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justpin said:
Cael, yes. Probably the greatest wrestler in NCAA history. Tom and John Smith? IMO no.

Donny Pritzlaff, Kerry McCoy, Pat Santoro and Sammie Henson have similar NCAA credentials as John Smith. And the same goes for Barry Davis and Tom.

So by your statement, I'm assuming you believe those mentioned should be considered "great American folkstylers", yet the only three that consistently coach their teams to the top 5 are Cael, Tom, and John (the only Olympic gold medalists of those mentioned). Hmmmmmmm
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I think Minnesota has consistently been in the Top 5 as well....................... Hmmmmmmmm

So Tom Brands and Barry Davis, who are #1 and #2 in career wins for the best wrestling program of the last 40 years, 3x Time NCAA Champions, 4x Time All-Americans, with career losses in the single digits, are no longer considered "great Folkstyle wrestlers"? LOL!

Welcome to the world of Ignore.
 
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sloehawk said:
I think Minnesota has consistently been in the Top 5 as well....................... Hmmmmmmmm

So Tom Brands and Barry Davis, who are #1 and #2 in career wins for the best wrestling program of the last 40 years, 3x Time NCAA Champions, 4x Time All-Americans, with career losses in the single digits, are no longer considered "great Folkstyle wrestlers"? LOL!

Welcome to the world of Ignore.
Click to expand...


Great, yes. But amongst the top 5 Folkstyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? IMO: no. Now are Smith, Brands and Sanderson amongst the top 5 Freestyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? Absolutely. There are far more 3x NCAA champs than Olympic freestyle champs in that timeframe. Hence a main reason as to why Brands, Sanderson, and Smith have been arguably the most successful coaches in the past 10 years.

LOL
 
justpin said:
Great, yes. But amongst the top 5 Folkstyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? IMO: no. Now are Smith, Brands and Sanderson amongst the top 5 Freestyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? Absolutely. There are far more 3x NCAA champs than Olympic freestyle champs in that timeframe. Hence a main reason as to why Brands, Sanderson, and Smith have been arguably the most successful coaches in the past 10 years.

LOL
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Oklahoma State, with Gallagher, Griffith, and Roderick, and Iowa with Gable have the richest wrestling histories in the land. Their recent success (and sure future success) was established long before Smith and Brands. Penn State has the perfect storm going, with a wrestling-rich state and now the recruiting edge with arguably the best college wrestler ever leading the program. I love what Cael and his coaches have done, but it would be far more difficult in other states.

So for me, I believe there's an argument for JRob and Tom Ryan to be in this discussion. Minnesota has a somewhat rich history of top-20 finishes, but is now an annual top-10 program (though possibly not in 2015-16) with 8 top-2 finishes since 1998 and 3 NC's. Ohio State's rise has been more recent, but similar to Minnesota, it's a perennial top-20 program that is now in the upper echelon, and appears like it will be for years to come. Personally, I wouldn't trade Cael and his staff for anything, but what JRob and Ryan have done is commendable. IMO, even Rob Koll could be added.
 
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justpin said:
Great, yes. But amongst the top 5 Folkstyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? IMO: no. Now are Smith, Brands and Sanderson amongst the top 5 Freestyle wrestlers in the past 30 years? Absolutely. There are far more 3x NCAA champs than Olympic freestyle champs in that timeframe. Hence a main reason as to why Brands, Sanderson, and Smith have been arguably the most successful coaches in the past 10 years.

LOL
Click to expand...

I kind of get the point your trying to make, however your bolded statement isn't entirely correct. If you want to go back 30 years (or 30 wrestling seasons) back to 1985-1986 there have been 15-- 3 or 4 time national champions in college and 13 Olympic Golds won by 12 different people (John Smith obviously won 2 in that time frame). So while 15 is greater than 13/12 its not far more particularly when considering that the Olympics happens every 4 years and for the last several cycles there has been less than weights than college folkstyle has.
If you frame it in Olympic years starting since 1984 the number of 3 or 4 times only goes up to 17 while Olympic golds goes up to 20 (by 18 different wrestlers)--and yes I know 84 was weaker due to the USSR boycott. If you'd prefer going from 1988 its 14 to 13.
 
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Back to the topic...

