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Fix to 125

82bordeaux said:
4-2 and 2-1 last time they wrestled. And Nolf had the only scored TD in the 2 bouts. I wouldn't bet the farm. Age is undefeated.
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Fandom slants everyone's perspective. It is completely natural. You argue with fans on here over Spencer's (lack of) greatness, while putting forward a slant for one of your own. Mind you, my favorite PSU wrestler during the Cael era is Nolf BY FAR, but there is no way in hell I would pick him over Dake until Dake either gets seriously injured or clearly shows a lack of interest.

4-2 and 2-1 doesn't make me all of a sudden think Nolf can win. Those are the kind of chess matches Dake essentially ALWAYS wins. Now, If Nolf was losing 14-12 or 12-11, then I would worry. It would show me he can actually force Dake into bad positions often and is actually able to force Dake to open up.

Dake is just that good. I know he isn't a PSU guy, but come on. If he didn't have Burroughs at his ideal weight for so long, he would be nearly as decorated now as JB is and JB is now arguably the best US Freeestyler of ALL TIME!
 
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mcpat said:
I’ll take Spencer’s true freshman season out to help the comparison (as some have argued it’s not fair to include his losses as a true freshman when so many PSU guys redshirted).

When I do, he’s 61-3 with two losses to Seabass and a loss to Picininni. Great wrestlers, but neither made an NCAA final let alone win an NCAA Championship.

Ruth was 136-3. Taylor was 134-3. Retherford (who did start as a true freshman) was 126-3. Nickal was 120-3. Nolf was 117-3. Brooks is 55-3. Starocci is 45-2.

56 of Spencer’s 61 wins (91.8%) since his freshman year have been by bonus and I expect that % will only grow higher the rest of this season. But 125 of Taylor’s 134 (93.3%) wins were by bonus.

Taylor lost only to Jenkins (NCAA champ) and Dake (4x NCAA Champ)

Nolf lost only to IMAR (2x NCAA champ) and by injury default.

We’re comparing greatness to greatness; they’re all great. But maybe this helps explain why some PSU fans put Spencer with the PSU guys mentioned above instead of above them.

All that being said, if Spencer wins his 4th title this year, he’ll also likely end up 2nd (and prob at worst 4th) in all-time NCAA tournament scoring. If that happens, he’ll have added significantly to his resume as compared to the above-mentioned PSU greats.
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I stopped after the second paragraph. Taking losses while battling significant injuries doesn’t diminish one’s greatness. He was at about 50% in the first Rivera match and Picc match. Slightly better but still not great at B1Gs when he lost to Rivera. The entire argument is semantics. In my eyes the injuries actually add to his greatness. They may have significantly contributed to a couple losses, but he has won three titles despite them. None of the guys you listed had anywhere near the health issues that Lee has had. It’s an apples to oranges debate.
 
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MSU158 said:
You argue with fans on here over Spencer's (lack of) greatness, while putting forward a slant for one of your own.
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When did I ever argue over Spencer's lack of greatness? I repeatedly stated there was no doubt he will go down as an all time great. My only caveat to that was that due to some of those losses keeps him out of the top 4. And my fandom didn't place any PSU wrestlers there either.

There is no doubt that Dake is an all time great USA Freestyler. Yep, bad luck being behind Burroughs. Nolf is having the same luck sitting behind Dake. Dake eventually beat Burroughs, and I wouldn't doubt Nolf will do the same to Dake. And Nolf was in deep on Dake's ankles at the end of the 2-1 match but couldn't finish before Dake clamped the chest wrap.

Maybe I'm bitter because Dake cost me my gold medal parlay in the Olympics. I had Dake, Taylor, and Steveson money line. Would have been a nice payday!
 
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82bordeaux said:
When did I ever argue over Spencer's lack of greatness? I repeatedly stated there was no doubt he will go down as an all time great. My only caveat to that was that due to some of those losses keeps him out of the top 4. And my fandom didn't place any PSU wrestlers there either.

There is no doubt that Dake is an all time great USA Freestyler. Yep, bad luck being behind Burroughs. Nolf is having the same luck sitting behind Dake. Dake eventually beat Burroughs, and I wouldn't doubt Nolf will do the same to Dake. And Nolf was in deep on Dake's ankles at the end of the 2-1 match but couldn't finish before Dake clamped the chest wrap.

Maybe I'm bitter because Dake cost me my gold medal parlay in the Olympics. I had Dake, Taylor, and Steveson money line. Would have been a nice payday!
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In regards to the 1st paragraph, I am prretty sure you were the one using Lee's 5 regular season losses to diminish his standing while actually arguing in favor of putting PSU 3xers like Nolf, Retherford and Ruth right there with Spencer. Were you not? To me that is about as cut and dry for what I said.

As far as Dake and Burroughs goes, age is NOT the deciding factor. Burroughs has actually looked as good as ever at 79kg. Dake was just close enough to JB that it was inevitably going to happen. In fact, if JB didn't benefit from being able to sit to the Finals so many times, I think Dake would have even beat him earlier.(not that JB didn't deserve to sit, because he most definitely did).

