Oh, well pardon me that I screwed up a couple university abbreviations. Doesn't change the point I was making.
Big 12 expansion
- Thread starter grosie#2
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Well, Iowa was all of potentially three points (or one stop of Michigan State) from very possibly finding out if they might have played for the national championship just this past season.
The point has not altered. One of the teams you list is unlike the others. Yet, isu fans have for years been on this very forum acclaiming their team as good as those teams. Now we have your confession that flies right into the face of that. Which are we to believe?
There is football talent in areas other than just the south. Is is as abundant? Probably not. But, similar to men's basketball where isu has now turned its collective back on anyone prepping in Iowa, the talent is there. It must be discovered. Relationships (real, not perceived) must be fostered. Diligent recruitment has to take place and that talent needs to be further developed.
Enjoy the game day experience with say 50K of your closest friends.
i never said ISU was as good as anybody, I said we will all have the same amount of national championships in the next 50 years. I agree Iowa had a fantastic season last year, but reality hit pretty quick in the post-season showing how far away Iowa and MSU really were from National Championship teams.
Iowa State turning it's back on the state of Iowa for basketball recruiting has been a much better strategy than what Iowa has done so I think that's a pretty poor example
This is incorrect on two levels.
1. The reason third-tier rights were mentioned was to point out they are marketed differently; that was the whole point. If you will review the thread, you will see this.
2. My assertion that they were essentially even is wrong if the basis for that assertion (the $75 million figure) is wrong. I have conceded this. However, it also is wrong to claim the difference is $9 million.
It's all here in the thread. No goalposts moved by LC, although attempts to do so have been made -- and continue to be made -- by others.
I see that originally it was about expansion and 3rd tier rights were introduced by someone and we were told it made payouts essentially even. Which we have since discovered isn't true. The goal post moving may come after your diversions and deflections after your error or it could be that technically the conference pay outs are 9m apart because I don't think(don't know for certain though) that the 3rd tier rights don't get paid out from the conference(?) but are negotiated independently.
Let's go back to the premise, which is bogus: ISU has not "turned its back" on the state of Iowa for recruiting. ISU offered the top in-state talent that went out of state, as well as several players who ended up at Iowa, including Uthoff and Gesell. ISU was heavily involved with Jok -- some observers considered ISU the leader for him -- until the kerfuffle with Lefty Moore forced ISU to stop recruiting him. ISU gave Ernst a scholarship.
If someone wants to say ISU has not fared well in recent years recruiting in-state talent, that would be a fair statement. But it's simply wrong to say no effort was made.
Wrong. Sorry, but wrong. I have been consistent throughout this thread. When you and others convinced me the $75 million figure was not correct, I conceded this and also said if it isn't correct, my statement about the payouts being essentially the same also was incorrect.
I introduced third-tier rights into the thread because they have to be considered when comparing the revenues between conferences. That hasn't changed. I don't think you or any of the other rational posters disagree with that. The fact is that some rights are retained by Big XII members that are not retained in other conferences. This is a very basic truth. The LHN is the gorilla in the room. Another example is the material on the Cyclone Channel.
I never made any comparison as to the value of those rights relative to other schools, except to say that I was sure Iowa's were worth more than ISU's.
I'm willing to admit errors; I am not willing to pretend I made statements I didn't make.
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Either way Iowa has focused on in state recruiting much more than Iowa State and Iowa State's strategy has been better so I don't know why he brought it up
Tell us what cyclones tv brings in and then we will all know the difference. My guess the reason Pollard hasn't been putting up billboards trumpeting now awesome he is with cyclones tv is because it isn't bringing in very much.
Feel free to prove otherwise LC or any isu grad for that matter.
Until you do the "moving the goal posts" statement is valid.
Good luck.
No. What the Iowa and/or MSU bowl games showed was that anything can happen in a single game. Period.
Just one year prior, very few gave the Big Ten in general or Ohio State specifically much of a chance to win the initial national playoff championship yet that is precisely what happened. In your assessment that showed how far away every other conference and team was from National Championship teams. Think about that for a second or two.
You need to go to Memorial Stadium in Nebraska. They are very proud of their Academic All-Americans there.
