Why is anyone worried about next year where we still have half a season left??
Iowa can beat Penn State next year! Return to Dominance for Iowa!
- Thread starter Wrestlerneverdiesasacatfan
- Start date
Every so often a guy exceeds expectations. Cassar may be one of those guys, but to date he has no AA finish. Pointing out an exception doesn't make the basic point invalid.
Besides, if Cassar falters, Cael can always fall back on yet another top 10 p4p blue chip guy in Nevills, who is an AA.
How is Teske struggling early in his career?
I would say getting tech'd by Lock Haven's Werner qualifies as struggling. The "tough and physical PA kid" (Werner) never won state, is not ranked. I don't think he was ranked top 100 p4p in HS. Teske did beat Laney 4-3. OK...Laney is unranked.
Hard to predict the future, but I'd be surprised if Cael sticks with "developing" Teske. He's already got a top recruit in Howard now. Cael wisely goes for thoroughbred recruits, and while not saying he's cheating, offering scholarships at PSU never seems to be an issue. Many folks wonder how that is done.
No fail FT, just facts.
Rasheed and Molinaro were both ranked in top 50 p4p, so not exactly chopped liver.
Cassar and Rasheed to date, have a single AA finish (7th place by Rasheed, none by Cassar).
Brown is a relative rarity, ranked lower coming out of HS, but who did develop into an elite wrestler.
Conaway and English...*yawn*.... you've really tried to milk that too often FT. So English becomes an AA for the first time in 6 years at PSU, getting 7th place. Conaway got an 8th place and 6th place finish.
That's about it. FT has his list of the rare overachiever at PSU, spanning nearly a decade, to tout Cael's magic. You conveniently ignore several much higher rated recruits who fell short of expectations... D Alton, A Alton, Gulibon.
Some guys will overachieve and others underachieve. Every team has them. BFD.
The bigger point is, PSU really doesn't depend on developing lower ranked guys. They don't need to. Most of their lineup consists of extremely highly ranked recruits. No other school has matched the recruits over the extended period since Cael arrived.
Intermat listed their final best at each weight in 2011:
103 Tomasello
112 Ashnault
119 Gulibon
125 Megaludis
130 Thielke
135 H Stieber
140 Tsirtsis
145 Hodgkins
152 McCauley
160 Hammond
171 Storley
189 McIntosh (wrestler of the year)
215 Hall
285 Longendyke
PSU ended up with 3 of those top tier guys.
By contrast, in 2011, Iowa got none. They did recruit #55 Klaprodt, #108 Grothus, and #136 Rhoades.
That's the way things have gone for many years now. tOSU has picked up in the last few years, and Iowa has managed to get a few top 10. But PSU led everybody in getting top tier recruits for many years.
Cassar was 45-0 as a senior. Was the 2015 Jr National Champion, and made the Jr World team. I understand he is low ranked compared to the normal slush fund baby, but he isn't some project to be used as a sign of Carla's development.
Really? How high up the board was Rasheed?
Cassar will be lucky to AA?
Christ. Your ability to look at a wrestler be come up with an accurate assessment is non existent.
Even if the point that Kemmer and Marinilli are top end is conceded, when doing a 2020 PSU vs Iowa comparison PSU at 165 and 174 > Iowa at 165 and 174.
The idea Iiwa may be the team to beat in 2020 is outside of fandom just silly.
125 Iowa >>> PSU
133 PSU > Iowa
141 PSU >> Iowa
149 Iowa > PSU
157 PSU > Iowa
165 PSU > Iowa
174 PSU > Iowa
184 PSU > Iowa
197 PSU = Iowa
Hwt PSU > Iowa
It still isn't going to be close.
Recognizing talent, successfully recruiting said talent and then developing that talent is pretty much the definition of a successful coach.
Seems to me you just acknowledged the Sanderson brothers and staff are a vastly superior coaching staff compared to the Brands brothers and staff. Something you and I can agree on.
So let me get this straight your going to recruit the #1's, get the #1's an expect them to get better.
Doesnt get better than #1 no matter who your coach is.
You know half the stuff we post is sarcastic right? Jeebus
I'm going to wait to make calls on who's better at each weight in 2020 until I see more college mat time from some of this year's and next year's freshmen, not to mention other guys wrestling a particular weight for the first time this year or next.