Finally, using almost scoring against Dake as an argument is about as bad as it gets, because Dake basically made his entire career off of guys getting to his legs/ankles before hitting chest wraps. Like I said, I really do like Nolf. I love the way he wrestles and even like the way he composes himself on and off the mat MORE! I truly want to see him succeed, but I just don't see it happening until Dake LETS it happen...or they end up in different weight classes!
 
MVPFAN said:
I'm sure Spencer is capable of winning but the "I really hope this happens" take is odd. I would just as soon see what might be the only shot for a 4 timer for Iowa any time soon have less of a hill to climb considering his medical situation.
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My opinion and observation are Spencer's knees are doing very well and don't seem to be an issue. His conditioning is coming along and will continue to get better. I do not see this being a problem, specially by the time we get to the dual or National Tournament. I don't see Fix as this huge threat to beat Spencer, in fact I believe Spencer puts it to him in convincingly. If I was Spencer I would take it as an insult that Fix feels he can move down and beat him. Seems like a lot of motivation to give Spencer Lee and we have all seen recently what a more motivated Spencer is capable of.
 
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Iowabandwagon said:
I think he was as skilled and dake was a matchup problem. Just like I think dake was as good as Burroughs except his first go when he was still wet behind the ears. And the qualifying matches hold weight in my book no matter what burroughs says. Just my opinion.
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Dake was a match up problem for everyone including taylor, I would still give an edge to JB in his prime in Freestyle.
 
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mcpat said:
Nolf actually did win a title on a torn ACL,
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I know he had a knee injury, but I don't think it was torn. Or at least not to the severity that Spencer Lee has dealt with.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

apnews.com

Penn State's Nolf avoids surgery, will miss a month

Penn State wrestling coach Cael Sanderson's said on his weekly radio show Monday that junior Jason Nolf won't need surgery on his injured right knee. Nolf injured the knee on Sunday in a...
apnews.com apnews.com
 
GlenHawk said:
This isn't true. If I remember correctly, Nolf suffered an LCL injury and had six weeks to heal before NCAAs.

While still very impressive, it's not even close to the same as competing without your ACLs.

“Really, it’s not as bad as we feared.”

Those words from Penn State wrestling coach Cael Sanderson, in regards to a knee injury suffered Sunday by returning national champion Jason Nolf, were music to the ears of Penn State wrestling fans.

www.blackshoediaries.com

Nolf Aiming For Postseason Return

Jason Nolf’s leg appears to be still attached to his body. So, now what?
www.blackshoediaries.com www.blackshoediaries.com
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It was one of the CL’s. :)

Appreciate the correction. (Being serious.)
 
Exo said:
Dake will retire before Jason Nolf beats him out of a world team.
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I can understand that opinion. I don’t agree, but I understand it.

Dake will be 32 next month; Nolf will be 27 later this month. It may take a couple or a few more years, but I think Nolf will beat him. I’d encourage you to watch those last two matches they wrestled if you haven’t. Dake didn’t deliberately get taken down.
 
T8KUDWN said:
My opinion and observation are Spencer's knees are doing very well and don't seem to be an issue. His conditioning is coming along and will continue to get better. I do not see this being a problem, specially by the time we get to the dual or National Tournament. I don't see Fix as this huge threat to beat Spencer, in fact I believe Spencer puts it to him in convincingly. If I was Spencer I would take it as an insult that Fix feels he can move down and beat him. Seems like a lot of motivation to give Spencer Lee and we have all seen recently what a more motivated Spencer is capable of.
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He looks pretty shaky with his leg movement and ability to do decisive and explosive movements.
 
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MVPFAN said:
He looks pretty shaky with his leg movement and ability to do decisive and explosive movements.
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I would be in the middle of you and T8KUDWN on his knees. It seems to me that he had good range of motion in both. They looked stable but I feel he may not have full strength back in his legs yet.

I have not seen any situations in his matches where I was like "oh crap." This seems to be a good sign in my opinion. Also a good sign was him coming off/out from bottom when he had to. He looked to have no issues there and that for me was important to see!
 
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GlenHawk said:
This isn't true. If I remember correctly, Nolf suffered an LCL injury and had six weeks to heal before NCAAs.

While still very impressive, it's not even close to the same as competing without your ACLs.

“Really, it’s not as bad as we feared.”

Those words from Penn State wrestling coach Cael Sanderson, in regards to a knee injury suffered Sunday by returning national champion Jason Nolf, were music to the ears of Penn State wrestling fans.

www.blackshoediaries.com

Nolf Aiming For Postseason Return

Jason Nolf’s leg appears to be still attached to his body. So, now what?
www.blackshoediaries.com www.blackshoediaries.com
Click to expand...
Yup-What happened to Nolf is the same torque that happened to DSJ his SO year and what happened to Kemerer at Edinboro. Not close to an ACL recovery
 
PAHURDLER said:
Phrasing!
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The Fresh Prince Of Bel Air Lol GIF by HBO Max
 
Grip220 said:
p4p, yes!
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I think they’re about even. Slight edge to DT. He has beaten the tough hombre yaz more often than not. If we go by credentials these days…Olympic champ is hard to beat. If/when dake gets it done against the Russian on the big stage I’ll reassess. Dake slight edge in college, dt now IMO. I think they’re very close and always have been but that’s me.
 
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