Issues to address

[Iowabandwagon]

Numbers 3 and 4 stand out to me.

Something needs to change as far as urgency goes. Too much hanging out and waiting. Someone brought up the experience of Jake Herbert training in Russia the other day. Apparently their live goes approximate match conditions. Extra long live goes in practice might not promote urgency.

And the recruiting aspect…. I get that we like our guys and feel loyalty to the starters, but we need to decide if we’re looking to win national championships in team loyalty or team points.

In today’s environment, a top thirty recruit is a project. Their contributions should be a pleasant surprise rather than crucial to success of team.

Absolutely. That’s all.

 

[24 so far]

Looks to me like the natives are restless and there's lots of frustration. That's probably true for the team as well.
I expect that TnT will do a post-mortem on this season, asking themselves:
"What's not working and what IS working?"
Then they may talk to people connected to the program (Gable, Barta, team, etc.), and then make some decisions. Expect changes.

Expect changes? I don't. The only one I could see is the S&C Coach because he's low hanging fruit that nobody knows and injuries were off the charts bad (no offense to the young man, maybe he's really good at his craft, no idea).

Tom Brands - "It's a lot more fun to grab a guy after a Championship and that's where we have to get to".

"A lot of stuff is private for me right now. I'm jealous of 5 Titles by the Championship Team. I'm jealous. That's where my mind is right now".

What I would say to this is then you have to change the narrative at NCCA's and beat Penn State head to head when it matters, and overall the Hawks have sucked at that even when they've had the talent to do so, certainly recently and without question for the last decade +.

We've had MULTIPLE National Champion type Wrestler's come thru this program recently, that never got there. That's on the Coaches IMO. That is their cross to bare moreso than the athletes. That's how I see it, if you don't fine by me.

I've said many times we are an incredibly spoiled fan base (Thanks Dan Gable). I can handle the Hawks not winning Titles all the time, what I'm not fond of is our lack of individual National Champions (or even Finalists for that matter), and not even remotely close to being in the hunt on many Saturday nights over the last decade +. (I am far more Team oriented versus Individual National Titles, but they pretty much go hand in hand most years it seems).

We are still very much relevant, and fairly consistent I guess you could say, all I ask is to be within sniffing distance more often, then a good break here or there potentially gets it done. We have every resource available to us to do just that IMO. And I am in the camp that thinks if this particular team was healthy all year we win it again, and maybe even without Spencer Lee. We will never know cause it wasn't remotely close to healthy.

Anyway, I don't expect any change, certainly nothing significant. Brands just signed an extension, he's not going anywhere, we know that much. The cupboard isn't bare and the sky is not falling, but figure out a way to get your guys hand raised more often when it counts.

 

[nitlion6]

One thing I will say is most Iowa fans have NO IDEA how spoiled you are! I mean it respectfully, you are almost all diehards that bleed black and gold. But, your “problems” are things that 95% of the rest of DI would give their right arms to have and PSU is the ONLY team that compares and, admittedly, surpasses.

Simply put, you just won a team championship last year and were clearly the best team the Year before, being robbed by Covid. If not for a slew of injuries, you were probably in it to the very end with PSU last night.

Now, I do agree that, to be the best, you need to constantly identify weakness and look for ways to improve, But, you can’t lose sight of how good you actually have been simply because PSU is so good that you think you aren’t.

PSU is the UNICORN right now. They are the perfect storm of converging elements that Iowa is simply ill equipped to match. The resources, the coaching staff, the location, etc. make it an uphill battle of epic proportions.

I know the Iowa mantra has always been, if you are second you are last, but, under Brands, you have been clearly the 2nd best by a large margin behind a dynasty that is now challenging Gable as the best in modern wrestling.

Finally, I am just saying, don’t miss the forest looking through the trees. You are still right near the top, chasing only 1 team. Fix what you can in a smart and efficient manner, but wholesale changes to chase a dynasty you simply may not be able to catch, risks letting other teams catch up to you in the process.

During Cael's time at PSU, Iowa has won 2 team titles and Ohio State 1. Ohio State has more top 2 finishes 4, to Iowa's 3. I don't think I would say Iowa is PSU's biggest by far challenger.

 

[Iowabandwagon]

8. Match planning and strategy. It seems like it's a lot more likely for an Iowa guy to wrestle and beat a guy then lose to him the next match or 5 next matches then for an Iowa guy to lose to a guy then win the next match. Why is this? It seems like our guys make stupid choices like taking down when we shouldn't. Penn State is the opposite. Are TnT having strategy sessions with wrestlers with film and game plans? Some times to me it seems like Cael is playing chess and TnT are playing rock em sock em robots.