Flo's top 20 seniors:
6 from PA
2 from MN, NJ, OH, IN, OR
1 from WI, IL, MD, CA
0 from IA

Flo's top 50 seniors:
12 from PA
5 from IL
4 from MN
4 from IN
4 from CA
3 from IA (#25 Happel, #26 Andersen, #38 Gremmel)

Recruiting:
PSU has 2 top 10 (#3 Suriano, #7 Manville), no others top 50
IA has 1 top 10 (#4 Marinelli), 2 top 50 (#48 Young), and hoping for #25 Happel
tOSU has 1 top 10 (#6 Pletcher), no other top 50
Lehigh has 1 top 10 (#2 Wood), 2 top 50 (#28 Weiler)
Neb has 1 top 10 (#10 Red), no other top 50
NW has 1 top 10 (#5 Reenan), no other top 50
MN has 0 top 10, 1 top 50 (#27 McKee)
NC St has 0 top 10, 3 top 50 (#11 Hidlay, #45 T Bullard, #50 D Bullard)
VA has 0 top 10, 2 top 50 (#20 Phillippi, #29 Mueller)
Pitt has 0 top 10, 2 top 50 (#16 Wentzel, #40 Bell)

Takeaways:
PA is by far the best and deepest HS wrestling state
PSU and tOSU focus their recruiting efforts almost exclusively on top-10 prospects (true for several years, ditto this year)
IA is doing okay in the arms race this year thanks to Marinelli; but losing Suriano to PSU and not being in the running for Hall don't help
MN, which presumably has money, seems to be AWOL so far
 
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TarpHawk said:
Back to the topic...

Flo's top 20 seniors:
6 from PA
2 from MN, NJ, OH, IN, OR
1 from WI, IL, MD, CA
0 from IA

Flo's top 50 seniors:
12 from PA
5 from IL
4 from MN
4 from IN
4 from CA
3 from IA (#25 Happel, #26 Andersen, #38 Gremmel)

Recruiting:
PSU has 2 top 10 (#3 Suriano, #7 Manville), no others top 50
IA has 1 top 10 (#4 Marinelli), 2 top 50 (#48 Young), and hoping for #25 Happel
tOSU has 1 top 10 (#6 Pletcher), no other top 50
Lehigh has 1 top 10 (#2 Wood), 2 top 50 (#28 Weiler)
Neb has 1 top 10 (#10 Red), no other top 50
NW has 1 top 10 (#5 Reenan), no other top 50
MN has 0 top 10, 1 top 50 (#27 McKee)
NC St has 0 top 10, 3 top 50 (#11 Hidlay, #45 T Bullard, #50 D Bullard)
VA has 0 top 10, 2 top 50 (#20 Phillippi, #29 Mueller)
Pitt has 0 top 10, 2 top 50 (#16 Wentzel, #40 Bell)

Takeaways:
PA is by far the best and deepest HS wrestling state
PSU and tOSU focus their recruiting efforts almost exclusively on top-10 prospects (true for several years, ditto this year)
IA is doing okay in the arms race this year thanks to Marinelli; but losing Suriano to PSU and not being in the running for Hall don't help
MN, which presumably has money, seems to be AWOL so far
Click to expand...

PA is also 4x the size of Iowa population-wise, so your numbers are a little skewed if you're really arguing the deepest. Population wise, PA and Iowa each have 1 Top 50 per Million residents.
 
I'm happy with where we are. We have Marinelli and some sleepers that are athletic and have huge upsides. The staff has us in a much better place than recent years.

As for PSU and tOSU: it'll be just that much more fun beating them.
 
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PA may have 4x more population, but actual numbers of participating wrestlers is far closer than the populations of the states. PA doesn't even have twice as many wrestlers actually wrestling in high school. Iowa 6773 and PA 9760 for the year 2013-2014.
 
LutherAce said:
PA is also 4x the size of Iowa population-wise, so your numbers are a little skewed if you're really arguing the deepest. Population wise, PA and Iowa each have 1 Top 50 per Million residents.
Click to expand...

This argument is so tiresome. Who cares if they have more people in the state? They also have more top kids, and both states have one dominant wrestling school. Advantage PSU.
 
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pumpdog20 said:
This argument is so tiresome. Who cares if they have more people in the state? They also have more top kids, and both states have one dominant wrestling school. Advantage PSU.
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They do have like 14 D1 schools. Not saying I wouldn't take the PA talent and 14 D1 schools vs IA talent vs 3 D1 schools, but it is not totally equal on all fronts. I am sure full rides from these other 13 schools still make Cael's job a little harder than he would like when it comes to cornering the market on PA talent.
 
I agree. I don't give a shit where you are from as long as you are exciting to watch and kick ass. Arguing what state is better is grade schoolish. Going to wrestle at Iowa is always a plus though!
 