Another poster asked how many regional teams even have a shot at a NC. Well, given that a school like Nebraska won several in the 90's (just ask their fans, they'll tell you all about it) and Iowa was just a couple wins away last year, it's probably not that unreasonable to believe it can happen. The football model is changing, parity reigns. We are in a situation now where a P5 team needs to win their division, win their CCG, and they are almost close to a lock for the playoffs. The days of having to go undefeated and then get votes is passed.
The problem with ISU's reliance on JUCO's is it is a sign of a program with issues. Successful programs are built on a solid foundation of good recruiting and development of that young talent. If you are constantly having to go out and fill holes in your program with JUCO recruits then your program has some issues, you are not recruiting the right players or developing them the right way. The only program that has been successful with large amounts of JUCOS is KSU under Bill Snyder. He's found a way to make it work or maybe just has an eye for selecting the right JUCO players. I would give ISU some leeway this season as new coaches do tend to pick up more JUCO players in order to get an instant fix of players who can run their system, but ISU has been pulling in a large number of JUCO's for years. It's like the Clones are always looking for the instant fix rather than going through the painstaking process of building the program from the foundation up.
Tomato or tomato.... you can argue semantics until the sun does not rise in the sky and it will not make one iota of difference. The proof is in the fact that isu has had very, very few Iowa players on its men's basketball roster since Fred Hoiberg became the coach.
Even when McDermott was coaching, isu fans were fairly vocal and adamant about not wanting Doug as a part of the isu roster. Sure he did okay in Iowa against other 'Iowa kids', but isu needed big time prep stars to get where they wanted to go. Doug opted initially for UNI, Greg was fired and lands in Omaha, Doug ends up playing for Creighton and now the NBA and, as they say, the rest is history.
Peter Jok was recruited by at least two Iowa universities. One continued with the recruitment even after Jok was injured and the other not so much. Jok ended up playing for Iowa. Uthoff initially went to Wisconsin, later transferred to Iowa and played his college career in Iowa City. Gesell, for the record is from Nebraska. The example of Ernst is laughable because he has already departed Ames without having played enough to even notice.
Rather than focus any real concerted attention on Iowa preps, isu has followed the path of 'big time' (think high dollars) recruitment of non-Iowa athletes for men's basketball. The mere thought that this flies directly into the face of the direction that the BOR has stated it prefers for its general student bodies at each of the state institutions is alarming. As long as the level of success is enough to placate the masses, all is well. Should there be a season/time when the masses become less than satisfied, then the real fun will begin.
That is only a matter of opinion... yours and has already been discussed/debated on these forums. Your bias is quite evident and does not allow you to rationally consider all the ramifications of such a strategy.
If you compare Fran's recruiting strategy to Iowa State's it's not a matter of opinion which one has been better.
I am not going to go down the very same path with you over and over. You have shown very clearly the inability to know fact from shinola (the Memphis versus Iowa versus isu comparisons come immediately to mind). The sole focus for you is winning a few basketball games, no matter what it might cost to do so. We get that.
As it relates to big xii expansion, we also get that you wish not to have to discuss that much which is of no real surprise seeing as isu has little if any say in whatever destiny awaits.
Congrats on that.
Iowa State has won more basketball games than Iowa and hasn't broken any rules to do so. It's not an opinion who has been more successful with their strategy. You can stay in denial but to say it's just my opinion is incorrect since the facts are easily accessible
isu also has lost as what a #2 seed to a team named UAB since Fran became the coach at Iowa. How does that little tidbit fit into your nice non-opinionated 'strategy'?
The topic here is big xii expansion. Your obsession with Iowa is all too evident, but not inexcusable. Go away.... you will not be missed.
Iowa State lost as a 3 seed to UAB since Fran became the coach of Iowa and has still been more successful in that time frame. No obsession here, just pointing out your example was a poor one and you doubled down on it when you said it was just an opinion who has had more success
Yep Fran doesn't take thugs tossed from the team at other schools. isu does. Fran doesn't take d-bags while isu does.
Signed,
Korie Lucious
Chris Allen
BDJ
ISU's basketball program should be dominant in the MAC or MWC. Clone fans have that to look forward to.
Pollard can have a field day putting up billboards getting isu grads fired up for MACtion.
big xii expansion.... knowing how tough it has to be for you to face the stark reality it is understandable that you want to cling to the relative insignificance of a few basketball wins.