Perfect. Nick lee and rby, for example, were very beatable but became virtually unbeatable…how/why? That’s the question. See Vincenzo and his 12 losses or whatever it was his freshman year and then 3 finals appearances later…why? They’re being coached and trained the right way like mike Tyson when he was with d’amato. Some buy in but others don’t. That old style of I’ll out condition you and hold position and win doesn’t work. Rby was actually stronger and in better shape than desanto. Amazing I know, but it’s true. They could’ve gone two more go’s and it’s the same result. They won every finals like they always do. Unbelievable. The brands and the gable methodology aren’t working. Abandon that and get with the offensive program. Those psu guys are so relaxed out there. It’s crazy. They shrug attempts off and it’s not so much strength, it’s savvy and then they dictate when they want to get offensive. There is a style there. I’ve been paying attention. I’ve never watched any wrestler other than penn state wrestlers shrug of singles the way they do. Dake makes people miss better but even he expends more energy making guys miss than those guys do. Brands bros need to up their video sessions that we all have access to. I’ll put together a highlight of what these penn staters do. Might need help uploading but yeah, there’s something there.

 

[Iowabandwagon]

PSu is indeed the gold standard right now but you are full of it to say they are close to Gable.

Take a good look at his record which CLEARLY you have not.

And remember he did it back when wrestling was much more popular.

Tom himself has said Carl is doing what gable did and possible at a better rate. So relax. Carl’s record speaks for itself and I loathe that mfer. Truly would piss in his mouth but he does win.

 

[nitlion6]

Average out those placements against EVERY other team. You will find that NO OTHER team is even close other than PSU. Literally not even close…

It all depends on how you look at it. Sure you can finish 3 through 5 every year with one or two runs at championship every 10 years and be proud because obviously that is tough to do. Or, looking at it from OSU's perspective. Make 4 runs a decade, and finish below 5th in the other 6 years.
Iowa is always in the conversation, but rarely is it Iowa chasing Penn State hard at the end. As a matter of fact, it is never Iowa who claims second place behind a Penn State championship.

 

[nitlion6]

PSu is indeed the gold standard right now but you are full of it to say they are close to Gable.

Take a good look at his record which CLEARLY you have not.

And remember he did it back when wrestling was much more popular.

Cael has 9 championships and it isn't a stretch to imagine by the end of the decade Cael will either have equaled Gable's number of 15 championships or be within an arm's reach. Pretending Cael isn't doing Gable things simply shows your ignorance.

 

[Iowabandwagon]

It all depends on how you look at it. Sure you can finish 3 through 5 every year with one or two runs at championship every 10 years and be proud because obviously that is tough to do. Or, looking at it from OSU's perspective. Make 4 runs a decade, and finish below 5th in the other 6 years.
Iowa is always in the conversation, but rarely is it Iowa chasing Penn State hard at the end. As a matter of fact, it is never Iowa who claims second place behind a Penn State championship.

This is a backhanded compliment. Enjoy your championship and stfu. I have plenty of ammo for other Iowa fans on here to be upset about. Penn state is winning and it sucks. Don’t need you to tell anybody about it. Kindly, eat a dick.

 

[nitlion6]

#1- YES, they must take a look at what they are doing. I wrote about it several times already, but in a nut shell. Someone, somehow, find out what kind of training they are doing in the off season? Maybe, some answers could be found here?

I would not wrestle any tough matches till after break, season is too long I believe and the grind of practice appears to be an issue.

#2-YES, I believe that they are too limited on the way they teach. I know for instance they do not like Leg rides. Eierman only one doing it and that is because he came over as a JR. I remember Evans use to use it and as time went on it became less and less till zero. Everyone has different styles. Develop/improve what the kids already have and do! DeSanto not being able to finish even one shot on RBY in like the last 5 matches has me stumped!

#3 Someone said it very clearly somewhere. What is typically know as IOWA STYLE does not work well when the F-in refs do not call stalling!!! Clearly rules have to be changed. PUSH OUTS like FS would be a great start. How about a rule about this new "funk" crap. Something like. If offensive wrestlers A shoots, and defensive Wrestler B dives on an ankle. If no wrestler scores and it is blown a stale mate. Wrestler B gets a stall call. This is by rule a stall because many times you are avoiding action! Reward OFFENSIVE Wrestling! My MOM watching NCAA finals probable 15 year ago said. "You could never have wrestled like this." She was 100% dead right! I would have been stalled out of the match before the 3rd period just on the parallel rides for GOD sake!!!

#4 RECRUITMENT, find a way to get to the F*** st level or die!!! I understand whatever it is they are doing maybe shady etc.... but they are getting away with it!!! With this new NIL crap, new doors are open for more "creative ways" of bringing in kids. Figure it out and fast! They recruited OVER a 197 and 285 AA type Wrestler. Let that sink in. Say round of 16 or better wrestlers at the 2 toughest weights to fill. Not only that. they then added TWO more 2nd semester kids!?!?!? I am still wondering how you do this??? Remember the stud kid from Cali who went MMA. Forget his name right now, but they said in part he didn't have grades. So you sign him up 2nd semester. No GPA to maintain, hell do you even have to go to classes. This must be great for B-ball. get kids off the street for their march sh*t show! need to average at least 1 top ten P4p kid a year! My aim/goal would be 2. Believe ohio st landed 3 this year right?

