How do you explain tOSU then? If tOSU has a similar recruiting arc as PSU as shown in the 2018 Flo recruiting rankings, then how can tOSU do it honestly but PSU cannot? I do NOT want this to become argumentative. I just want to walk through the mental aspects of the cheating claim and see if it still has a fishy smell on the other side.
Interesting Article on Nittany Lion Wrestling Club
- Thread starter Novakht
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I think a lot boils down to in state talent, not a coincidence these two have been on top.
Or it is just small enough, & with no real news coverage, and a non revenue sport that creates no money for the NCAA, the schools themselves or agents and it all slips under the radar??
Do you really see the FBI getting involved in one school doing something like this when they have fish to fry like Addidas and college basketball programs like Arizona and Louisville?
That's the most obvious answer to me. Yes, they both get out-of-state kids, but the backbone of both programs are local talent, just like Iowa from the 70's to the 90's. Many of these kids have grown up wanting to wear those singlets, just like many did Iowa's singlet 20 years ago. Kids that already have the mental image of wrestling for a team take pay cuts to live the dream. I honestly believe it can be as simple as that. That isn't the only reason certainly, but I don't believe anything dishonest is going on at either program. Both schools committed substantial resources to wrestling about 10 years ago in facilities and coaching, and we see the results. The University of Iowa has decided to enter that arms race, so I would expect your recruiting to follow. No magic. Just commitment and money.
And I don’t think Novak made this thread for us to make excuses, this is to get our collective arses up and get after it. I’m in for 25 a month! Let’s get back on top bitches! I don’t like that PSU could make their own “its ok, we hate you too” shirts.. That’s our thing!!!!
Totally get it and I don't want it to go that way either.
At one point last year, PSU's starting lineup included 9/10 #1 weight level guys coming out of high school. Even Gable, at his best, never came close to matching that.
As good as tOSU has done at recruiting, they still had holes/surprise recruits (Moore 97).
Just know that if wrestling were a popular sport, this type of $$$ situation would get talked about on radio talk shows and on ESPN...especially given the timeline. In 2014, they were given the bulk of their money. Starting with the 2016 class, they seem to be bringing in boatloads of talent plus being able to apparently afford to hire Mark Hall's Dad...correct me if I'm wrong on that because I saw that I don't really know for sure. The college team is paired with the Pro team (NLWC) that is the spending equivalent of the Yankees, Red Sox, and the Cubs all rolled into one compared to the Kansas City Royals (Iowa). Our media are a bunch of fanboys (for lack of a better term) who care more about protecting the sport than adversarial reporting. I am on board with that myself lol as I too, am a fanboy...considering wrestling's precarious position in the sports world. ESPN for instance, seems to want to tear down the sports it covers.
For all of its success...Penn State is an enigma. There have not been very many inside looks at the program or its wrestlers. For all the great guys that have come through, only one has received the Flo treatment IIRC...Mylo Pony (DT)
which is odd because one would think a little sunshine on Jason Nolf, Zain, Bo Nickal, Cael etc would only help distance their recruiting advantage.Anyhoo...I have a pro Iowa slant. No denying that. But as I have told many of PSU fans, I am also a wrestling fan. I know it rings false with many of PSU fans but I sincerely hope they are not cheating. If they aren't, others need to be copying/pasting to their programs because its not getting much closer.
Very fair Chief. I'm also glad to find out who/what Mylo Pony was. lol.Totally get it and I don't want it to go that way either.
At one point last year, PSU's starting lineup included 9/10 #1 weight level guys coming out of high school. Even Gable, at his best, never came close to matching that.
As good as tOSU has done at recruiting, they still had holes/surprise recruits (Moore 97).
Just know that if wrestling were a popular sport, this type of $$$ situation would get talked about on radio talk shows and on ESPN...especially given the timeline. In 2014, they were given the bulk of their money. Starting with the 2016 class, they seem to be bringing in boatloads of talent plus being able to apparently afford to hire Mark Hall's Dad...correct me if I'm wrong on that because I saw that I don't really know for sure. The college team is paired with the Pro team (NLWC) that is the spending equivalent of the Yankees, Red Sox, and the Cubs all rolled into one compared to the Kansas City Royals (Iowa). Our media are a bunch of fanboys (for lack of a better term) who care more about protecting the sport than adversarial reporting. I am on board with that myself lol as I too, am a fanboy...considering wrestling's precarious position in the sports world. ESPN for instance, seems to want to tear down the sports it covers.
