then tips in game winner…all in 1 minute.

why don’t believe Iowa wins the game if Keegan plays more than 6 minutes in the 1st half in a game that goes to OT?
please explain..??

 

[KcTo]

Iowa took the lead in the first half and held the lead at half time with Keegan and Kris on the bench. What about their play in the first half makes you think Iowa would have won the game in regulation if they played more? They played the majority of the second half. I am not blaming the loss on them as this was a total team loss, but I do not believe that Iowa wins the game just because they play more minutes in the first half.

I do have questions about minutes last night, but I think that this can always be the case in a loss. I thought Payton played well in the first half and should have played in the second. I also thought Joe should have played in OT. Ultimately, the players on the floor needed to step up and win the game though as it was there for the taking.

Lets see if I can break this down

keegan scored 21 points after half, and was benched for 14 min in 1H.
keegan is an elite scorer and defender,
for example, in last 1 minute of regulation he hits 3 pointer, blocks shot, then tips in game winner…all in 1 minute.

why don’t believe Iowa wins the game if Keegan plays more than 6 minutes in the 1st half in a game that goes to OT?
please explain..??

 

[cidhawkeye]

Lets see if I can break this down

keegan scored 21 points after half, and was benched for 14 min in 1H.
keegan is an elite scorer and defender,
for example, in last 1 minute of regulation he hits 3 pointer, blocks shot, then tips in game winner…all in 1 minute.

why don’t believe Iowa wins the game if Keegan plays more than 6 minutes in the 1st half in a game that goes to OT?
please explain..??

Sometimes players have moments where it just isn’t working for them. The first half was one of those. Much like Connor making the 3’s sometimes out of the ordinary events occur.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

give this group 5 minutes together to see what they can do.

Agree. Fran playing JBo so many minutes tonight late with Joe T on the bench was mind boggling. JBo can’t hit a shot or defend yet is out there. It’s mind boggling Keegan, Kris, Joe T, Ulis, and Perkins don’t play more often. Fran can’t help but play PMac and JBo when they bring nothing to the court most of the time.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I may need to watch some more but during regulation it seemed that psu did a good job of getting whomever jbo was guarding the ball at the point when they needed something to happen. He gives up penetration and the defense breaks down. Good coaching for psu there.

 

[hexumhawk]

Fran for the first 4 years was great for Iowa. Fran since then has shown his ceiling and it is lower than what it should be at a P5 school with resources.

 

[mooresville hawk]

Sometimes players have moments where it just isn’t working for them. The first half was one of those. Much like Connor making the 3’s sometimes out of the ordinary events occur.

Everything happens in a vacuum for many fans. Does Connor make, let alone attempt four three pointers if Keegan is in the game in the final twelve minutes of the first half? Fran was searching for a lineup that would work yesterday once Iowa was down double digits and looked lethargic on offense. They had only scored 5 points in the first eight minutes of the half and were down 15-5 at the 12:10 mark. Fran has his faults as a coach, but he did find and play a lineup that got Iowa the lead at the half. Connor scored 12, and Kris, Patrick and Payton each had 5 to help Iowa take the lead in the final 12 minutes of the half. Unfortunately, Fran and the Team did not get it done in the second half and overtime.

 

[KcTo]

Sometimes players have moments where it just isn’t working for them. The first half was one of those. Much like Connor making the 3’s sometimes out of the ordinary events occur.

Keegan only played 6 minutes…..
that is usually considered too small a sample set to draw any meaningful conclusion…

 

[cidhawkeye]

Keegan only played 6 minutes…..
that is usually considered too small a sample set to draw any meaningful conclusion…

It is a small sample set. 0-5 shows it wasn’t working. Could be the fouls, lack of rhythm, the shooting background, etc. it wasn’t working the first half. Not a slight on him, it happens.

 

[cidhawkeye]

Everything happens in a vacuum for many fans. Does Connor make, let alone attempt four three pointers if Keegan is in the game in the final twelve minutes of the first half? Fran was searching for a lineup that would work yesterday once Iowa was down double digits and looked lethargic on offense. They had only scored 5 points in the first eight minutes of the half and were down 15-5 at the 12:10 mark. Fran has his faults as a coach, but he did find and play a lineup that got Iowa the lead at the half. Connor scored 12, and Kris, Patrick and Payton each had 5 to help Iowa take the lead in the final 12 minutes of the half. Unfortunately, Fran and the Team did not get it done in the second half and overtime.

Ummm I am not sure what prompted this response. I very simply pointed out that in the first half it wasn’t working for Keegan and it did for Connor. No shots were directed at anyone and no aspersions were cast. If you honestly look at the game Keegan and Connor played against their tendencies in the first half. Pretty much a statement of fact rather than warranting a response.