#5 YEP, better get Jiggy wit it. New era is here take the lead.

#8Use the new girls wrestling to help grow the mens. I am not a huge fan of girls wrestling but it is growing fast and appears here to stay. They lady HAWKS seem to be building a dynasty team right now. How this will play out remains to be seen? I would however be using it to my advantage. Recruiting weekends bringing in guys and girls, side by side duals when wrestling a less quality opponent to fill the house. tournaments, camps, be the first and best place for the ladies. Have they guys run clinics to make money. How about facilities? When the new one is built can the old one become the girls room? Have the two best facilities in the country.

Just to add one other thing. Practice some "big" moves! Not just us but... remember Mcd hitting that headlock, or how about the one in Minnesota! Just a couple of examples but when someone was down by a few points with say 30 seconds to go you might as well go get yourself a cone because the match is over. MAN give yourself a shot!!!! See guys diving in on a double down by 4 with time winding down What the hell!?!?!?!

As always, brilliant. Good Lord I wish TnT would hire you for planning purposes.

 

[nitlion6]

This is a backhanded compliment. Enjoy your championship and stfu. I have plenty of ammo for other Iowa fans on here to be upset about. Penn state is winning and it sucks. Don’t need you to tell anybody about it. Kindly, eat a dick.

Come on dude, don't be such a bitter little guy.

 

[Iowabandwagon]

Come on dude, don't be such a bitter little guy.

Any chance I could get you and Johnstown to meet me on the mat at the same time at young guns? I’m right down the road. For a little guy, I bet I’d toss you on your head, clown. I’ll even video it and have someone upload it here who is more tech savvy than I. What do you say?

 

[bourbon n blues]

If they aren’t going to start enforcing stalling it’ll change the rules to prevent it, then we need to start coaching guys to stall like Penn State. Unfortunately “if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em” applies or we’re going to continue to play third fiddle.

Stall like the team that outscored Iowa by 57.5 points? I don't think the stalling charge is a legitimate take.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Any chance I could get you and Johnstown to meet me on the mat at the same time at young guns? I’m right down the road. For a little guy, I bet I’d toss you on your head, clown. I’ll even video it and have someone upload it here who is more tech savvy than I. What do you say?

Maybe Iowa could use you then??

 

[MSU158]

During Cael's time at PSU, Iowa has won 2 team titles and Ohio State 1. Ohio State has more top 2 finishes 4, to Iowa's 3. I don't think I would say Iowa is PSU's biggest by far challenger.

It all depends on how you look at it. Sure you can finish 3 through 5 every year with one or two runs at championship every 10 years and be proud because obviously that is tough to do. Or, looking at it from OSU's perspective. Make 4 runs a decade, and finish below 5th in the other 6 years.
Iowa is always in the conversation, but rarely is it Iowa chasing Penn State hard at the end. As a matter of fact, it is never Iowa who claims second place behind a Penn State championship.

It is SIMPLE math. I didn’t say anything about being right on PSU’s tail. Don’t diminish the UNDENIABLE fact that Iowa is ALWAYS top 5. tOSU had a really strong 5 year stretch but are NOT even close over Brands entire tenure. That 5 year stretch doesn’t let you ignore some TERRIBLE finishes mixed in.

Also, to be clear, Iowa has won FOUR championships under Brands, not 2. Wrestling didn’t start once Cael started at PSU, regardless of what PSU fans think.

Finally, I love how it isn’t enough for some Of you to just be happy with how good your team is. Instead, you need to come on here to belittle a program decimated by injury that STILL took 3rd while the tOSU team you mentioned took 13th and OkState 14th. Gotta love it.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

It is SIMPLE math. I didn’t say anything about being right on PSU’s tail. Don’t diminish the UNDENIABLE fact that Iowa is ALWAYS top 5. tOSU had a really strong 5 year stretch but are NOT even close over Brands entire tenure. That 5 year stretch doesn’t let you ignore some TERRIBLE finishes mixed in.

Also, to be clear, Iowa has won FOUR championships under Brands, not 2. Wrestling didn’t start once Cael started at PSU, regardless of what PSU fans think.

Finally, I love how it isn’t enough for some Of you to just be happy with how good your team is. Instead, you need to come on here to belittle a program decimated by injury that STILL took 3rd while the tOSU team you mentioned took 13th and OkState 14th. Gotta love it.

FWIW, this Iowa fan thinks you have a very clear understanding of the lay of the land. Thanks for your insight and analysis. PSU is unquestionably at the top of the pile right now, but all things considered, Iowa comes in right behind them...although the gap between 1st and 2nd is quite a bit wider than I would prefer. Iowa is a clear #2 as a program when you look back over time and don't over focus on any short stretch of years.