For all of its success...Penn State is an enigma. There have not been very many inside looks at the program or its wrestlers. For all the great guys that have come through, only one has received the Flo treatment IIRC...Mylo Pony (DT)
Anyhoo...I have a pro Iowa slant. No denying that. But as I have told many of PSU fans, I am also a wrestling fan. I know it rings false with many of PSU fans but I sincerely hope they are not cheating. If they aren't, others need to be copying/pasting to their programs because its not getting much closer.
As for the NLWC, I believe the advantage they provide is that those who come to PSU enjoy a better chance of joining the NLWC and the benefits they provide financially after college. I don't believe any quid pro quo is going on, but a simple statement of fact that if you want to be a part of the best Club (NLWC), you should strongly consider apprenticing here (PSU).
If you notice, Cael recruits top kids who have strong aspirations beyond college folkstyle, while living the "lifestyle". I think that's his hook. Goal oriented kids who have the drive and determination to succeed at the highest level of the sport. That eliminates many, but not all, of the bad actors, burnout cases, and those more easily distracted. Less wasted scholly money. I do not agree whatsoever with those who say that Cael is lucky in his recruiting. He is getting exactly the type of kid he wants for his program and doesn't make many exceptions.
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Only one I can think of that he "missed" on would be Gulibon...and he still AA'd.
I'm still confused as to why anyone is upset with the talent PSU gets. Iowa has the name as well and it shows that we sucked at recruiting before Morningstar because he is good with people. Most of these kids were super young when Cael was dominating the sport on the mat and went on to win a gold medal. You can't tell me that doesn't have anything to do with it. If Iowa can produce a product just like that(hopefully Lee) our recruiting would be the same way. The face of the brand is a huge factor in all decisions shady or not.
He missed on the Altons for the most part (1 AA between them), but there were a ton of injuries with those two. Can't think of any others.
When I say lucky, I mean he has not had kids get hurt or have a change of heart. I think he has an uncanny knack for sifting through the kids and knowing who will be a good fit and who will flourish in his program. He does not seem to make many mistakes. That is the skill part.
I would say having Suriano leave is bad luck and that is the only case of it I can think of for Cael. Cael does seem to have a plan and he seems to see very clearly what needs to be done. That vision is hard to quantify, but the dividends seem apparent.
Cael is recruiting and landing the same wrestlers everyone else is after.
Don't forget Andrew Long.
I think the skill part is getting kids largely from the top ten skill pile. Sure, every once in awhile you might have a miss or someone who doesn't live up to expectations but those are few and far between in a good program surrounded by other top ten kids. This is Cael's strength and it always has been. Plus, I think he looks at athlete's first, wrestler second. A long body type with innate skills you can't teach.
If we had 8 or 9 Spencer Lees, Marinellis, and Kemdawgs, the world would be a lot sunnier here in IC.
I don't know anything from anything but let's run with your premise. An assistant coach takes a kid out to dinner or pulls him into a room on the guise of watching match video...talk goes to money:
Coach: Mike Spencer, we really want you to come to our school. As you know, we are the best in the nation right now. To stay that way, we sometimes ask our wrestler's to temporarily sacrifice for the good of the team. Look at Joe Penny...two time NCAA champ. You know how much schollie money he is getting?
Mike: How much coach?
Coach: 20% Mike. 20%. Why? You don't really think all of our guys have rich uncles, right? Haha...internet joke, sorry. It's because he believes in us and we believe in him. He knows that if he helps the team now, we will take care of him in the future. You know how much Mylo Pony, our stud 86kg made last year in our club? $75,000 plus bonuses to help <ahem> cost of living expenses that college life can bring <big wink>. That's not counting his endorsement deals and camps. Hell, Rico Skinflootus made $50K and he only hit one or two tourneys while working in his financial job. We at PTU always take care of our family.
Mike: So does that mean you will help pay off any student loans?