Assuming the playing field is level, I completely agree with your first sentence. Whether the field is level is debatable, and questioned by many. A whole topic in itself.
Your second sentence I would change. I would say Sanderson bros and staff are vastly superior to not just Brands, but EVERYONE else regarding bringing in elite recruits.
If one starts out far ahead of everyone else, then it becomes harder to measure "developing talent." Sanderson didn't seem to have the development magic at ISU that you and other PSU fans seem to want to attribute to him now. The biggest difference between his ISU and PSU eras were the quality of recruits.
Well you my man are the reason why we cannot have half way decent conversations with psu guys.
You clearly just want to spew crap so ignore you go
I'm puzzled.... why did you predict this 2020 outcome a moment before:
<<125 Iowa >>> PSU>>
Do you not believe your own words that the "vastly superior" Cael can work his magic, and develop Teske so he overtakes Spencer?
There is no debate about a level recruiting playing field.
Recognizing talent, recruiting talent and developing that talent is what makes a hood college coach. It makes no difference if it is wrestling, basketball, women's basketball, women's volleyball, football, baseball or whatever. Whether it is Cael, Krzyzewski, Geno, Russ Rose, Saban, Bertman or whomever. They all were/are great at recognizing talent, successfully recruiting that talent, developing that talent and finally winning much more often than their peers with that talent.
At this point in time there isn't any debate as to who is the best college wrestling coaching staff.
Using a really stupid example in an effort to make a point is more pathetic than funny.
I'll take your non answer as an acknowledgement that Cael won't be able to sprinkle his development magic and turn Teske into someone who beats Lee.
Guess the fairy dust only works on guys who are already top 10 and preferably Jr World gold medalists. Got it.
Why didn't Brands and the best lightweight room just develop Perez-Perez into someone who beats Lee? Why didn't they just develop Glynn,Happel,Turk instead of bringing in JRent and Desanto?
What are PSU fans feelings on Paterno? Is there still a statue? I honestly don' know. I don't care enough to google it and why would I with so many PSU fans here to answer it. Also, good job by you guys ignoring the truth regarding Cassar not being a project.
Ah yes, the inevitable Rossel backtrack. You said "In weights that PSU doesn't get an elite recruit they struggle". I completely and utterly refuted that statement with a list of wrestlers that were not elite recruits, some not even ranked coming out of high school, that are having or had really good to great careers. That's it, end of discussion, your lose, thanks for playing.
11 current Hawks were ranked higher than Rasheed coming out of high school (Lee, DeSanto, Happel, Murin, Renteria, Young, Bull, Kemerer,
Warner, Stoll, and Cassiopi). Fair to say Iowa has a roster full of “very high recruits”?
The Sanderson brothers have had two guys ranked outside the top 50 who went on to win national titles (Molinaro and Brown)
The Brands brothers have had zero.
I guess every so often happens more often in some places than others.
This remains a pretty silly debate. Iowa, tOSU, OSU, ASU and PSU have all had #1 recruiting classes during the past decade. The top three have had several.
On paper tOSU had the strongest overall team last year with studs at all 10 weights, the same for OSU the year prior.
Cael has 7 of the last 8 and no amount of coach vs recruit debate can counter that fact. It's pretty hard to debate the lone measuring stick that is objective.
Truith be told IMO tOSU will be preseason #1 next year, not Iowa or PSU. tOSU, Mich, Iowa, OSU, PSU will all be close to parity. 2020 will be far from a slam dunk for any team, and I do not think PSU will be the favorite.
Cassar and Shak getting 6th years will be significant for PSU but that is far from a done deal. All of the top team's will be loaded for the next several years. I don't think you see any one team getting more than 110-120 points starting in 2020.
Zain, Nolf and Nickal were generational kids that aren't easily replaced. Yeah I know same was said of Ruth and Taylor. Nonetheless that's 70+ tourney points. Only Brooks looks like the next "sure" thing, there are other studs on the way but with most we'll have to wait and see.
If Cassar & Shak don't get 6th years I think there is a 50/50 shot that Cael conducts a mass redshirt next year anyway. Some Oly Hall, VJ, some standard RBY, Nick Lee, Beard, Brooks... Crazy, maybe, but we have seen it before in 2015.
Cael probably could have won another NC in 2015 without those shirts, but he plans long term. If it was all about him he would have proiritized keeping the NC streak alive. If he shirts several vets in 2020, watch out for 2021-24.