There is something, or perhaps more than one somethings, that PSU is doing to achieve their high level of success. But...it is not as if everyone that dons the Blue & White singlet is magically transformed into an unbeatable champ, although some certainly are. There are many examples of well feted grapplers that went there that did NOT then go on to high level success.

I think an analysis, were it to be possible, of why some DON'T make the transformation to world beater might produce as much insight as to why several do. Certainly, bringing in multiple guys that are at the very top of the P4P ratings is a key to having multiple guys wrestling, and winning, on Saturday night...but that isn't the whole story IMO.

 

[MilleGinja]

During Cael's time at PSU, Iowa has won 2 team titles and Ohio State 1. Ohio State has more top 2 finishes 4, to Iowa's 3. I don't think I would say Iowa is PSU's biggest by far challenger.

Ohio State finished 9th last year and like 13th this year.

 

[bdcolt45er]

I would be curious to see an analysis of the super seniors and how they did. I have a belief that the college wrestling grind isn't particularly good for the athletes. The grind of meeting weekly weigh-ins creates a lot of risk for injury and less time to work on skills. A lot of these older guys in the past, if they still were competing would be training for a few freestyle competitions a year. If you start to pick up injuries during training then you can back off and recover. You can also spend more time focused on building a fitness foundation. But when you have to make weight on a weekly basis you can't really take a break. I don't think Iowa is the only team where some of the older guys are breaking down. I also wonder if some of this can be traced back to these guys competing in so many youth competitions.

It seems to that the Brands have been more willing to rest guys in during the season. The typical approach to this is to sit a guy for 1 of the 2 duals in a weekend. I would suggest a better approach would be to give guys the whole weekend off. That way you are in effect giving 2 weeks of recovery/ training. If I have to wrestle one of the matches I have to prepare the same way.

 

[grapplefann]

Expect changes? I don't. The only one I could see is the S&C Coach because he's low hanging fruit that nobody knows and injuries were off the charts bad (no offense to the young man, maybe he's really good at his craft, no idea).

Tom Brands - "It's a lot more fun to grab a guy after a Championship and that's where we have to get to".

"A lot of stuff is private for me right now. I'm jealous of 5 Titles by the Championship Team. I'm jealous. That's where my mind is right now".

What I would say to this is then you have to change the narrative at NCCA's and beat Penn State head to head when it matters, and overall the Hawks have sucked at that even when they've had the talent to do so, certainly recently and without question for the last decade +.

We've had MULTIPLE National Champion type Wrestler's come thru this program recently, that never got there. That's on the Coaches IMO. That is their cross to bare moreso than the athletes. That's how I see it, if you don't fine by me.

I've said many times we are an incredibly spoiled fan base (Thanks Dan Gable). I can handle the Hawks not winning Titles all the time, what I'm not fond of is our lack of individual National Champions (or even Finalists for that matter), and not even remotely close to being in the hunt on many Saturday nights over the last decade +. (I am far more Team oriented versus Individual National Titles, but they pretty much go hand in hand most years it seems).

We are still very much relevant, and fairly consistent I guess you could say, all I ask is to be within sniffing distance more often, then a good break here or there potentially gets it done. We have every resource available to us to do just that IMO. And I am in the camp that thinks if this particular team was healthy all year we win it again, and maybe even without Spencer Lee. We will never know cause it wasn't remotely close to healthy.

Anyway, I don't expect any change, certainly nothing significant. Brands just signed an extension, he's not going anywhere, we know that much. The cupboard isn't bare and the sky is not falling, but figure out a way to get your guys hand raised more often when it counts.

I'm not saying that we need dramatic changes like some others want. I'm just saying that Tom Brands will adjust to the conditions he finds.

What I don't like is when we don't wrestle hard and well. I'd say that few takedowns and those losses in overtime are particularly concerning.
What's that old Gable saying?
The first period goes to the guy with the best skills.
The second period goes to the guy in the best condition.
The third period goes to the guy with the biggest heart.

That may not be exactly what Gable said, but I think that it gets the drift.

 

[grapplefann]

Perfect. Nick lee and rby, for example, were very beatable but became virtually unbeatable…how/why? That’s the question. See Vincenzo and his 12 losses or whatever it was his freshman year and then 3 finals appearances later…why? They’re being coached and trained the right way like mike Tyson when he was with d’amato. Some buy in but others don’t. That old style of I’ll out condition you and hold position and win doesn’t work. Rby was actually stronger and in better shape than desanto. Amazing I know, but it’s true. They could’ve gone two more go’s and it’s the same result. They won every finals like they always do. Unbelievable. The brands and the gable methodology aren’t working. Abandon that and get with the offensive program. Those psu guys are so relaxed out there. It’s crazy. They shrug attempts off and it’s not so much strength, it’s savvy and then they dictate when they want to get offensive. There is a style there. I’ve been paying attention. I’ve never watched any wrestler other than penn state wrestlers shrug of singles the way they do. Dake makes people miss better but even he expends more energy making guys miss than those guys do. Brands bros need to up their video sessions that we all have access to. I’ll put together a highlight of what these penn staters do. Might need help uploading but yeah, there’s something there.

