Iowa Wrestling is Dead

[Pennstate1985]

You want us to go through 5 more years of this?!? Holy smokes. Eat the contract. Time to move on. This ain’t getting it done. We’ve been patient for 13 years, nearly 14. Don’t you reckon it’s about time Laban gives us our Rachel?

I hear you. I really do. I have wrestled with this same issue in my business career several times. I have come to the conclusion that unless it is completely broken, then you work toward the desired solution until it is the right time for implementation. The wait for change can be painful at this stage. Looking at this from a business perspective, and collegiate wrestling at this level IS a business, I believe Iowa's best outcome is to immerse an assistant into the program until he is ready to take over. It could be 3 years. It could be 5. If I am the AD, i would be hard pressed today to find anyone better to take over the Iowa program than Tom. If I was an Iowa fan, I would want to make a change too, but since I am not, my business mind takes over and I see the reality that it isn't a good decision to replace Tom in the near term. It just isn't. Iowa would take a step back from its current level if you made such a rapid change to an unknown commodity. Again, just my two pennies.

 

[The cow catcher]

I did some quick research on top 15 recruits landed between PSU & Iowa since the ‘14 recruiting class through the ‘22 class. and the amount of individual titles won by those specific wrestlers in the years that they wrestled varsity (throwing out injuries/not making the lineup, etc).
Total top 15 recruits-
Iowa- 9
PSU-16
Potential individual titles won
Iowa- 3 out of a possible 27 (11%)
PSU- 17 out of a possible 41 (41%)

This^ is by far the largest issue at hand. If you’re not winning titles with your best guys, you’re subsequently not going to routinely land the best guys. The excuse that they get all the recruits is the reason they win is a way to deflect the bigger problem at hand.

It’s been hit on repeatedly above, but there has to be a change in the way we train/practice/etc. there’s no way to try and argue facts at this point. A shake up of assistants would seem to be the logical place to start.

 

[Inthecircle]

No, I wouldn’t be shocked if they win titles. My point was that, on the whole, I didn’t think our guys wrestled bad last night compared to their typical performances aside from Woods and Franek, so I’m not sure we can put much blame on a sickness going around. Did we expect to perform much better if there wasn’t a sickness going around last night?

I don’t think Franek and Caliendo would have won, Woods might have? Messenbrink/Caliendo was a high paced match in the first period and Caliendo faded big time. I am not blaming our performance on the illness, My thoughts are we may have been more competitive and not taken such a beating.

 

[Inthecircle]

I did some quick research on top 15 recruits landed between PSU & Iowa since the ‘14 recruiting class through the ‘22 class. and the amount of individual titles won by those specific wrestlers in the years that they wrestled varsity (throwing out injuries/not making the lineup, etc).
Total top 15 recruits-
Iowa- 9
PSU-16
Potential individual titles won
Iowa- 3 out of a possible 27 (11%)
PSU- 17 out of a possible 41 (41%)

This^ is by far the largest issue at hand. If you’re not winning titles with your best guys, you’re subsequently not going to routinely land the best guys. The excuse that they get all the recruits is the reason they win is a way to deflect the bigger problem at hand.

It’s been hit on repeatedly above, but there has to be a change in the way we train/practice/etc. there’s no way to try and argue facts at this point. A shake up of assistants would seem to be the logical place to start.

Now do the research and see where we rank against everyone else.

 

[OldestandGreatest]

Now do the research and see where we rank against everyone else.

Not exactly what you are asking for but some NCAA stats showing overall performance taken from BWI.

 

[grapplefann]

I think it's been proven that "working harder" is not the answer.

The Gable era mentality of out-working everyone is dead. We haven't adapted from that and it's a big part of our problems.

That's not what I meant. I'm sure that the Hawk wrestling team works plenty hard. I'm talking (mostly) about the fans, the staff, and the administration. You are right: our wrestlers can no longer just outwork everyone else. Those days are long over.

 

[dhm47]

I am not sure I follow? (It was neither one, so it’s down to 8). I didn’t expect Franek and Caliendo to get dominated like they did. Woods was in it until the end. If you’re still reeling from illness or injury, you are affected. It’s clear we were not up to the task in those three bouts. If we see those matches again at Big Tens, and the performance is the same, I’ll be disappointed.
Will you be shocked if Bartlett, Haines and Messenbrink win titles?

No, but grip would. Just poking you man, not serious.