(And Memphis football is better than isu.)
It'll be interesting to see what happens with Big 12 expansion. It's been so fluid, I just hope they don't add two teams just to do it so I'm happy they have seemed to pump the brakes a bit. Being able to pluck a couple ACC teams is probably a pipe dream but that would be best case scenario. Adding two teams will certainly help ISU in football so they can get the occasional schedule where they avoid a couple top teams
Really? Point to me/us how isu was helped over the fifteen year time span when the big xii actually has twelve teams in the conference. How many conference championships did isu take part in then? What meaningful bowl games (think January) did isu appear in having that 'favorable' scheduling?
2000, ISU didn't have to play Texas or Oklahoma and they won 9 games. 2002 ISU football team was probably better and they went 7-7 because they didn't get to dodge the top teams in conference. Iowa State very much benefited some years due to scheduling when it was a 12 team league
Oh, so isu was divisional champ in 2000? Again, I am confused by this blend of your opinion and what actually occurred. When was isu a conference champ because we have all heard how Iowa only succeeds because of its extremely favorable scheduling? When exactly did isu participate in a major bowl game that took place after December 31st?
That's where you make your mistake. All opponents are top teams when you're ISu.
Who said anything about conference championships? I said adding a couple teams will certainly help ISU in football so they can get the occasional schedule where they avoid a couple top teams, I never said anything about a conference championship. Going from 6 or 7 wins to 8 or 9 is a big deal at Iowa State
I did when I posed the question to you earlier. In ever so typical fashion, you chose to try to discard it hoping to deflect the topic to something more favoring isu.
Seeing how isu has achieved "8 or 9" wins only a handful of times, it is rather hopeful of you to opine that it happens with any sort of frequency. We are now in the age of football playoffs which has direct connotations of conference championships. To attempt to deny the importance of that is foolish.
I know it's a crazy thought but ISU fans weren't the ones who invented the Strength of Schedule metric
You asked me to point to you how isu was helped over the fifteen year time span when the big xii actually has twelve teams in the conference. I did that. I honestly don't know what you're arguing about right now. I never said adding two teams will lead to ISU winning a conference championship at all, I doubt that will ever happen in my lifetime in football.
How many juco's can a school take in before itself is considered a juco?
No, isu fans that always find their way here to HR were guilty of only carrying the SOS to vast extremes blaming it for everything short of the zika epidenic. isu has not always played the most difficult schedule, yet isu has perhaps the least to show in all of football history in terms of accomplishing anything meaningful in football - regardless of schedule ease/difficulty.
Let me go slower for you. The only reason of note why conference expansion is newsworthy now is due to its potential ramifications on football teams/programs/conferences. The NCAA has made it abundantly clear that it prefers playoff participation to evolve from conference championships and more importantly, conference championship games. The objective of most programs is to compete for the national championship no matter how realistic or unrealistic that may seem on the surface.
It is thinking/opinion similar to yours that will have its impact on how isu is viewed if and more likely, when conference expansion and/or realignment takes place. The 'head in the sand' approach won't suffice with those that ultimately decide that fate.
I clearly asked about conference championships and January bowl participation. You chose to ignore those questions. That is what you do.
Agreed, back when the Big 12 had 12 teams there were seasons when ISU had much easier schedules because they got to avoid the top teams in the conference.
That is a rather comical argument.... tell me which years of round robin play that isu did not get to play the worst teams in the conference. Make it easy on yourself and use any conference/team with the same circumstances for that matter.
isu is and has been one of the very worst teams/programs in major college football. It requires nothing be stated about conference or scheduling or anything else really. IF things were so much easier/better sometime in the past, isu would have found a way (as has most any other team you can cite) to have capitalized upon that and would have had more success. They did not.
If you don't think there can be advantages some years in a conference schedule that is not round robin I don't know what to tell you.
Iowa State football is one of the worst programs in major college football. Adding two teams will certainly help Iowa State some years. It won't lead to conference championships but it could increase from winning 6 or 7 games in a good season to 8 or 9 which would be very good for Iowa State.
You're arguing just to argue right now, you originally asked me when Iowa State benefited from a 12 team Big 12 and I pointed out 2000 as one example.
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