I see your points, but I'm not sure that we ARE following the "Brands and Gable methodology" right now. I'm not sure that methodology IS "out condition and hold position," as I give Gable more credit than this for the great years, but maybe some others have better insight than I do on this.

 

[MSU158]

So here are the FLAT OUT UNDENIABLE NUMBERS: (with the 3 years Sanderson was at ISU in parenthesis)

-------------Iowa-------------PSU------------tOSU-------------OkState---------------Cornell
2007:------8th--------------11th(2nd)------10th----------------5th--------------------12th
2008:------1st---------------3rd(5th)-------2nd-----------------5th---------------------9th
2009:------1st---------------17th(3rd)------2nd----------------16th---------------------5th
2010:-------1st---------------9th-------------8th-----------------6th---------------------2nd
2011:--------3rd--------------1st--------------29th---------------4th---------------------2nd
2012:-------3rd--------------1st---------------5th----------------6th----------------------4th
2013:-------4th--------------1st---------------6th----------------2nd---------------------5th
2014:-------4th--------------1st---------------6th----------------3rd---------------------7th
2015:-------2nd--------------6th--------------1st-----------------7th---------------------5th
2016:-------5th(penalty)--1st---------------3rd-----------------2nd--------------------7th
2017:-------4th--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------3rd--------------------8th
2018:-------3rd--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------13th-------------------7th
2019:-------4th--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------3rd--------------------7th
2020: Covid-clear 1st----4th at B1G------3rd at B1G--------1st Big 12-------------2nd EIWA
2021:-------1st---------------2nd--------------9th----------------3rd---------------------Covid
2022:-------3rd--------------1st---------------13th----------------14th--------------------7th
______________________________________________________________________________________________
--------47/15=3.133---------57/15=3.8------103/15=6.867----92/15=6.2------------89/14=6.357

To be fair to Sanderson taking his ISU numbers instead of the PSU 2007-2009 would change it to 40/15=2.667

There is NO DOUBT that PSU is FAR AHEAD since Sanderson took over. But, again, NO OTHER team is even close to Iowa over that timeframe. Also, don't forget, Iowa would almost undoubtedly be even farther ahead if not for Covid stealing the 2020 NCAA tournament!

 

[Descat1]

During Cael's time at PSU, Iowa has won 2 team titles and Ohio State 1. Ohio State has more top 2 finishes 4, to Iowa's 3. I don't think I would say Iowa is PSU's biggest by far challenger.

Ha, is this the same Ohio State Team that finished 13th this year and had an awful year last year as well. Crushed in dual meets and have not even been close the past few years... Your statement is obviously from a jaded lens that needs to be cleaned or wiped off. Idiotic post, but consistent with what I've read from you in the past.

 

[MVPFAN]

Imo the close match/OT issue is all about confidence and preparation. It's clear PSU is quite confident and prepared for these situations. The fact they are all pretty good on top and at getting away probably helps because they don't have to panic and force anything.

 

[PSU Mike]

I have actually posted it on here more than once. Trust me, especially after Ohio State taking 13th and OkState 14th, it isn’t even close.

The funny thing is, if you don’t count last year against Cornell, because they couldn’t control the Ivies shutting down, they are the ONLY other team to finish in the top 10 every year during that timeframe.

And I know there’s some debate whether Koll or Gray is most responsible for Cornell, but Koll is now at a unique place and he has a guy on staff in Joseph that puts him a step ahead on the mixing new blood (from PSU) and a track record. A good number of wrestlers are good students, so who knows where Stanford can get. Northwestern was in a good spot this year.

 

[MVPFAN]

And I know there’s some debate whether Koll or Gray is most responsible for Cornell, but Koll is now at a unique place and he has a guy on staff in Joseph that puts him a step ahead on the mixing new blood (from PSU) and a track record. A good number of wrestlers are good students, so who knows where Stanford can get. Northwestern was in a good spot this year.

Koll will likely do well. A lot of potential money backing at Stanford.

 

[LIV4GOD]

We've had MULTIPLE National Champion type Wrestler's come thru this program recently, that never got there. That's on the Coaches IMO. That is their cross to bare moreso than the athletes.

There has to be something lacking in coaching for the usual attacking Bull to not have one single offensive attempt against Amine in their last two matches. This is a mystery to me.

What is also a mystery to me is how Terry Brands can have a son in the program who doesn't wrestle like a Brands.

