Why did Gilman shoot?
- Thread starter CatCoach
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If you asked me, who is a better football player, the answer is the person that played in the NFL. The NFL is the highest level of football in the world, and playing in the NFL makes you a better football player than someone who didn’t play on the NFL.
Now, the Heisman winner may get more pub, and become more famous. But that’s doesn’t make them a better football player imo.
Senior freestyle is a higher level of wrestling than NCAA wrestling. So, being the best in the US in senior freestyle makes you a more accomplished wrestler than being an NCAA Champion.
Just so I understand this...
You'd say Thomas Gilman is a less accomplished wrestler than Nico Megaludis, Nate Tomasello, and Darian Cruz?
You're replying to your own post. Not sure that isn't a first here.
So you would agree that if Wrestler A has more World/Olympic titles/medals than Wrestler B, he is the more accomplished wrestler.
Don't agree, some guys don't wrestle freestyle and start to work after their career, so it's not an exact barometer.
No way, FIX made a world team when Lee was recovering from the season. Fix went 1-1 and I don't think either Fix or Lee would credit that as a great accomplishment or one upping the other. I think each of those two guys would say "it sucked" and not use in any context of comparison, because they didn't perform to any standard either one holds them themselves to, but crab legs is probably the only one that would say that making a world team in a field that didn't include Lee is a one-up. I don't agree. Time will tell and that time is coming. Although, trust me on this one. If Lee is able to get it done, he will earn it and he will have a much tougher side of a bracket and I would bet money that Lee and Gilman will be on the same side of a bracket. Mark it down now, Lee will have to go through his teammate Gilman and if he sees Fix it will be at the end of a day, no way Fix sees either Gilman or Lee on his side. It is going to be exciting year for wrestling fans in an Olympic year.
There are people all over the world representing their country at the World Championships, at or under the age of 21. Sadulaev was 18 when he won his first World Championship and 20 when he won Gold at the Olympics. At the senior level internationally, Fix is just another guy.
It depends. You can see above I addressed the Brands situation. Olympics is greater than worlds.
Not specifically, just a reference I made. You must have skipped the part where I said there are people all over the world representing their country at the World Championships at or under the age of 21.
And there are some guys that don’t enter college either. I’m not sure what that has to do with it. Zain had to deal with Yianni, Oliver, Molinaro to make this world team. You think that wasn’t harder than any of his NCAA titles?
Fix’s weight had Gilman, Cruz, Tomasello, Delgado. You’re telling me that isn’t tougher than an NCAA tournament?
Some years yes, some years no. The NCAA season also has the grind and competing interests such as being a full-time student and wrestling 30 + matches etc., in tough environments. Why are so many guys taking Olympic redshirts? It's because it's hard to be a full-time student and do what they do. The NCAA season stands on its own! I used to be in the latter ball park, but now, it's an amazing accomplishment that in some years is harder than making a USA team, because of all of the competing variables. This point is is disputable, but I think it has merit. Getting through the NCAA season healthy is amazing versus peaking for three events a year. Making a team and winning a medal, that's different, but just making a team is a year-by-year comparison and by weight.
Really??? Kyle Snyder, Gold Medal at the age of 18. J'den Cox, Bronze Medal at the age of 21. They just didn't make the team, they brought home some hardware.
I already gave 2 examples of Snyder and Cejudo. Cox may have been too. Ok that is 3 guys (with Fix now 4). Give me 2 more since 2008.
I said it is rare, not impossible. The fact that the only people Fix is in the conversation with are Snyder and Cox proves my point.
You’re right, the NCAA season is a long grind and school makes the entirety of the process very hard. I’m talking about purely a wrestling skill standpoint. The skill at the senior level is better than at the NCAA level.
We can debate this all day long, but I don't agree. Freestyle is so very different. NATO is not a good freestyler, Delgado, not even close to being a good freestyler, he was a funk specialist and liked to roll around. Can't wrestle like that in freestyle. Two of the examples you give are perfect illustrations of my point, you're using their NCAA success to tout how good of a bracket Fix had.... Delgado was a beast in Folkstyle, but not in freestyle. That doesn't make him less of a wrestler or it doesn't mean that it takes a better wrestler to do freestyle--it's simply different. I don't think you can say that a freestyler is necessarily better than a folk styler--they are too different.
more examples to ponder, re who's "better?"....
Kolat or Bill Zadick?
Ed Ruth or Mike Zadick?
Nolf or Tony Ramos?
Metcalf or Joe Colon?
Mocco or Garrett Lowney?
The first guys mentioned above would certainly be considered better in collegiate.
But the second guy achieved higher success in international FS.
These examples just make clear that collegiate and FS are two different sports.
With the NCAA rules today Delgado would have to totally change up how he wrestled... danger rule, quicker on stalling calls, backing off the mat on his knees while holding opponents two elbows underneath after shot attempt...
Making a World Team is significantly more difficult than winning an NCAA title. With that said, yes, an NCAA season is a grind and winning the NCAA tournament is an incredible accomplishment... I can't recall which wrestler said it, but recently they commented, when people find out you were a big time wrestler, NOBODY asks if you won an NCAA title, they ask, "Did you wrestle in the Olympics."
Someone posted, some don't do freestyle until later/after college.... as if that is a valid reason that NCAA champ etc. could be just as impressive or important as making World Teams... It isn't. If you don't/didn't do freestyle, or started much later, you then failed to take your wrestling to another level.. J'Den was a late entry into freestyle, but because he so so sound and always in good position on his feet, he had success right away... The World Team IS the next level... but everyone has their preference on what they would rather accomplish... Dieringer, Nickel, 6 NCAA titles between them, zero Senior world Teams... Look at Cory Clark.. total stud... but the depth of skill and talent at the US Open etc. is so crazy he has not been anywhere near the top.