Coach: <holds up hand> Lets make it very clear that it would be an NCAA violation if I were to offer you future payment for signing on with us
Obviously, I am having f** with this. However, a variation of that type of conversation is happening on college campuses all around the country in some sports. I don't know why we think wrestling would be immune. If "Mike Spencer" chose another, rival school and came out and repeated this conversation, he would get skinned alive. "No proof," "sour grapes," "his word against ours"...insert opinions from PTU fanbase and most in the wrestling community.
As fans, we have a vested interest in not schools cheating...especially the big ones with RTCs. If an Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OSU were caught using the RTC as an IOU, it would be very bad for all of our schools and potentially impact USA wrestling as well. But that's what we are doing...essentially housing the pro team with the amateur team (with the same coaching staffs) and pretending "never the twain shall meet." Let's hope it isn't.
Doesn't this all boil down to "having a better-funded RTC" - which is well within the rules?
Would it be "cheating" if this conversation didn't happen - if all they said was, "We are offering you a X% scholarship and we are able to support Y number of athletes post graduation"?
This is the system. Many programs have RTCs. Are we saying the same (or at least very similar) discussions aren't taking place at other schools? I would think they are - just not as often because those schools don't have the funding to support the same number of athletes.
It really seems like the allegation of "cheating" (or whatever word you want to use) comes down to one school being able to support more athletes post-grad than other schools.
Other than either capping or eliminating the RTC, how would you level the playing field?
Thanks for the discussion it helps to understand for a casual wrestling fan. From an outsider, it appears what has happened over the last decade:
- OSU and PSU started to give a crap about wrestling and invest in facilities and coaches to match the interest of top-level talent being generated in each of those states
- PSU opened the bank for its wrestling club and saw it as a long-term competitive advantage (which it is).
- Combination of local kids being able to be trained at the highest level and stay at home has tilted things in OSU/PSU's favor. And it's likely PSU doesn't have to mention a darn thing about future compensation. All they have to do is state the fact that they have the wrestling club with the biggest level of support. The athletes can figure out the rest.
Just looks like PSU is leveraging an advantage it has. I can't imagine they would be as dumb as to have the quid-pro-quo going on.
NLWC is the club with the best chance of employing a wrestler at the end of a college career BUT it is the not the best club.
Cael recruits goal oriented kids... yes, they all do.
I agree with what you are saying. But Capping it will never happen, it's just part of the game. I hate to say it.
With that said, I have no idea if anything past aiding in post grad wrestling is happening. If that's all that is happening, then I think most people on this board would say, "it sucks they have more funding than we have, but that's the game and let's go out and get more $". But IF, and I say if, that big pile of money is being used for other things than just sending a kid to Russia to compete, or for a RTC coach, then all of a sudden it's a different level of unfair
Now with that said, if we assume the PSU and Iowa RTC monies are drawing a simple 5% then the PSU Fund will draw $300k in interest each year and the Iowa fund will draw $45k. That is a HUGE difference in money and allows opportunities for many different ways of spending. If Iowa were to spend at the PSU rate of $300k a year, our fund would be gone in less than 4 years, while the PSU fund would still have its current $6million(and still drawing $300k a year)
Apples and oranges. Not unfair. Just different.
FBI involved? No, I doubt they are even doing anything outside of the rules. There is nothing to get involved over. That's why I'm tired of the endless posts about stuff going on at PSU. If there was something, it would be addressed already, but there isn't. Having greater resources isn't cheating. If it was hawks would go down too, we have more than everyone but PSU.
As to your first comment, I said that from Cael's POV. Everybody believes they have the best clubs, and say the things that show that. Just like every other product marketed. Some promote quality. Some value. Others low cost. Etc, etc.
As to your second comment, one could look at that from both sides. If everyone recruits the same kids but Cael gets the pick of the litter as I have been told several times in this thread, then one of two things is happening. One, Cael is cheating to get more than his fair share of top recruits; or two, Cael is not cheating to get more than his fair share, and the problem is with the other coaches not doing a good job recruiting. Those are the only two choices as I see it.
I think what is most likely, is that PSU is having discussion with their hammers once they become upper classmen about pulling their scholarships so that they can continue to recruit top P4P guys. Cael isn't dumb enough to mention that while he's recruiting high school kids.