 

[vhsalum]

And I know there’s some debate whether Koll or Gray is most responsible for Cornell, but Koll is now at a unique place and he has a guy on staff in Joseph that puts him a step ahead on the mixing new blood (from PSU) and a track record. A good number of wrestlers are good students, so who knows where Stanford can get. Northwestern was in a good spot this year.

There is no debate who is most responsible for Cornell. Grey wasn't on staff (he was in the lineup) the first time Cornell finished as runner-ups. The Friedman Center, the juco admissions diversion, the fundraising, the recruiting - that's all Koll.

 

[MVPFAN]

There has to be something lacking in coaching for the usual attacking Bull to not have one single offensive attempt against Amine in their last two matches. This is a mystery to me.

What is also a mystery to me is how Terry Brands can have a son in the program who doesn't wrestle like a Brands.

When you watch the Brands they hand fought but they had constant motion with it and they were firing off scoring opportunities frequently, singles, doubles, high C's, ankle picked go behinds. Nelson, Bull, Murin, Young etc stand head to head hand fighting and head snapping with no motion and very few shots. There is a big disconnect somewhere.

I'll add not everyone has a gas tank like they had to do that so if they want guys that can go like that they better make sure the tank is good during recruiting or be able to have guys with less of a tank excel with a different style.

 

[oldcougar65]

I hate to be negative, but so many posts here attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Iowa is stuck in a rut and won't get out of it without a change in wrestling philosophy.
In the 80's I was at PA states. A freshman I had been following through youth wrestling for years made the finals, then lost in an incredible shootout. What I learned that night is: this kid went for the pin in every position. Every move he made was designed to score points. He won out the rest of his HS career -3xer. I was just about to retire as a coach, but I thought this might be revolutionary idea: keep scoring.
When Cael, came to PSU, his primary philosophy appeared to be: score points. Simple as that. When PSU goes to nationals, their kids score points. Iowa wrestlers not named ADS or Spencer try to win 2-1 bore-fests.
So at Nationals, PSU wracks up bonus wins while the Hawks advance with regular decisions or get knocked off by a lucky takedown or stall call.

The jealousy of some posters here force them to ignore what PSU is doing right. Of course they get great recruits. But even the not-so-great recruits end up as national champs. Anthony Cassar didn't even make his state tourney till his Senior year in hs. He didn't become the regular PSU starter till his Senior year in college. And then he was national champ.
I followed Vincenzo Joseph from 9th grade on (he placed 7th at 106---Kemmerer placed 2nd at the same weight class). He was a nice, solid, unspectacular wrestler. Cael made him a 3x finalist, 2x NC. Anyone with eyes can see the development of RBY and Nick Lee since they came to Happy Valley, both 2xers, so far. Notice their freshmen years they were mid-AA level. Lee came back for another 5th place finish. And then he caught on(?) and became the stud that he is, even beating former Nits-greats in freestyle

Look at the seeding at Nationals. How does Iowa do against seed? How does PSU do against seed?

That should show that there is a problem. The solution? score more points.

 

[pablow]

I hate to be negative, but so many posts here attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Iowa is stuck in a rut and won't get out of it without a change in wrestling philosophy.
In the 80's I was at PA states. A freshman I had been following through youth wrestling for years made the finals, then lost in an incredible shootout. What I learned that night is: this kid went for the pin in every position. Every move he made was designed to score points. He won out the rest of his HS career -3xer. I was just about to retire as a coach, but I thought this might be revolutionary idea: keep scoring.
When Cael, came to PSU, his primary philosophy appeared to be: score points. Simple as that. When PSU goes to nationals, their kids score points. Iowa wrestlers not named ADS or Spencer try to win 2-1 bore-fests.
So at Nationals, PSU wracks up bonus wins while the Hawks advance with regular decisions or get knocked off by a lucky takedown or stall call.

The jealousy of some posters here force them to ignore what PSU is doing right. Of course they get great recruits. But even the not-so-great recruits end up as national champs. Anthony Cassar didn't even make his state tourney till his Senior year in hs. He didn't become the regular PSU starter till his Senior year in college. And then he was national champ.
I followed Vincenzo Joseph from 9th grade on (he placed 7th at 106---Kemmerer placed 2nd at the same weight class). He was a nice, solid, unspectacular wrestler. Cael made him a 3x finalist, 2x NC. Anyone with eyes can see the development of RBY and Nick Lee since they came to Happy Valley, both 2xers, so far. Notice their freshmen years they were mid-AA level. Lee came back for another 5th place finish. And then he caught on(?) and became the stud that he is, even beating former Nits-greats in freestyle

Look at the seeding at Nationals. How does Iowa do against seed? How does PSU do against seed?

That should show that there is a problem. The solution? score more points.

You remind me of those Underpants Gnomes on South Park -

 

[oldcougar65]

You remind me of those Underpants Gnomes on South Park -

View embedded media

but did they score?

