Brooks to PSU

[MVPFAN]

I didn't say anything about courage.
What I am saying: Cael has, in fact, sniffed recruits who were merely 2X state champs.
Correction: Nick Lee was only a 1X state champ, so the total number for PSU lineup is 26, compared to 1997 Iowa's total of 24.

Saying Cael isn't on Gable's level because he pulls more Top 10 P4P recruits is like saying Nick Saban will never be as good a coach as Bear Bryant because his recruiting classes have a higher average on the 247 composite rankings.

Lee who left school early and did not compete. Great example, lol.

 

[rossel 33]

It took great courage for Cael to take a chance on Zain and Joseph. Thanks for the info. Go away.

Zain was a risky move for Cael. He was only a World Cadet FS gold medalist. Plus, he "only won 2" state titles in PA, a state known for low quality competition. Winning 3 state titles in Alabama or Nevada would've been so much more impressive.

ss7 - yet another PSU troll

 

[IAChief32]

Lee who left school early and did not compete. Great example, lol.

Plus Zain had to sit out a year and won a little thing called the Cadet World Championship.

 

[pumpdog20]

I wish Mr Brooks would expand on what he means by culture and fit. I would hope Iowa would be a fit for any top level wrestler who can qualify for college and not be a trouble maker.

 

[ss7]

Zain was a risky move for Cael. He was only a World Cadet FS gold medalist. Plus, he "only won 2" state titles in PA, a state known for low quality competition. Winning 3 state titles in Alabama or Nevada would've been so much more impressive.

ss7 - yet another PSU troll

I didn't pick state championships as the measure. I didn't say Cael would never sniff a 2X state champ. I didn't make my point by comparing a squad with 2.4 championships per starter to one with 2.6 championships per starter. That 0.2 is a very important difference.

Sorry. You guys just keep saying whatever you want.

 

[rossel 33]

I didn't pick state championships as the measure. I didn't say Cael would never sniff a 2X state champ. I didn't make my point by comparing a squad with 2.4 championships per starter to one with 2.6 championships per starter. That 0.2 is a very important difference.

Sorry. You guys just keep saying whatever you want.

What you do is misdirection and cherry pick mostly irrelevant stats.

Here's what's relevant.... Zain was a blue ribbon, top 10 p4p recruit coming out of HS, #3 overall, and ranked ahead of J'Den Cox, IMar and Tomasello. Not to mention, Zain was a former World Cadet FS champ.

Zain was absolutely top tier coming out of HS. And the same can be said of almost everyone in PSU's lineup.
Cael's clearly winning the recruiting game. If he doesn't start with the best, Cael's magic fairy dust doesn't seem to work so well.

The big question is, is Cael's recruiting success happening on a level playing field? There is no proof (yet) of financial mischief, but many are wondering how he does it.

 

[cidhawkeye]

I didn't pick state championships as the measure. I didn't say Cael would never sniff a 2X state champ. I didn't make my point by comparing a squad with 2.4 championships per starter to one with 2.6 championships per starter. That 0.2 is a very important difference.

Sorry. You guys just keep saying whatever you want.

And to think we were just sitting here in our own little cesspool, and you decided that we needed your insights, well I didn't know you wanted to get involved in the discussion Mr. Helper, why don't you tell us why Carl is better than Gable.

 

[PSUranger]

If Cael was SO good, why couldn't that crew get it done at ISU? Surely he could have pulled all those recruits to his alma mater right? Not so much and it didn't happen, wasn't going to happen. He was not really a big draw here and was second fiddle to Iowa and Brands and not even a a close second fiddle.

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

 

[cidhawkeye]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

So you are saying without great recruits he is Tom Brands?

 

[Mpchillin]

And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.

Contrary to what is being said here repeatedly, Cael had top recruits at ISU. He had more top 10 guys at ISU during that timeframe than Iowa did.

 

[ss7]

And to think we were just sitting here in our own little cesspool, and you decided that we needed your insights, well I didn't know you wanted to get involved in the discussion Mr. Helper, why don't you tell us why Carl is better than Gable.