On paper tOSU had the strongest overall team last year with studs at all 10 weights, the same for OSU the year prior.
Cael has 7 of the last 8 and no amount of coach vs recruit debate can counter that fact. It's pretty hard to debate the lone measuring stick that is objective.
Truith be told IMO tOSU will be preseason #1 next year, not Iowa or PSU. tOSU, Mich, Iowa, OSU, PSU will all be close to parity. 2020 will be far from a slam dunk for any team, and I do not think PSU will be the favorite.
Cassar and Shak getting 6th years will be significant for PSU but that is far from a done deal. All of the top team's will be loaded for the next several years. I don't think you see any one team getting more than 110-120 points starting in 2020.
Zain, Nolf and Nickal were generational kids that aren't easily replaced. Yeah I know same was said of Ruth and Taylor. Nonetheless that's 70+ tourney points. Only Brooks looks like the next "sure" thing, there are other studs on the way but with most we'll have to wait and see.
If Cassar & Shak don't get 6th years I think there is a 50/50 shot that Cael conducts a mass redshirt next year anyway. Some Oly Hall, VJ, some standard RBY, Nick Lee, Beard, Brooks... Crazy, maybe, but we have seen it before in 2015.
Cael probably could have won another NC in 2015 without those shirts, but he plans long term. If it was all about him he would have proiritized keeping the NC streak alive. If he shirts several vets in 2020, watch out for 2021-24.
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Northwestern can contend next year. Two ranked number one wrestlers ( Deakin and Rivera) Davison , Johnny Sebastian and Yahya Thomas can all AA. Plus you have Valdiviez and Jessen and Tyler Morland. Solid top five team next year
11 current Hawks were ranked higher than Rasheed coming out of high school (Lee, DeSanto, Happel, Murin, Renteria, Young, Bull, Kemerer,
Warner, Stoll, and Cassiopi). Fair to say Iowa has a roster full of “very high recruits”?
The Sanderson brothers have had two guys ranked outside the top 50 who went on to win national titles (Molinaro and Brown)
The Brands brothers have had zero.
I guess every so often happens more often in some places than others.
The Brands had two outside the top 100 that should have won - Montell Marion and Daniel Dennis. Hell, with a bogus locked hands call, either would have won.
You threw a couple outside the top 100 almosts to counter a couple top 50s that did. My response was within the discussion. Not sure why I needed to explain that to you.
Come on, catfan, please stay on topic. This os about Iowa and PSU, remember?
Well in all fairness Molinaro was I believe a 3 or 4 time AA and won one champion ship.. The year he won was the weakest weight in the tourney..He never had to beat a top seed to win it as they where all knocked off so luck can play a major part also..Don't belive me as Oliver vs Steibler Ramos vs Steibler and Marion vs Russell all won on questionable reffs calls. Tough dam sport need luck breaks etc even if u are good or great.
Molinaro was a 4x AA, 2x finalist, and 1x champ. He was the top seed the year he won it. But yes, some of the upper seeds did get upset before facing him those last two years.
4x AA. FR-seed 25 finish 8
SO-seed 5 finish 4 #1 Palmer beat him on way to finals
JR-seed 2 finish 2 #1 Caldwell lost and he lucked out and got #4 Dake
in finals
SR-seed 1 finish 1
A ray of insight has entered your brain. That's kind of my whole point.
When a school starts out with an elite blue ribbon recruit, it may be hard for a less talented wrestler to beat him, even with great coaching. That's why recruiting is so important. In that regard Cael typically starts out on 3rd base.
You utterly refuted? Lol! You point out a few exceptions where a lower ranked HS recruit did well over Cael's nearly decade career at PSU. You can find examples of that at most every school. Burroughs came from the 8th decile to Nebraska. All credit goes to Coach Manning right?
In your mind, Cael wins not because he gets so many more top 10 recruits than everyone else, he wins because he takes low ranked unheralded recruits like English, and turns him into a 7th place finisher in his 6th year. Let's focus on that, and ignore the contributions of Taylor, Ruth, Retherford, Nolf, Nickal, Joseph, Hall, etc. etc.
It's fair to say Iowa now has some high level recruits. Is it also fair to say that PSU has had far more high level recruits than Iowa and everyone else, over the past decade?