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Just info...nothing more...
PA is down to 11 D1 schools;
ACC - Pitt;
B1G - PSU;
EIWA - Bucknell, Drexel, F&M, Lehigh, Penn;
EWL - Bloomsburg, Clarion, Edinboro, Lock Haven

Total D1 Programs = 76 in 2014-15
Fresno State and one other (Grand Canyon U.?) working way back to D1
 
RoarLions1 said:
Just info...nothing more...
PA is down to 11 D1 schools;
ACC - Pitt;
B1G - PSU;
EIWA - Bucknell, Drexel, F&M, Lehigh, Penn;
EWL - Bloomsburg, Clarion, Edinboro, Lock Haven

Total D1 Programs = 76 in 2014-15
Fresno State and one other (Grand Canyon U.?) working way back to D1
Click to expand...
I was not sure about the 14 schools. Thanks! 11 D1 schools in one state is a lot. It is not like these schools are chop liver in the academic and wrestling department either.
 
RoarLions1 said:
Just info...nothing more...
PA is down to 11 D1 schools;
ACC - Pitt;
B1G - PSU;
EIWA - Bucknell, Drexel, F&M, Lehigh, Penn;
EWL - Bloomsburg, Clarion, Edinboro, Lock Haven

Total D1 Programs = 76 in 2014-15
Fresno State and one other (Grand Canyon U.?) working way back to D1
Click to expand...


How about East Stroudsburg?
 
LutherAce said:
PA is also 4x the size of Iowa population-wise, so your numbers are a little skewed if you're really arguing the deepest. Population wise, PA and Iowa each have 1 Top 50 per Million residents.
Click to expand...


That is a weak argument. It is like saying Umass has as much talent as USC in football per capita. At the end of the day Pennsylvania is a big state and has more recruits. California and Texas are even bigger states and they have a ton of football talent.
 
#38 - Eric Shultz to Nebraska is what I have heard here in IL

I have also heard rumors (unconfirmed) that Isaiah White may have qualified, which seemed like it was not a remote possibility a year ago. It will be interesting to see where he ends up and if he can handle the much less structured college atmosphere/keep his grades up. I would view him as a high risk but very high reward type of kid.
 
I apologize if this has already been discussed but is Reenan still committed to Northwestern given their coaching situation?
 
Was looking at new Intermat rankings and noticed that Spencer Lee & Jason Rentaria were not listed. Are they injured? Thanks
 
Spencer is inj. and JRent is trying to get down to weight. (I kept JRent in).

My .02 is that Iowa has produced very good hs talent in the past. just seems to be a down blip recently.
 
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smalls103 said:
Spencer is inj. and JRent is trying to get down to weight. (I kept JRent in).

My .02 is that Iowa has produced very good hs talent in the past. just seems to be a down blip recently.
Click to expand...
That "down" blip is in it's 4th year and counting. The elite guys just aren't there, numbers wise. The Hawks are now battling UNI for the best Iowa kids since Schwab has arrived in CF.

Hence, the importance of gaining momentum with the Pennsy clubs that have resulted in Kem and Young to date.
 
idk. while it is nice to get in-state talent, guys that bleed black and gold and you can get more easily and/or cheap,

iowa wrestling has a notre dame football type appeal. they can recruit blue chippers from coast to coast. is it more difficult? maybe. but the hawkeyes will be fine with or without an abundant in-state crop.
 
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smalls103 said:
idk. while it is nice to get in-state talent, guys that bleed black and gold and you can get more easily and/or cheap,

iowa wrestling has a notre dame football type appeal. they can recruit blue chippers from coast to coast. is it more difficult? maybe. but the hawkeyes will be fine with or without an abundant in-state crop.
Click to expand...
Arguably... over the years, Iowa has had the most success when a good chunk of the team came from in-State. I'm too lazy to do the research, but having followed Hawkeye wrestling from the late 80s, I believe that to be true.

Guys like Joe Williams, Lincoln M, Metcalf, and a few other highly successful guys weren't Iowans, but the extended results in my days following wrestling tell me Iowa high schools played a major part in Iowa's titles.

The Hawks need Iowa high school wrestling to improve, imo.
 
I've always thought it would be an interesting recruiting strategy to get a pipeline to Eastern Europe, get some freestyle studs who want to get an education from an American university. (I recall American U and Citadel both having stud foreigners in their lineups a few years back, which is what sparked the idea initially.) Have a national champ from Kyrgyzstan in the lineup one year and a national champ from Bulgaria the next.
 