I don't know that he is.
I don't know how you could really compare the two objectively.
Both are hands down the best coach of their period.
Both got pretty much all the recruits they wanted.

And both have run circles around their contemporaries.

I wasn't trying to offer insights. I was just pointing out that there really wasn't a meaningful difference in the number of state championships accumulated by the two rosters.
I don't really think that's all that insightful. Just reality.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

Yea, I never understood how his time at ISU as head coach can be viewed as anything but positive. As a green, twenty something HC, he had very similar results to what the Brands have produced over the past 7 years. Considering Iowa has the much bigger name and more resources then ISU, seems to me Sanderson's short career at ISU can only be viewed as really successful. Especially if you look at their results for several years prior to him being hired and several years after.

 

[rossel 33]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

Exactly.

At ISU, Cael did a good job. But he was never able to win a team title.

At PSU, Cael's success has reached the statosphere. Not coincidentally, the number of top 10 recruits PSU grabs nearly every year has soared.

 

[ss7]

Exactly.

At ISU, Cael did a good job. But he was never able to win a team title.

At PSU, Cael's success has reached the statosphere. Not coincidentally, the number of top 10 recruits PSU grabs nearly every year has soared.

So, if Cael wants to be considered the best coach, he needs to get worse at recruiting.

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

Dang! He was good at Iowa State! Didnt Varner win a title there? Also, David Taylor was signed by Iowa State! How in the world did they let him leave Iowa State?

 

[Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan]

Dang! He was good at Iowa State! Didnt Varner win a title there? Also, David Taylor was signed by Iowa State! How in the world did they let him leave Iowa State?

But would Cael win at Northwestern like Pariano or Storniolo are doing?LOL

 

[Another_One_Bites_The_Dust]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

So, Carl was there for three years on another coach's recruiting cycle (a good friend of his who he dicked over), then left before establishing himself?

 

[pawrestlersintn]

So you are saying without great recruits he is Tom Brands?

No, which is also part of the reason he gets those top recruits.

 

[WF89]

Did Witlake end up at Okie State because he refused Cael’s deferred enrollment plan?

 

[rossel 33]

No, which is also part of the reason he gets those top recruits.

Sorta right, but needs clarification. How Cael is able to get so many top recruits under the 9.9 scholly limit is something of a mystery.

Without starting out with the lion's share of top recruits, Cael doesn't win titles.

 

[HawkFT]

To say Cael didn't get it done at ISU is not fair. I would argue he did every bit as good there as 95% of the coaches are doing today. And, as is being said here repeatedly, he did it without top recruits.


In 2007, during Sanderson's rookie campaign, he led ISU to a 13-3 dual meet record and the first of three straight Big 12 Championships. An outstanding NCAA runner-up finish in Detroit capped off a wildly successful year as the Cyclones crowned one national champion and Sanderson was honored as Big 12 Coach of the Year, National Rookie Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year. The next year, Sanderson led ISU to a 16-4 dual meet mark, another Big 12 title and a fifth place finish at nationals. Iowa State's seven All-Americans in 2008 were the most at the school since 1993.

In 2009, Sanderson's team went 15-3 in duals, won its third straight Big 12 title and took third place at the NCAA Championships in St. Louis (just 12 points out of first place). The Cyclones also crowned another National Champion. In three years at Iowa State, Sanderson's teams went 44-10, won three conference crowns, qualified all 30 wrestlers for nationals, earned 15 All-American awards and two individual national titles.

three years with three top 5 finishes and, amazingly, 30 out of 30 qualifiers.

Guess you missed the part where he played 2nd fiddle to TB and the Hawks. No where near what is transpiring at PSU. Couldn't get it done there! If it was so amazing he would have stayed at his alma mater. He knew he was second fiddle and got boat raced out of Ames. I will give you this, he has MUCH better funding at PSU!