 

[dhm47]

Not exactly what you are asking for but some NCAA stats showing overall performance taken from BWI.

View embedded media

WOW, great job.

 

[OldestandGreatest]

WOW, great job.

Wasnt me. I borrowed it from a thread over on BWI. I believe Cali_Nittany did the work.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

OP is correct. Iowa is officially a women's basketball school (at least for the next couple of months 😊).

Wanna bet?

Oh wait.

Never mind.

 

[dhm47]

Wasnt me. I borrowed it from a thread over on BWI. I believe Cali_Nittany did the work.

Well in that case, good job on figuring out how to upload to this site. I had 2 senior associates and a chief of staff that protected me from learning anything about technology, yikes!!!!

 

[AEG82]

I did some quick research on top 15 recruits landed between PSU & Iowa since the ‘14 recruiting class through the ‘22 class. and the amount of individual titles won by those specific wrestlers in the years that they wrestled varsity (throwing out injuries/not making the lineup, etc).
Total top 15 recruits-
Iowa- 9
PSU-16
Potential individual titles won
Iowa- 3 out of a possible 27 (11%)
PSU- 17 out of a possible 41 (41%)

This^ is by far the largest issue at hand. If you’re not winning titles with your best guys, you’re subsequently not going to routinely land the best guys. The excuse that they get all the recruits is the reason they win is a way to deflect the bigger problem at hand.

It’s been hit on repeatedly above, but there has to be a change in the way we train/practice/etc. there’s no way to try and argue facts at this point. A shake up of assistants would seem to be the logical place to start.

This is a strong correlation and a good post.

I don't believe Iowa wrestling is dead but we're losing ground obviously. PSU is such a mammoth now that it's just so hard to envision us catching up regardless. They have the best recruiting base in the country, the best coach, and the momentum to keep going forward. Their wrestlers as a whole, are quite frankly, far superior to ours outside of a select few names.

I just don't think Iowa will ever be as consistent in winning titles as they once were with PSU competing at such a high level. They have all the advantages. A coach of Cael's level is a great start to fight back as it's apparent that Brands can't compete at his level outside of PSU having a rare bad season.

 

[wahlberg]

I did some quick research on top 15 recruits landed between PSU & Iowa since the ‘14 recruiting class through the ‘22 class. and the amount of individual titles won by those specific wrestlers in the years that they wrestled varsity (throwing out injuries/not making the lineup, etc).
Total top 15 recruits-
Iowa- 9
PSU-16
Potential individual titles won
Iowa- 3 out of a possible 27 (11%)
PSU- 17 out of a possible 41 (41%)

This^ is by far the largest issue at hand. If you’re not winning titles with your best guys, you’re subsequently not going to routinely land the best guys. The excuse that they get all the recruits is the reason they win is a way to deflect the bigger problem at hand.

It’s been hit on repeatedly above, but there has to be a change in the way we train/practice/etc. there’s no way to try and argue facts at this point. A shake up of assistants would seem to be the logical place to start.

I’m completely with you until the last sentence, because assistants don’t determine the way the team practices and trains (at least, not at Iowa).

 

[JBJRFL]

Well in that case, good job on figuring out how to upload to this site. I had 2 senior associates and a chief of staff that protected me from learning anything about technology, yikes!!!!

Come on now, tell the truth. You've lived most of your life before there was technology.

 

[dhm47]

Come on now, tell the truth. You've lived most of your life before there was technology.

No question, however I was lucid enough to hire MBA's 40 years my junior to take care of technology while I ran the capital markets group, which was my generations expertise.

 

[Gusaford]

I hear you. I really do. I have wrestled with this same issue in my business career several times. I have come to the conclusion that unless it is completely broken, then you work toward the desired solution until it is the right time for implementation. The wait for change can be painful at this stage. Looking at this from a business perspective, and collegiate wrestling at this level IS a business, I believe Iowa's best outcome is to immerse an assistant into the program until he is ready to take over. It could be 3 years. It could be 5. If I am the AD, i would be hard pressed today to find anyone better to take over the Iowa program than Tom. If I was an Iowa fan, I would want to make a change too, but since I am not, my business mind takes over and I see the reality that it isn't a good decision to replace Tom in the near term. It just isn't. Iowa would take a step back from its current level if you made such a rapid change to an unknown commodity. Again, just my two pennies.

A lot of jargon, not a lot of critical bite.