There's more than a "few" highly successful guys not from Iowa:

Banachs (5 titles)
Goldman
Chiapparelli
Williams bros (5 titles)
Kistlers
Lewis
Lincoln
Metcalf
Mocco
Perry
Ramos
Steiners
Zadicks
 
Spicolli said:
There's more than a "few" highly successful guys not from Iowa:

Banachs (5 titles)
Goldman
Chiapparelli
Williams bros (5 titles)
Kistlers
Lewis
Lincoln
Metcalf
Mocco
Perry
Ramos
Steiners
Zadicks
Click to expand...
Iowa's lineups at their all-time best were made up of at least 50% Iowans. I'm not going to research it, but I'm confident that is true. Iowa of course is best when they have top notch Iowan's, and others nationally sprinkled in. The State's talent absolutely has carried Iowa traditionally, and it for sure needs to get better. We can, will, and do recruit Nationally, but the formula was pretty clear for a long time.

Brands (5 Titles)
Zalesky's (3 Titles)
Davis (3 Titles)
Juergens (2 Titles)
Reiland
McGinness (2 Titles)
Ironside (2 Titles)
Alger (2 Titles)
Coach Gable (2 Titles):D
Whitmer
Fullhart
St. John
McDonough (2 Titles)
Borschel
Bush
Dresser
Kinseth
Moore
Smith
Schwab
Weber
Yagla (2 Titles)
 
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My opinion is that the State of Iowa has had a significant dropoff in top tier talent at the high school level since 2011, I believe. The Clark/Meeks/etc group of seniors.

There have been some extremely talented kids since then, just not the numbers. Coincidentally... or not, that was about the time that PSU was ramping up.

Maybe Iowa just needs to take the OSU approach to getting top level kids to move to the home State.
 
MitchL said:
My opinion is that the State of Iowa has had a significant dropoff in top tier talent at the high school level since 2011, I believe. The Clark/Meeks/etc group of seniors.

There have been some extremely talented kids since then, just not the numbers. Coincidentally... or not, that was about the time that PSU was ramping up.

Maybe Iowa just needs to take the OSU approach to getting top level kids to move to the home State.
Click to expand...
-----

Iowa's population of of 3m is a very small pool to consistently put out large numbers of the very best HS wrestlers in the country. Per capita they've done very well, but per capita isn't enough.

Iowa definitely needs to be pulling in elite out of state recruits, which fortunately seems to have taken an uptick in last year e.g. Kemerer and Marianelli - guys that are ranked in top 10 p4p or at the top of their weight class.

Cael is in populous and talent rich PA, which puts him at an advantage out of the gate. But beyond that, he's pulling in top 10 p4p guys from all over the country - McIntosh, Nevills, Nickal, and most recently Hall. McIntosh and Hall, I believe, were/are #1 ranked all weights combined. The fact that so many of these types have collegiate success shouldn't be a big surprise.

An analogy can be made to football. Alabama consistently gets a lot of 4 star recruits, and they are perennial powerhouses.

Cael is a fine coach, no doubt. But he has typically been building a team with the country's best HS kids, and when many of them turn out to be the best in college... it's not exactly shocking, and I don't think it's necessarily all due to Cael's coaching. At ISU, where Cael didn't have the stable of top p4p recruits year after year, the results were far less than at PSU. There is an element of the old "he was born on 3rd base, and thinks he hit a triple."
 
If you look at this year's team, it's littered pretty well with home grown Iowa talent.
125-Gillman (from Iowa wrestled in Nebraska in HS)
133- Clark Iowa
141- Carton/Ryan/Grothus all Iowa
149- Sorensen Iowa
157- Cooper Illinois/ St. John Iowa
165- Rhodes Missouri/ Paddock NY
174 Meyer Iowa
184 Brooks Illinois
197 Burak Colorado
Hwt Stoll Minnesota

So even with sub par HS talent, this year's team is 50% homegrown. The best incoming recruits are out of state however. With studs from Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois and California coming in. The best in state recruits are Happel, Wagner and Rathbun. All good but don't compare to their out of state fellow commits. It would seem that in the next few years our lineup will look less and less home grown. Hopefully we can land Alex Thomsen in couple years and start the in state trend again.
 
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Given the talent pool from Iowa... the Hawks are lucky they don't have to worry about the third State University getting the top Iowa high schoolers. Recently, ISU hasn't recruited Iowa too hard.

Iowa can more than prosper given the current scenario, but the out of state recruiting becomes more important, imo.
 
Iowa is always going to have a good wrestling program no matter what. Brands is one of the best coaches at developing talent from guys who aren't highly recruited. Iowa will always be a force to be reckoned with.
 
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