 

[Johnbrooks]

I wish Mr Brooks would expand on what he means by culture and fit. I would hope Iowa would be a fit for any top level wrestler who can qualify for college and not be a trouble maker.

Culture and fit. Each area of the country is different. Aaron is an east coast kid. He feels comfortable around like people as most young people do. It’s a little different in the midwestern area. Proximity to home was a deciding factor also, PSU is 2 hours from home. My oldest son went to Iowa Central for a year. He didn’t like being that far away. They’re kids trying to become adults. All are different. Hope that helps. Never any knocks on Iowa from me. Im a big Brands, Gable and Metcalf fan, have always enjoyed Spencer. He and Aaron were on a duals team when Aaron was 7. We have known him every since.

 

[07mantle]

3 things:
1-is PSU cheating or at very least working extreme grey area- just to be safe I will say that it is as close to certain as can be
2-do you think any PSU fan would admit that? Would you if it were iowa? Keep in mind this is same fan base and athletic Department that allowed/condoned/denied/turned back etc. on a child molestation crime, they are lucky they have an athletic program at all
3-even though it’s probably true-we should move on bc we sound like sissy’s making excuses on here.

you lose any credibility as a poster when you need to ‘solidify’ your argument with #2

 

[cidhawkeye]

No, which is also part of the reason he gets those top recruits.

So he's not a great coach, the f** crew won't like you doing that.

 

[NeedMoreIronside]

Thanks for the feedback, that you by no means had to provide. As passionate fans we always want to know the reasons why we miss out on highly talented kids like your son. Although I think he'd look much better in the black and gold, I wish him nothing but the best moving forward.

 

[BoroBuilt]

Gable had a few elite recruits...I'll give you that but he never had a team where almost all of them were top ten P4P. Not ever. Why?

1)Wrestling was very regional
2)A lot more three sport athletes whereas they now specialize
3)We know much more about the recruits then we did then;

Gable got a lot of Iowa kids. Guys like Ironside...he was "only" a two time state champ. Today, he wouldn't get a sniff from Cael. The average ranking for guys from PSU are #15 IIRC. The avg from Iowa is in the 40s to 50s.

Here was Gable's 1997 NCAA Record breaking team...maybe not his best team, it's debatable but we'll go with them because that's who PSU is chasing:

118:Jessie Whitmer-Zero State champ-Iowa (I think)
126:Mike Mena-4X State Champ Illinois
134; Mark Ironside-2X State Champ-Iowa
142: Kasey Gillis-3X State Champ, ND
150:LMAC-5X State Champ, SD
158: Joe Williams-4X Illinois
167: Mike Uker-No state titles-Iowa
177: Tony Ersland-2X Iowa
190: Lee Fullhart-3X Iowa
HWY: Wes Hand-1X Iowa

So out of the guys on the 97 team, how many would Cael even look at? Mena, LMAC, Williams, and maybe Gillis. Hell, Cael recruited that many P4P studs in one year.

The great Cael was still Cael at Iowa State but didn't pull in recruits to even close to the level he is now...for those of you making that argument. Kids then had grown up watching him wrestle and had witnessed his gold medal. He had the same 9.9 as Iowa plus its not like he had to start over at Iowa State...he transitioned into head coach and had done their recruiting as an assistant. But Brands came in and beat him when they were on the same turf. So what changed? PA is great but he has shown no real loyalty to the kids in the state. Next year, there are not going to be very many PA kids starting...mostly out of staters. PSU is a nice university but let's not kid ourselves...most kids come to wrestle first.

Psu will have the same amount of pa native starters next year. Zain and Keener leave and Teasdale and Verkleeren move in. 4 our of ten of last years ncaa champs were from pa. All underclassmen, 3 at psu. Location has a lot to do with penn state’s success.

 

[BoroBuilt]

Did Witlake end up at Okie State because he refused Cael’s deferred enrollment plan?

