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This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

NOPE

Withdraw Russians from those Ukrainian states and Crimea and we lift sanctions.*

*After we've extracted a few hundred billion from your sorry asses to rebuild what you destroyed.
They may want to be feared but most of the world just hates them.

 
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US-Ukraine 10 Year Mutual Aid Deal just announced. No US troops, but a 10 year commitment to provide materiel, intelligence, training....

Questions:

1. Since it isn't a ratified treaty, Trump could cancel it. Will he?

2. Does this mean we think the war might still be going on in 10 years?
Wasn't it Biden and Obama that failed to live up to the prior security agreement? The one where we forced them to give Russia back their nukes.
 
Hell...I loved it when Ghadaffi was trotted through the streets of Libya.

Is there any measure by which the overthrow of Ghadaffi didn't make things worse?
In Europe with greater refugee crossings.
In Libya with continued war, death and destruction.
And subsequently jihadists have fanned across the Sahel overthrowing ostensibly democratic, or at least 'western leaning', governments.

Do we measure the intervention on the snapshot photo op, or the decade plus consequences?
 
I was curious. Mainly Navy vs Air force.

What is the difference between the Triton and the Global Hawk?


Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk - Wikipedia


The Triton's wings are specially designed to take the stresses of rapidly decreasing altitude. Though similar in appearance to the Global Hawk's wings, the Triton's internal wing structure is much stronger and has additional features including anti-icing capabilities and impact and lightning strike protection. - Wiki

 
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Is there any measure by which the overthrow of Ghadaffi didn't make things worse?
In Europe with greater refugee crossings.
In Libya with continued war, death and destruction.
And subsequently jihadists have fanned across the Sahel overthrowing ostensibly democratic, or at least 'western leaning', governments.

Do we measure the intervention on the snapshot photo op, or the decade plus consequences?
Correcting the wrongs of a dictator are never easy or quick.

Look at how Merica is trying to recover from the damage of 2017-2021!
 
Is there any measure by which the overthrow of Ghadaffi didn't make things worse?
In Europe with greater refugee crossings.
In Libya with continued war, death and destruction.
And subsequently jihadists have fanned across the Sahel overthrowing ostensibly democratic, or at least 'western leaning', governments.

Do we measure the intervention on the snapshot photo op, or the decade plus consequences?
This being one of the NON-childish views.

Similar arguments could be made about Assad in Syria and even Saddam in Iraq.

Which is NOT to defend those leaders. But all 3 of those nations and the citizens of at least 2 of them are worse off than before.

You could even argue that Ukraine belongs in this grouping.

Is there a common denominator? Sure. In every case the US decided it wanted regime change. To be fair, we did Libya in substantial measure because Europe wanted our help to capture Libya's oil, but it was still us wielding the power of our empire.

In all these examples, we have operated to eliminate unfriendly regimes. Moreover, it's clear that if we can't convert them to a friend, we'd rather have a devastated failed state than a functioning hostile state.

There's nothing unusual about that. It's how big powers have always played the game. We should simply be clear-eyed about it.
 
It's not like this hasn't been coming for Ukraine for years.



Apparently, this is a huge deal, as Russia intended to capture this airport to serve as a way of flying military in. If this is true, this is a big early victory for the Ukrainians
eb080952-f430-4aa5-9ea7-0f990af9131d.__CR0,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg


This is a really good book if you ever want to read a well-researched treatise on why pretty much everything seminole97 (and Nat Algren before him) says in this thread is wrong.
 
In all these examples, we have operated to eliminate unfriendly regimes. Moreover, it's clear that if we can't convert them to a friend, we'd rather have a devastated failed state than a functioning hostile state.

Was Libya even in that category anymore?

He quietly turned over his WMD after the Iraq invasion, afraid he might be on the list.

The U.S. terminated the applicability of the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act to Libya and the President signed an Executive Order on September 20, 2004, terminating the national emergency with respect to Libya and ending IEEPA-based economic sanctions.
 
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