I can't assume anything, but did someone say Daniel Dennis would give up wrestling in the Olympics in exchange for an NCAA title? I find that hard to believe.
Clark is another good example. Total stud on top in folkstyle, but not in freestyle. Try to get off the bottom against Clark in Folk, hell, in freestyle they stand you up! He hasn't made the transition and I don't know if he can or will. As I've been saying folk and free are very different styles,. Gilman never won an NCAA title, but yet he won a World silver medal in freestyle.
John Smith one of our greatest freestyle wrestlers who won 105 international freestyle matches winning 4 world championships and two Olympic Games only won 2 NCAA titles. Jordan Burroughs has won 4 World Gold, two bronzes and an Olympic Gold medal, but only won 2 NCAA Titles.
I don't agree with this mentality, but tell me how many Olympic Bronze medalist sprinters do you know of? Not many off the top of your head without a web search, but most can name the Worlds Fastest. It's the same for most sports. Win a gold and it's huge and a bronze gets far less attention or accolades and it's a world bronze, but that's our society. I agree that winning an Olympic or World Gold separates you on any level and in most discussions, but I don't think simply making a US free style team does the same and doesn't automatically mean or makes you a better wrestler or separates someone from those that "simply" won NCAA titles. I think there are extreme differences between freestyle and folk style and some won't be great at both, but that doesn't diminish them as a wrestler or make one better than another--win the damn thing at the Olympics or Worlds and now we're talking....
John Smith one of our greatest freestyle wrestlers who won 105 international freestyle matches winning 4 world championships and two Olympic Games only won 2 NCAA titles. Jordan Burroughs has won 4 World Gold, two bronzes and an Olympic Gold medal, but only won 2 NCAA Titles.
I don't agree with this mentality, but tell me how many Olympic Bronze medalist sprinters do you know of? Not many off the top of your head without a web search, but most can name the Worlds Fastest. It's the same for most sports. Win a gold and it's huge and a bronze gets far less attention or accolades and it's a world bronze, but that's our society. I agree that winning an Olympic or World Gold separates you on any level and in most discussions, but I don't think simply making a US free style team does the same and doesn't automatically mean or makes you a better wrestler or separates someone from those that "simply" won NCAA titles. I think there are extreme differences between freestyle and folk style and some won't be great at both, but that doesn't diminish them as a wrestler or make one better than another--win the damn thing at the Olympics or Worlds and now we're talking....
Fix is not in the conversation with Snyder and Cox.
Americans 21 and under to make world teams 2008 to present:
Cejudo
Snyder
Cox
Fix
Pico damn near did it. Didn’t McKenna come awfully close or am I off on that one? I know for sure Lee could’ve. Are you saying that the young guys are exceedingly better prepared to wrestle top notch competition right out of the gate? If so, that’s been pointed out a hundred times already. Kudos to whoever pointed out that guys all over the world are coming in young and strong and ready to win world titles. Sadulaev, otoguro come to mind. If you’re sticking up for fix and comparing them to cox, Snyder and cejudo...read vodka’s post above. Very little comparison there. Those guys medaled and won and dominated. This was fix’s First shot and he didn’t do so hot. Didn’t Gilman get a silver his first time around? Weird.
Close? Could have? WTF are we talking about here?
Gable hasn’t
Spencer hasn’t
Yianni hasn’t
Hall hasn’t
Pico didnt
Crablegs, by your standards Fix isn't any good as he can't even win an NCAA title.
Well, I was talking about your ridiculous comparison. You generated one category that fix fit into with those guys who are far superior. So, I determined that you must be simply saying the young guys are really good these days...I could argue that Gable, yianni and Spencer would’ve performed better at worlds but that’s all hypothetical too and doesn’t mean a damn thing. Fix did something great by making the team. Good job. Is there anything else to go with that? Those guys i mentioned are at the very least right there. Gable had a brain fart, pico went to best of three and it was tight, I didn’t mention hall but that’s ok and lee is lee. I’m anti-Fix so there’s that...mostly due to the unreasonable #1 ranking given over lee out of high school coupled with the losses in free as sophomores. So you’ll have to excuse me if you’re a fan of his. I, personally, don’t like his style but I was rooting for him to medal. I had no problem with that. Besides, lee beating sh*t down his leg for 2020 after he won a world gold would’ve been a beautiful thing!
Fix has a lot work to do to be compared with KS and Cox not to mention Olympic champ Cejudo
1 of those is not like the others
Weird... they all look like Americans 21 and under that made a world team 2008 to present. Did I miss Crab saying fix was on their level? I thought he just said Fix has accomplished something only 3 other American's have done since 2008.
I actually went back and don’t see another one since 2002.
Fix has done something that only 3 other guys have done the last 20 years in the US. Those 3 guys happen to be 3 all time greats. Yet, people want to somehow think Fix is overhyped? Dude deserves the hype.
For comparison, here is the list of true freshman NCAA champs over the same time period:
Teyon Ware
Dustin Schlatter
Kyle Dake
Jden Cox
Myles Martin
Mark Hall
Spencer Lee
Yianni D
So, true freshman NCAA champs occur at twice the rate of guys that make a world team by the time they are 21.
It is a special accomplishment.
Teyon Ware
Dustin Schlatter
Kyle Dake
Jden Cox
Myles Martin
Mark Hall
Spencer Lee
Yianni D
So, true freshman NCAA champs occur at twice the rate of guys that make a world team by the time they are 21.
It is a special accomplishment.
Jimmy Carr made the team at 16...and placed 5th or 6th. That’s special. When three guys have made it before 21 in as many years, it’s not as special anymore.