I would guess that Brooks coming in may have been a factor (that commit has been assumed for awhile). He did an interview saying that he regretted not visiting ok st the first time around and loved Stillwater when he finally took his official. Obviously Iowa wasn’t in his top 2 choices.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Sorta right, but needs clarification. How Cael is able to get so many top recruits under the 9.9 scholly limit is something of a mystery.

Without starting out with the lion's share of top recruits, Cael doesn't win titles.

rossel, you are a walking defense mechanism, rivaled only by jammanz. Here's a "fun" fact for you to suppress:

Iowa has finished behind a team other than PSU for each of the last 7 years. During that time frame Iowa has had THREE #1 recruiting classes.

btw, how about that non 100 recruit from Penn State knocking off #1 in the country!?

 

[IAChief32]

So, if Cael wants to be considered the best coach, he needs to get worse at recruiting.

That's the whole point and something the PSU fans that drop in here think is a backhanded compliment. Recruiting is a part of college coaching. It is what makes Cael the best coach in college wrestling. Unless you changed your screenname, you are new so its been an ongoing debate here which is Tom is better at developing, Cael at recruiting. Developing doesn't cut bait anymore because so many of these elite guys are ready to roll and contend before they step into a college room. Spencer Lee would have been just as good at tOSU,PSU etc as he is right now. However, he is going to have to improve to totally dominate the weight class week in and week out and go out and win a World Title.

 

[pablow]

That's the whole point and something the PSU fans that drop in here think is a backhanded compliment. Recruiting is a part of college coaching. It is what makes Cael the best coach in college wrestling. Unless you changed your screenname, you are new so its been an ongoing debate here which is Tom is better at developing, Cael at recruiting. Developing doesn't cut bait anymore because so many of these elite guys are ready to roll and contend before they step into a college room. Spencer Lee would have been just as good at tOSU,PSU etc as he is right now. However, he is going to have to improve to totally dominate the weight class week in and week out and go out and win a World Title.

I think Cael does a great job bringing along his bluechip wrestlers. However, his mediocre wrestlers look similar to other team's average wrestlers.

 

[ss7]

That's the whole point and something the PSU fans that drop in here think is a backhanded compliment. Recruiting is a part of college coaching. It is what makes Cael the best coach in college wrestling. Unless you changed your screenname, you are new so its been an ongoing debate here which is Tom is better at developing, Cael at recruiting. Developing doesn't cut bait anymore because so many of these elite guys are ready to roll and contend before they step into a college room. Spencer Lee would have been just as good at tOSU,PSU etc as he is right now. However, he is going to have to improve to totally dominate the weight class week in and week out and go out and win a World Title.

I'm a new commenter, but a long time lurker.

And I just find it funny to say that Cael is too good at one aspect of his job to be considered the best at his job.

I'll go back to what I said above. Gable and Cael are clearly the best coaches of their eras. Both got pretty much all the recruits they wanted. Making objective statements about who is the best developer of wrestling talent across different eras is nearly impossible.

There seems to be this notion that Gable won with a bunch of kids he found in the parking lot at a Safeway, while Cael has won with the best high school recruit every year at every weight. Neither is true. Gable got plenty of studs. Cael has plenty of kids who "only" won two state titles.

Interestingly, the PSU lineup that just beat OSU had 5 top 10 P4P (maybe 6, I can't remember if Lee was) compared to OSU's 8 top 10 P4P recruits.

And let's be honest here. It is absolutely a backhanded compliment.

 

[pablow]

I'm a new commenter, but a long time lurker.

And I just find it funny to say that Cael is too good at one aspect of his job to be considered the best at his job.

I'll go back to what I said above. Gable and Cael are clearly the best coaches of their eras. Both got pretty much all the recruits they wanted. Making objective statements about who is the best developer of wrestling talent across different eras is nearly impossible.

There seems to be this notion that Gable won with a bunch of kids he found in the parking lot at a Safeway, while Cael has won with the best high school recruit every year at every weight. Neither is true. Gable got plenty of studs. Cael has plenty of kids who "only" won two state titles.