 

[hawkeyealumni]

We have some weak assistants. Everyone touts Morningstars recruting, but look around the country at the stud underclassmen. We don’t have the horses, and we have uninspiring assistants.

 

[Sett1997]

I think you guys are being too hard on the team.

According to the Des Moines Register, Ayala and Rathjen dominated, with six matches to go Iowa was in striking distance with winnable matches left, and had one or two of the Iowa veterans wrestled better and had Gabe been in the lineup, the dual could have turned out differently.

If Iowa wrestling's veterans can bounce back, the Hawkeyes are capable of reaching goals

If Iowa wrestling's veterans can bounce back, they are still capable of success

www.desmoinesregister.com

They didn't mention any " illegal fists to the back" did they?

 

[dhm47]

They didn't mention any " illegal fists to the back" did they?

And Joe Biden is fit to be president

 

[PSU Mike]

Not exactly what you are asking for but some NCAA stats showing overall performance taken from BWI.

View embedded media

What’s not obvious, but amazing, is Penn State AAs were 55-23 in their last matches (odd placements - even placements), including 21-6 outside the finals. I didn’t dump all the numbers to calculate, but that has to be way higher than any other program, and it says something really compelling about the mental resolve and physical prep of the wrestlers.

 

[Fan In Black]

I still don't understand why they cant consistently recruit better. I'm not talking about PSU level. That's absurd at this point. But...PSU isn't signing 10 guys a year. They don't get every elite prospect every year. Iowa doesn't get one every year.

Why aren't any of them coming here? Every year on this board someone will start a recruiting thread. Listing all of the elite guys ( Top 10 guys) And every year a thread follows that they went to tOSU, Cornell, or wherever.

For a "blue blood" program they are THE most boring one to follow recruiting.

 

[MadTown Hawk]

I know people who spoke with Cael when he left ISU. One of the reasons he left was cause he knew Iowa would always be the big dog. PSU is the perfect spot.

Maybe. I don’t know. I heard that he felt it was necessary to be in the Big 10 to achieve what he wanted. (And he was probably right). The whole argument about him not being a good coach unless he was at PSU is silly to me. They don’t have an asterisk on all of Saban’s national titles saying “he didn’t do this at Michigan State”. Talented coaches and talented leaders go to programs or organizations where they can fulfill their vision. That is what he did. Now, if you want to argue he was disloyal to ISU and Bobby Douglas, I get that. But, his coaching legacy is not diminished by being at PSU.

 

[ichawks]

I still don't understand why they cant consistently recruit better. I'm not talking about PSU level. That's absurd at this point. But...PSU isn't signing 10 guys a year. They don't get every elite prospect every year. Iowa doesn't get one every year.

Why aren't any of them coming here? Every year on this board someone will start a recruiting thread. Listing all of the elite guys ( Top 10 guys) And every year a thread follows that they went to tOSU, Cornell, or wherever.

For a "blue blood" program they are THE most boring one to follow recruiting.

Yes, recruiting better would help but more importantly, these guys seem to “flat line” as they get older which tells me coaching is the bigger issue. I 100% believe Michael Kemerer would’ve won at least one NC at PSU. Ask yourself if you were a 17 year old coveted recruit who you’d be more impressed with. Cael, all day every day.

 

[Spaceman Spifff]

I did some quick research on top 15 recruits landed between PSU & Iowa since the ‘14 recruiting class through the ‘22 class. and the amount of individual titles won by those specific wrestlers in the years that they wrestled varsity (throwing out injuries/not making the lineup, etc).
Total top 15 recruits-
Iowa- 9
PSU-16
Potential individual titles won
Iowa- 3 out of a possible 27 (11%)
PSU- 17 out of a possible 41 (41%)

This^ is by far the largest issue at hand. If you’re not winning titles with your best guys, you’re subsequently not going to routinely land the best guys. The excuse that they get all the recruits is the reason they win is a way to deflect the bigger problem at hand.

It’s been hit on repeatedly above, but there has to be a change in the way we train/practice/etc. there’s no way to try and argue facts at this point. A shake up of assistants would seem to be the logical place to start.

"Top 15" seems arbitrary. I would guess a lot more of PSUs top 15 were top 10 or top 5 recruits. What are the stats if you calculate this for top 10 recruits, or Top 5 recruits?