 

[BBptg5]

When you watch the Brands they hand fought but they had constant motion with it and they were firing off scoring opportunities frequently, singles, doubles, high C's, ankle picked go behinds. Nelson, Bull, Murin, Young etc stand head to head hand fighting and head snapping with no motion and very few shots. There is a big disconnect somewhere.

You are so right. There is a distinct difference between the Gable style/philosophy and that of Brands. Gable demanded conditioning, physicality and OFFENSIVE ATTACKS.

 

[MSU158]

I hate to be negative, but so many posts here attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Iowa is stuck in a rut and won't get out of it without a change in wrestling philosophy.
In the 80's I was at PA states. A freshman I had been following through youth wrestling for years made the finals, then lost in an incredible shootout. What I learned that night is: this kid went for the pin in every position. Every move he made was designed to score points. He won out the rest of his HS career -3xer. I was just about to retire as a coach, but I thought this might be revolutionary idea: keep scoring.
When Cael, came to PSU, his primary philosophy appeared to be: score points. Simple as that. When PSU goes to nationals, their kids score points. Iowa wrestlers not named ADS or Spencer try to win 2-1 bore-fests.
So at Nationals, PSU wracks up bonus wins while the Hawks advance with regular decisions or get knocked off by a lucky takedown or stall call.

The jealousy of some posters here force them to ignore what PSU is doing right. Of course they get great recruits. But even the not-so-great recruits end up as national champs. Anthony Cassar didn't even make his state tourney till his Senior year in hs. He didn't become the regular PSU starter till his Senior year in college. And then he was national champ.
I followed Vincenzo Joseph from 9th grade on (he placed 7th at 106---Kemmerer placed 2nd at the same weight class). He was a nice, solid, unspectacular wrestler. Cael made him a 3x finalist, 2x NC. Anyone with eyes can see the development of RBY and Nick Lee since they came to Happy Valley, both 2xers, so far. Notice their freshmen years they were mid-AA level. Lee came back for another 5th place finish. And then he caught on(?) and became the stud that he is, even beating former Nits-greats in freestyle

Look at the seeding at Nationals. How does Iowa do against seed? How does PSU do against seed?

That should show that there is a problem. The solution? score more points.

Lol. There are so many inaccurate, misleading things in this post, I am not sure where to start. PSU is definitely a juggernaught that may prove to be even better under Sanderson than Iowa was under Gable. Winning 9 of 12 contested NCAA's with the others being 9th(1st year), 6th and 2nd place finishes is UNBELIEVABLE. Still, your context is terrible:

1.) What in the hell does a PA stud good enough to win 3 PA State titles and make the Finals as a freshman have to do with the price of tea in China? Newsflash, Unicorns aren't the norm. 99.9% of DI wrestlers don't have the skill set to wrestle that way and most would lose a TON if they tried.

2a.) Against very good wrestlers, the current PSU wrestlers DO NOT light up the scoreboard. RBY beat DeSanto 3-2 and Fix 3-2, with as much focus on eating up time riding as possible. Even Nick Lee, who is the most active guy on their team only won 2 matches by bonus. He beat Real Woods 3-2, again with a big focus on eating time riding. Starocci won 1 match by bonus and probably had damn near 20 total minutes of riding time in those 5 matches. He actually beat Lewis having 1 takedown, but due to riding time. Brooks beat Hidlay 6-4 in OT and Amine 5-3 with about 4 minutes of riding time. Max Dean(the one PSU guy I was actually happy for) was GIFTED multiple matches to sneak into the Finals. Still, he scored 4 or less in 3 of his 5 matches. That was 5 champs but. they were NOT "their kids scoring points".

2b.) Iowa just won NCAA's last year scoring a TON of bonus points across the board. Hell, even Murin scored bonus points the past 2 seasons. If not for Covid, 2020 would have probably been a landslide win. This year they were DECIMATED by injury. The fact guys like Kemerer and Cass gutted out some big wins to AA is a testament to their heart and overall wrestling abilities. Shame Lee and inevitably Eierman simply couldn't wrestle due to their injuries.

3.) Do you have ANY idea what Cassar did coming into PSU and then his very first redshirt year? He DOMINATED New Jersey to become an undefeated state champ as a Senior and then went on to win the Junior National World Team Trials and wrestle for the Junior World Team as a TRUE FRESHMAN. The guy was CRIMINALLY underrated, because he blossomed late, but STILL before being PSU trained. Also, the ONLY reason he wasn't the starter multiple years is a SLEW of injuries. When he finally had a fully healthy season he won NCAA's.

4.)This is the FUNNIEST part. You use Joseph's freshman year in High School as the barometer while ignoring the subsequent years. In 2015 Joseph was ranked the NUMBER 3 OVERALLrecruit in the ENTIRE COUNTRY. Kemerer was actually 9th. Go figure.

