What are your reasons for being against Trump's wall? Under what circumstances would you support it?

[thewop]

I agree somewhat with the "it won't work" crowd, and also think we could spend the money more wisely (i.e. it seems we should have better technology to enforce it, like laser fencing of some kind). However, I don't hear anyone on the left offering up alternative solutions that secure the southern border. As such, it comes across as simple politicking, resistance motivated by nothing other than a disdain for Trump.

Key for me is that we force more people to the designated border crossings. When we can get people to cross legally, even if they overstay, we at least know who they are. To me, that's a small but important detail; simply knowing who they are at some level.

It's going to take more than a wall, we've got to reform the legal immigration system, and deal with the illegals who are already here, but ensuring you know who's coming and controlling the flow is step 1. Right now the US is seen as an easy target. If they didn't feel it was, they wouldn't try.

 

[Titanhawk2]

Being against the wall, and making it a focal point, means you don't have to address solving the total illegal immigration problem, and thereby perpetuating the status quo.

 

[tumorboy]

Rightht now the US is seen as an easy target. If they didn't feel it was, they wouldn't try.

No the US is seen as the easier choice. Among the foot travel population. Stay in Honduras and get pimped out or shot at. Or take a chance at crossing thousand some miles by foot, train roof top, etc etc.

 

[tumorboy]

Being for the wall, and making it a focal point, means you don't have to address solving the total illegal immigration problem, and thereby perpetuating the status quo.

FIFY

 

[IACub]

I agree somewhat with the "it won't work" crowd, and also think we could spend the money more wisely (i.e. it seems we should have better technology to enforce it, like laser fencing of some kind). However, I don't hear anyone on the left offering up alternative solutions that secure the southern border. As such, it comes across as simple politicking, resistance motivated by nothing other than a disdain for Trump.

Key for me is that we force more people to the designated border crossings. When we can get people to cross legally, even if they overstay, we at least know who they are. To me, that's a small but important detail; simply knowing who they are at some level.

It's going to take more than a wall, we've got to reform the legal immigration system, and deal with the illegals who are already here, but ensuring you know who's coming and controlling the flow is step 1. Right now the US is seen as an easy target. If they didn't feel it was, they wouldn't try.

That's disingenuous, the left has thrown out multiple ideas like better technology, increased staffing of border agents, and better regulation of employers. You just can't hear them over Trump throwing a temper tantrum over a wall.

The rest I pretty much agree with you.

 

[IACub]

FIFY

Beat me to it.

 

[JRHawk2003]

It won't work and its Unamerican.

 

[Joes Place]

Under what circumstances would you support the wall?

Probably, none.

Let's identify some key facts:

• Eminent domain: large swaths of the border are private property, which owners do not want property confiscated for a wall
• Wall is expensive, and easily circumvented
• Trump wants to use US steel for the wall; a steel company which is owned in part by more Russian oligarchs. See if you can connect the dots on that one
• Most "terrorists" have flown into the country; exactly zero have come thru the southern border; terrorism is not a factor here
• Most drugs come through border access points, in shipments with legal cargo, by plane or by boat; claiming the wall does anything as a 'drug barrier' is utter nonsense
• Things like drone monitoring and other technologies are far less costly and more effective in monitoring the border; you need those, anyway, to ensure people are not going over barriers with ladders, or using torches to cut access holes thru walls (and a propane torch is a very easy tech to breach the wall in remote areas)
• Walls are already in place in most areas they are needed

 

[BGHAWK]

Then you know it doesn’t support (or refute) the topic at hand, so why link it?

Do you have answers to the OP's questions?

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

 

[srams21]

However, I don't hear anyone on the left offering up alternative solutions that secure the southern border.

There are many alternative ideas in this very thread. Once again, you prove to be lazy.

As such, it comes across as simple politicking, resistance motivated by nothing other than a disdain for Trump.

Trump's "big beautiful wall" is also simple politicking as well. It's pandering at its finest.

It's a very expensive taxpayer funded wall that won't actually solve much of anything. Yet, Trump supporters chant it constantly.

 

[prlyles]

Looking for reasons beyond simply "not letting Trump get his own way."

I'm skeptical because I've not learned of any good feasibility analysis pertaining to how "the wall" might be implemented. It seems some robust analysis ought to be floating around publicly before funding for this sort of project is granted.

How effective would it actually be in deterring illegals? (we ought to be able to generate some number here, at least a reasonable target) How much bang for the buck there?

How much is it actually going to cost to construct?

How much annually to monitor?

What are the less expensive options, and how do they compare?

I suppose, depending on what the analysis says, I could find myself supporting the wall. In a perfect world -- well, not, perfect perfect -- we'd be able to make certain those that enter our country do so via legal channels. Right?

Under what circumstances would you support the wall?