Interestingly, the team that PSU lineup that just beat OSU had 5 top 10 P4P (maybe 6, I can't remember if Lee was) compared to OSU's 8 top 10 P4P recruits.

And let's be honest here. It is absolutely a backhanded compliment.

Has Penn State ever won a national championship as an underdog?

Where did you get the idea that the number of state high school championships won is the gold standard for ranking recruits?

Gable and Cael had different approaches. You might want to study up on that.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Cael coaching vs recruiting discussion

 

[BoroBuilt]

Has Penn State ever won a national championship as an underdog?

Where did you get the idea that the number of state high school championships won is the gold standard for ranking recruits?

Gable and Cael had different approaches. You might want to study up on that.

Is this a serious question? Almost every year the rankers have had another team ranked 1st for big chunks of the year. Back 5 or 6 years ago Minnesota and okie state both had a shot going into the finals (Gwiz beat Nelson that year). Last year Ohio state won bigs and people were picking against psu as soon as Suriano was ruled out. They wound up blowing out the field without a potential finalist at 125.

 

[pablow]

Is this a serious question? Almost every year the rankers have had another team ranked 1st for big chunks of the year. Back 5 or 6 years ago Minnesota and okie state both had a shot going into the finals (Gwiz beat Nelson that year). Last year Ohio state won bigs and people were picking against psu as soon as Suriano was ruled out. They wound up blowing out the field without a potential finalist at 125.

So PSU has been the underdog almost every year. Learn something new every day. The legend grows.

 

[ss7]

Where did you get the idea that the number of state high school championships won is the gold standard for ranking recruits?

I don't think it's the gold standard. But it is one of the only consistent standards.

I don't know where to find P4P recruit rankings going back to the 1970s. If you know where I can find them, please share.

But to answer your question, IAChief32's post referencing state championships is what led me to reference them as well.

 

[pablow]

I don't think it's the gold standard. But it is one of the only consistent standards.

I don't know where to find P4P recruit rankings going back to the 1970s. If you know where I can find them, please share.

But to answer your question, IAChief32's post referencing state championships is what led me to reference them as well.

It's hard finding p4p rankings back that far. Got to kind of wing it - look at the HS all-american teams and what not.

 

[ss7]

It's hard finding p4p rankings back that far. Got to kind of wing it - look at the HS all-american teams and what not.

So, when people say that Cael gets more top 10 P4P recruits than Gable did...the fact that one of those is measurable and one isn't (instead it is "winged") doesn't give you pause?

Cael isn't the coach Gable is because Cael gets more top 10 P4P recruits than Gable got, even though we don't actually know how many top 10 P4P recruits Gable got.

That's a less than convincing argument to me. But that's just me.

 

[IAChief32]

It's hard finding p4p rankings back that far. Got to kind of wing it - look at the HS all-american teams and what not.

Thats why I included Gillis...second team ASICS. Joe, Mac and Mena were nationally credentialed. Winning two state championships in the state of Iowa or winning 4 in South Dakota doesn't mean much if there are no national credentials now. For example, the fall after Cenzo won his first state championship, he's wrestling in Who's #1 against Stroker (I believe). Why? Because of his results in freestyle and PA being the best high school wrestling state. Back then, it was one of the few ways to measure somebody.

Also, our friend SS7 is complete ignoring what I wrote about it being different...about how much more knowledge we have of recruits vs then. For example, a California 4 timer would have been heavily recruited in the 90s. But quite a few folks took a flyer on Mejia after he decommitted from Iowa. Flo was dubious of him because of no freestyle and no national tourney wins like Super 32...which started in the mid 90s. SS7 leapt on the state championship thing and is being disingenuous...It's like saying Manville never won a state title...because he was at a prep school. I guess I should have s-p-e-l-l-e-d it out...my bad.

 

[CholleyVandine]

By my quick count, there were 26 former top-10 recruits at the NCAA tournament last year.

Six of them won titles. Five of the six wrestle for the same coach.

If I'm an elite recruit looking for the coach who will help me reach my potential, that's the only data point I need.