 

[Fan In Black]

Yes, recruiting better would help but more importantly, these guys seem to “flat line” as they get older which tells me coaching is the bigger issue. I 100% believe Michael Kemerer would’ve won at least one NC at PSU. Ask yourself if you were a 17 year old coveted recruit who you’d be more impressed with. Cael, all day every day.

I'm not expecting them to compete with PSU. But PSU can't land all of the top guys every single year ( even tho it seems like they do haha) They lose elite recruits to other schools too.

 

[Fan In Black]

"Top 15" seems arbitrary. I would guess a lot more of PSUs top 15 were top 10 or top 5 recruits. What are the stats if you calculate this for top 10 recruits, or Top 5 recruits?

I would like to see this too. I'm not arguing anything. It's just interesting data. He did a good job of showing stats.

 

[turkEhawk]

Man brands should disinfect the room multiple times a day. Our room has more sicknesses than any room ive heard of.

Exactly. Quit trying to justify the crap performance with the flu. I’ll give you against Mich. but a week later? Tired of the excuses that Try to cover for the bad coaching and people getting butt hurt every time somebody makes a negative comment about the state of the program
I watched Iowa guys get physically beat up by PSU guys. Stop with the IOWA style crap. There is NO Iowa style any longer. Unless you’re talking about a shot that gets you a deep single which results in getting taken down

 

[herkyhawk00]

I like the Brands Brothers. I do think Morningstar and Telford need to be replaced, however.

 

[jayridescarbon]

I'm not expecting them to compete with PSU. But PSU can't land all of the top guys every single year ( even tho it seems like they do haha) They lose elite recruits to other schools too.

I think you need to stop thinking it’s just Cael and staff versus TnT and staff. Unfortunately for Iowa, I think there are multiple coaches that are currently more attractive to recruits than TnT.

 

[Trapper85]

A couple of things from last night. We got physically taken to the wood shed. PSU came out slapping and were heavy handed and then got to work. This team is a collection of physical specimen’s. I don’t know how they do it.
Technically they don’t allow shin whizers, they all scramble well and when they shoot their feet never stop until they get the TD or work into a stalemate.
They just physically manhandled us.

Agree. It may be easier to get the best of the best when you are at the top and everyone wants to go there, but Karl knows how to identify talent. It's not simply athleticism or body type (which are very important), but as or more important are guys who have the right 'brain wiring'. Instinctual chain wrestlers, ability to sense/feel your 'surroundings' and think 3 steps ahead, attitude/no fear, calm but fast/fluid thinking, can rapidly recalculate and not phased by any 'mishaps', etc. Training is important, but most of those things you can't train unless maybe you start at an early age.

 

[wahlberg]

Agree. It may be easier to get the best of the best when you are at the top and everyone wants to go there, but Karl knows how to identify talent. It's not simply athleticism or body type (which are very important), but as or more important are guys who have the right 'brain wiring'. Instinctual chain wrestlers, ability to sense/feel your 'surroundings' and think 3 steps ahead, attitude/no fear, calm but fast/fluid thinking, can rapidly recalculate and not phased by any 'mishaps', etc. Training is important, but most of those things you can't train unless maybe you start at an early age.

I disagree. You can train all of those things through play wrestling. I think it has plenty to do with training and Brands’ training process/structure actually works to weaken most of those traits (inadvertently I’m sure).

 

[mcpat]

Without naming names because the Big Board rankings are subscription only, I count twelve top-10 recruits for PSU and five top-10 recruits for Iowa between 2016 and 2022.

Some of these guys are obviously still wrestling and some are ranked at or near the top of their weight classes, so the story has yet to be told on their successes.

Thus far, PSU has 9 individual titles among its 12. Iowa has 3 among its 5.

4 of the 12 PSU guys have won a title. 1 of the 5 Iowa guys have won a title.

8 of the 12 PSU guys have had a top 3 placing. 2 of the 5 Iowa guys have had a top 3 placing.

Of the 4 PSU guys without a top 3 placing, two have had their career end. Subjectively, a 3rd looks like he has at least a decent shot at a high placing career. The 4th has been dealing with a lot of injuries.

Of the 3 Iowa guys without a top 3 placing, only one has had his career end. Subjectively, the other two are likely future AAs with a decent shot at a high placing.

Injuries have played a significant role for both teams for the few guys that did not reach their lofty expectations.

I think you can spin this any direction you want.

 

[Trapper85]

I disagree. You can train all of those things through play wrestling. I think it has plenty to do with training and Brands’ training process/structure actually works to weaken most of those traits (inadvertently I’m sure).