Lets make this simple:
Why would you oppose building the wall on the moon?
Now, take all your reasons that you came up with for that question and apply them to this wall....simple

 

[Legend12]

Do you have answers to the OP's questions?

I’d be for a wall if it could be done in an economical manner, but we all know that’s not going to happen, so I don’t waste much time thinking about it.

As another poster stated in this thread (I think it was in this one) I’m all for stricter guidelines and tougher penalties for companies that hire illegals. When the demand dries up, so will a lot of the supply.

 

[tumorboy]

I’d be for a wall if it could be done in an economical manner, but we all know that’s not going to happen, so I don’t waste much time thinking about it.

As another poster stated in this thread (I think it was in this one) I’m all for stricter guidelines and tougher penalties for companies that hire illegals. When the demand dries up, so will a lot of the supply.

A lot of it is on the consumer. Are consumers willing to pay the extra costs for increased wages are on food harvesting, processing, etc etc.

 

[Joes Place]

A lot of it is on the consumer. Are consumers willing to pay the extra costs for increased wages are on food harvesting, processing, etc etc.

Wait....wut?
This might impact my $4 Extra Value Meals????....

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Vast majority of illegal immigrants enter legally and simply don’t leave. Most come on planes.

Link?

From the link:

The majority of immigrants settling in the U.S. without authorization are first coming to the country legally, raising questions about the effectiveness of President Donald Trump's plan to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border.

Crossing the border is not the way "the large majority of persons now become undocumented," the Center for Migration Studies (CMS) said in a recent report. Two-thirds of those who joined the undocumented population did so by entering with a valid visa and then overstaying their period of admission, the center repored.

So...66% of illegals entered the country legally and would not be thwarted by any wall, anywhere. And you claim this has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. So...again...

 

[BrunoMars420]

Again we need to invest on robots that shoot first and we ask questions later.

Imagine walking up on this in the desert:

 

[unIowa]

My answer is simple: America is in the tearing walls down business not the putting walls up.

If America is about spreading freedom, democracy, capitalism, and higher standards of living for all inhabitants of this planet we would be poorly served with a symbol that screams just the opposite. I know many of you don't feel symbolism is important but I do so while I am against the wall that doesn't mean I am against border security, I am just against stupid border security that makes it look like we are for isolating ourselves vs exporting our freedoms and values.

 

[unIowa]

Again we need to invest on robots that shoot first and we ask questions later.

Imagine walking up on this in the desert:

View embedded media

 

[Joes Place]

View embedded media

When the internets become sentient....the robots are gonna find this video and not think it was very amusing.....

 

[BGHAWK]

I’d be for a wall if it could be done in an economical manner, but we all know that’s not going to happen, so I don’t waste much time thinking about it.

As another poster stated in this thread (I think it was in this one) I’m all for stricter guidelines and tougher penalties for companies that hire illegals. When the demand dries up, so will a lot of the supply.

My opinion is an actual wall will cost billions we don't have and won't solve the problem in the number of years in the meantime it will take to build it, or even after it's built. This whole wall thing if reporting is correct is evidently Bolton and others put in trump's head to get him to talk about border security, and now he's sort of backed himself in a corner with the Mexico will pay for it rhetoric.

 

[FSUATT]

It's prohibitively expensive,utterly ineffective, and will do great ecological and cultural damage to the area, as well as leaving many American property owners on the wrong side of the fence or having had their property confiscated through eminent domain for no good reason, not to mention the damage it will do to the Rio Grande valley and its environment. I support increased manpower along the border and enhanced technology. I will never support a "wall" along the length of the border.

This is pretty much my feelings on the issue. One thing that bothers me is that I have seen very little information about the current wall/fence on the southern border. How much of the southern border currently is covered by a wall? For the part that is not covered, how much area would a wall actually be beneficial and/or feasible? How much wall can you realistically get for $5 billion, and how long will it take to construct it? Is any of this information available?

 

[Legend12]

From the link:

The majority of immigrants settling in the U.S. without authorization are first coming to the country legally, raising questions about the effectiveness of President Donald Trump's plan to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border.

Crossing the border is not the way "the large majority of persons now become undocumented," the Center for Migration Studies (CMS) said in a recent report. Two-thirds of those who joined the undocumented population did so by entering with a valid visa and then overstaying their period of admission, the center repored.

So...66% of illegals entered the country legally and would not be thwarted by any wall, anywhere. And you claim this has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. So...again...

And nothing in that quote says anything about air travel.

But thanks for playing.

 

[Joes Place]

And nothing in that quote says anything about air travel.

But thanks for playing.

You can Google that, to learn the facts, too.

But thanks for playing.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

 

[SeaPA]

Again we need to invest on robots that shoot first and we ask questions later.

Imagine walking up on this in the desert:

View embedded media

He looks like a badass. Can he play OT?