IF they are cheating, it is the below scenario.
Cael to Zain, Nickal, Nolf, Hall, DT, Ruth etc. (As Jr./Sr.)
"Guys, I'm pulling your scholarship so that I can recruit Lee, Teasdale, RBY, etc. etc. BUT I will make it up to you with wrestling club money after you graduate. Trust me that it will be worth it."
IF they are cheating, it is the below scenario.
Cael to Zain, Nickal, Nolf, Hall, DT, Ruth etc. (As Jr./Sr.)
"Guys, I'm pulling your scholarship so that I can recruit Lee, Teasdale, RBY, etc. etc. BUT I will make it up to you with wrestling club money after you graduate. Trust me that it will be worth it."
That's not likely at all. If Cael were to do that, it would show up when he submits the scholly list to the Asst AD over wrestling. I think they'd notice (and so would the NCAA oversight person) if scholarship money was top heavy on underclassmen, when the opposite is usually true in wrestling. Big red flag that even the blind could identify.
If Cael isn't doing that, I really don't understand how Teske was reportedly offered a full ride.
My sense is that Cael is unable to say ‘full’ and ‘ride’ in the same sentence.
Ol' Scumbag Bael!
Remember, Lance Armstrong won 7 titles too!
Remember, Lance Armstrong won 7 titles too!
So your saying that being able to have more post grad wrestlers making more money than at other RTC's is not an unfair advantage in recruiting? It might not be cheating but it is definitely not fair play.
And we have the HWC, able to have more post grad wrestlers than every other school but one. Do you really want to make that the basis of a fairness complaint?
Your right, it shouldn't have an affect on any college program. That's my point.
Of course the FBI isnt involved, even if they were cheating, cause wrestling is an under the radar no revenue sport, with essentially zero agents. And that is my point, if PSU were bending the rules or cheating, I doubt too much would be done about it, because of the sport we are talking about.
With that said, people on this board continue to dismiss other's theories on if PSU is cheating or how they might be cheating, but then have no proof that they arent(just like guys have no real proof that they are). Even in your post you say, "I doubt they are doing anything outside of the rules".
Again, I'm not saying they are, but I am saying that if they were, maybe no one would care. Cael and PSU are a good story. Hate to say it but its true.
Anyone can find a single year when some school pulls in a good number of elite guys.
tOSU has a great 2018 class, as did PSU.
2017 saw Iowa and Cornell get great classes, as did PSU.
2016 saw NC St grab some top tier talent, as did PSU.
2015 saw PSU slow a bit, but still got a top 5 guy in Joseph.
2014 saw PSU far outdistanced everyone else.
No the issue isn't, 'are there some years when another school matches or tops PSU?' The issue is, how is PSU able to far outdistance everyone in getting top 10 or top 15 guys over an extended period, when supposedly there is a 9.9 scholly limit?
It clearly doesn't seem like a level playing field, and folks are wondering how it's done. The answer may lie in accounting magic, with shifting money from the well endowed NLWC. So, maybe it's a grey area, or maybe it's just cheating, figuring, the ncaa won't bother with investigation of wrestling funding. I don't pretend to know, but the staggering sustained recruiting success by Cael since arriving at PSU is hard to explain.
Or, he’s just doing a better job with the limitations the sport has to deal with. Isn’t that the alternative explanation? Isn’t that the more likely answer than he cheats? It’s easy to say he cheats, but it’s been at least five years and no one has dropped a dime on him. Why? You don’t think Suriano’s dad wouldn’t in a nanosecond with the bad blood? The easier answer is Cael does it better.
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Lol and who is this NCAA oversight person?
You're aware NCAA compliance is done by each school's own compliance department right? There is no auditing/oversight going on by the NCAA itself.
Bit of a conflict of interest. And ya know, there is no history at all of NCAA athletic recruiting cheating so it makes perfect sense to leave the responsibility on each school to self report recruiting violations.
Wonder why all of those bb programs being investigated by the FBI didn't catch anything with their compliance departments.
Not saying, PSU is cheating, but using their compliance department as proof that things are above board is a joke.