You can train *some* of what I listed if you start when they are 6 years old, way less likely to be effective when 18+. And some is just in your DNA...or not. But to be clear, I agree with your general 'training method matters' theme and have agreed with many of your posts - from the outside guessing in, changes are warranted. But know how to pick the ones that already have "it" and it will go far better. Wouldn't shock me to learn Kale has a neuropsych team evaluate potential recruit tape or have them take a 'psych test' first.

 

[MSU158]

Apples to Oranges. Nobody else has Iowa’s fan base, tradition, support, etc. Zalesky probably had the 2nd best results during his tenure too.

Zalesky’s nosedive his last 3 seasons is something Brands has never come remotely close to approaching. They lost 16 duals for God’s sake. On top of that, there was no team to compete with that was remotely the dynasty PSU is now. OkState had a run but part of that was because Mocco saw how bad it was under Zalesky and took off.

Look, I get some of your points. You want Iowa first no matter what. But, I am telling you flat out that NO coach is directly competing with what PSU is right now. You can try to cast all the blame on the Brands, but the truth is, what should actually be happening is putting all the credit to PSU and their staff.

PSU has created something completely unprecedented and, again, NO COACH was stopping that. If there was some proven Coach out there that every indication points to better production than Brands, I wouldn’t fight the change. However, putting all the blame on Brands and firing him just because you want to is not remotely the answer…

 

[blubberhawk]

Do you think Tom’s teams at VA Tech would have beaten Cael’s teams at Iowa State?

Virginia Tech has not had any program success under anyone. ISU has numerous nation titles, Even Jim Gibbons won a title at ISU.

 

[Fan In Black]

I think you need to stop thinking it’s just Cael and staff versus TnT and staff. Unfortunately for Iowa, I think there are multiple coaches that are currently more attractive to recruits than TnT.

I don't think that at all. That's why I said PSU can't get them all. Iowa loses them to a lot of schools. I agree with you.

 

[jmadden1998]

I grew up in Western Iowa and was a Hawk fan in all sports. After graduating high school, I went to the college at Nebraska. I was there from 1993-1998. Football team won 3 National titles in 4 years and Osborne hand picked Frank Solich to take over. They lost 4 games in 1998 but then rebounded to win the Big 12 in 1999 going 12-1. Had good season in 2000 and the somehow snuck in the National Title game in 2001 after getting blasted by Colorado and Miami put a beat down on them in the Championship Game. They went 7-7 in 2002 and rebounded to go 10-3 in 2003. The AD, Steve Pederson, fired Frank Solich stating “I will not let this program fall into mediocrity” or something along those lines. Nebraska football record since 2004 is 136-113 and they haven’t been relevant on the national stage for 20 years. The point of all this is be careful what you wish for. And I know most on this board despise Nebraska so I can handle any and all negative comments you can dish out. 😃😃

 

[GlenHawk]

Not exactly what you are asking for but some NCAA stats showing overall performance taken from BWI.

View embedded media

Lol does BWI’s NCAA tourney archive really start at 2010?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I grew up in Western Iowa and was a Hawk fan in all sports. After graduating high school, I went to the college at Nebraska. I was there from 1993-1998. Football team won 3 National titles in 4 years and Osborne hand picked Frank Solich to take over. They lost 4 games in 1998 but then rebounded to win the Big 12 in 1999 going 12-1. Had good season in 2000 and the somehow snuck in the National Title game in 2001 after getting blasted by Colorado and Miami put a beat down on them in the Championship Game. They went 7-7 in 2002 and rebounded to go 10-3 in 2003. The AD, Steve Pederson, fired Frank Solich stating “I will not let this program fall into mediocrity” or something along those lines. Nebraska football record since 2004 is 136-113 and they haven’t been relevant on the national stage for 20 years. The point of all this is be careful what you wish for. And I know most on this board despise Nebraska so I can handle any and all negative comments you can dish out. 😃😃

That 2001 Miami team was the best team I’ve ever seen. Frank Gore and Willis Magahee were 3rd string. Andre Johnson, Kellen Winslow Jr, Antrel Rolle, Sean Taylor and Vince Wilfork were backups. Senior leaders included Ed Reed and Bryant McKinnie.

Ludicrous roster

 

[mcpat]

Lol does BWI’s NCAA tourney archive really start at 2010?

Lol. That’s pretty funny actually.