 

[Legend12]

My opinion is an actual wall will cost billions we don't have and won't solve the problem in the number of years in the meantime it will take to build it, or even after it's built. This whole wall thing if reporting is correct is evidently Bolton and others put in trump's head to get him to talk about border security, and now he's sort of backed himself in a corner with the Mexico will pay for it rhetoric.

Yep. And at some point he'll change is stance and blame the Democrats, or his last cabinet member who left, or Mexico and then move onto another "line in the sand" that he says is more important and needs our country's full attention. I honestly don't think Trump can ever be defeated at anything...he simply moves the goalposts and starts right back in and refuses to acknowledge others who are right. He and LaVar Ball HAVE to be related.

 

[unIowa]

And nothing in that quote says anything about air travel.

But thanks for playing.

I would be ok with a wall if it meant Iowa could defend the pick and roll better and they would stop closing-out out of control to the 3 point line...but that is just me. Seriously, I would probably make that deal bc of priorities.

 

[FAUlty Gator]

Why is his response lazy? The wall won't work. Trump promises that his wall will stop 99% of illegal entrance into the United States. There is no evidence to support this claim.

"No one will use it" doesn't seem to stop the left from yammering on for a light speed rail system though. So, you're gonna need something better than that.

 

[tumorboy]

Again we need to invest on robots that shoot first and we ask questions later.

Imagine walking up on this in the desert:

View embedded media

Nah we need some ED-209's

 

[Joes Place]

"No one will use it" doesn't seem to stop the left from yammering on for a light speed rail system though. So, you're gonna need something better than that.

I'd love a light-speed rail system. If I'd been riding one of those for the past 10 years, I'd be 10 years younger...

 

[tarheelbybirth]

And nothing in that quote says anything about air travel.

But thanks for playing.

LOL...and you think that matters in a discussion about how they enter the country? Thanks for being dumb as a box of hair.

 

[Legend12]

LOL...and you think that matters in a discussion about how they enter the country? Thanks for being dumb as a box of hair.

Yes, when someone states that "most come on planes" I'm interested in that. I want to see what countries those people are coming from.What kind of Visas are they on?

 

[tarheelbybirth]

There are many alternative ideas in this very thread. Once again, you prove to be lazy.


Trump's "big beautiful wall" is also simple politicking as well. It's pandering at its finest.

It's a very expensive taxpayer funded wall that won't actually solve much of anything. Yet, Trump supporters chant it constantly.

They also chanted that Mexico would pay for it. The Donald is the best deal-maker the world has ever seen - he needs to get busy. When Mexico pays for it...and puts in on Mexican soil...maybe...maybe...I'll support it.


Probably not, though.

 

[Joes Place]

As difficult as immigration reform always is, Trump’s fixation with the wall compounds the difficulty. The wall is not a product of conservative immigration policy, it’s a messaging device devised by Trump’s campaign to get him to discuss immigration and to help him stand out from other anti-immigration conservatives. Immigration restrictionists like Mark Krikorian and Heather MacDonald frankly tell the New York Times they don’t care about the wall. Krikorian frets about the “danger that [Trump] would trade almost anything in order to get the wall.” MacDonald laments that the wall “has sucked political capital from the pursuit of other, and arguably better, means to deter illegal immigrants,” as MacDonald wrote.

The anti-immigration right does not oppose the wall, they simply don’t consider it especially useful as a tool to reduce illegal immigration. (Because it is not.) Therefore, from the restrictionist standpoint, any deal that trades something liberals want for the wall is a net negative.
​

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/trump-shutdown-government-did-not-know.html?utm_source=tw

 

[Joes Place]

Yes, when someone states that "most come on planes" I'm interested in that. I want to see what countries those people are coming from.What kind of Visas are they on?

If only there were something called a "search engine" that could provide you access to that information....

www.google.com

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Yes, when someone states that "most come on planes" I'm interested in that. I want to see what countries those people are coming from.What kind of Visas are they on?

You're kidding. right? You do understand that we already know who came in on a visa and who hasn't left, right? You do understand that, knowing that, we know where they came from, right?

That you think how they came in will matter is...remarkable.

 

[Legend12]

If only there were something called a "search engine" that could provide you access to that information....

www.google.com

I've searched it and have never found a source stating the manner of arrival, so am asking the person making the claim to provide the information so I can read it.

 

[Joes Place]

I've searched it and have never found a source stating the manner of arrival

Then you haven't actually searched it.

 

[Legend12]

You're kidding. right? You do understand that we already know who came in on a visa and who hasn't left, right? You do understand that, knowing that, we know where they came from, right?

That you think how they came in will matter is...remarkable.

I never said it will matter. I said I was interested in it.

I doubt that you can discern the difference between the 2 because you have proven over the years to be incredibly stupid.