5.) RBY and Lee were also top 10 recruits. RBY was smallish at the beginning of his career. Once he developed a bit more physically he became exactly who he is. Lee was a contender his entire 4 years, but battled some injuries a bit early on and his 1st 2 years the weight was an ABSOLUTE MEATGRINDER. Hell, if we wrestled 2020, he may only have 1 championship instead of 2 considering Pletcher beat him at B1G's that year.

6a.) PSU has bona fide studs to start. NO TEAM recruits remotely close. Still, it is undeniable they develop and make these guys AWESOME. But, that has NOTHING to do with Iowa. When you have 4-1 seeds and 1-2 seed, they should be wrestling in the Finals. Especially when that 2 seed had some incredible help by the refs. Meanwhile, Hildebrandt, Bartlett and Berge did nothing.

6b.) Last year Lee wrestled to 1st as the 1 seed. DeSanto took 3rd as the 4 seed. Eierman took 2nd as the 1 seed. Murin tied for 9th as the 12 seed. Young took 7th as the 5 seed. Marinelli broke a rib as the 1 seed and had to default out. Kemerer took 2nd as the 1 seed. Brands was 1-2 as the 12 seed. Warner took 4th as the 5th seed and Cass took 3rd as the 5th seed. With the exception of Marinelli getting injured, they wrestled great in respect to seeding. Even this year, with all the injuries Ayala was 1-2 as the 13 seed, DeSanto took 3rd as the 5th seed, Eierman went 1-2 having to default out due to injury, Murin tied for 9th as the 8 seed, drawing the 6th seed in the R12. Young went 2-2 as the 9 seed losing to the 8th and 1st seeds. Marinelli took 5th as the 3 seed. Kemerer took 4th as the 5 seed. Assad went 1-2 as the 18th seed. Warner took 2nd as the 6 seed and Cass took 7th as the 3 seed. Again, even with injuries they held serve as a team.

7.) Finally, your whole argument is "just score more points". This is HILARIOUS. How exactly do you do this when fundamentals and counterwrestling are BY FAR the best they have ever been at the DI level. Hell, even PSU's top guys are focusing on killing time riding, because of how hard it is to score in today's neutral wrestling landscape!

 

[grapplefann]

I hate to be negative, but so many posts here attempt to put lipstick on a pig. Iowa is stuck in a rut and won't get out of it without a change in wrestling philosophy.
In the 80's I was at PA states. A freshman I had been following through youth wrestling for years made the finals, then lost in an incredible shootout. What I learned that night is: this kid went for the pin in every position. Every move he made was designed to score points. He won out the rest of his HS career -3xer. I was just about to retire as a coach, but I thought this might be revolutionary idea: keep scoring.
When Cael, came to PSU, his primary philosophy appeared to be: score points. Simple as that. When PSU goes to nationals, their kids score points. Iowa wrestlers not named ADS or Spencer try to win 2-1 bore-fests.
So at Nationals, PSU wracks up bonus wins while the Hawks advance with regular decisions or get knocked off by a lucky takedown or stall call.

The jealousy of some posters here force them to ignore what PSU is doing right. Of course they get great recruits. But even the not-so-great recruits end up as national champs. Anthony Cassar didn't even make his state tourney till his Senior year in hs. He didn't become the regular PSU starter till his Senior year in college. And then he was national champ.
I followed Vincenzo Joseph from 9th grade on (he placed 7th at 106---Kemmerer placed 2nd at the same weight class). He was a nice, solid, unspectacular wrestler. Cael made him a 3x finalist, 2x NC. Anyone with eyes can see the development of RBY and Nick Lee since they came to Happy Valley, both 2xers, so far. Notice their freshmen years they were mid-AA level. Lee came back for another 5th place finish. And then he caught on(?) and became the stud that he is, even beating former Nits-greats in freestyle

Look at the seeding at Nationals. How does Iowa do against seed? How does PSU do against seed?

That should show that there is a problem. The solution? score more points.

You are another troll with just a few posts, probably just another PA fan out to trash us here anonymously. Then you wonder why we dislike you.

 

[oldcougar65]

You are another troll with just a few posts, probably just another PA fan out to trash us here anonymously. Then you wonder why we dislike you.

I don't feel like a troll. I'm just stating my belief that I find Iowa wrestling boring. I'm a troll because I think they would have a better shot at a championship if they shot more? In that case, I guess I am.
I didn't come here to throw shade on Iowa. I was trying to state the obvious. I've been a ADS fan for 8 years, long before you bandwagon jumpers got on board. A close friend lives in Exeter. I love Spencer and never liked Suriano, no matter who he currently wrestled for. I was a big Kemmerer fan but I always thought he couldn't finish off a tournament. I was kinda glad that the Hawks got Kemmerer rather than the Nits. He just seemed to come in 2nd in so many tournaments. Always near the top of the podium, rarely on the top.**

My referring to some kid I saw 30 years ago was merely to point out that I first got the hint that total offense was a weird and wonderful way to look at wrestling. Suddenly it was exciting, crowd pleasing, and, oh crap, I gotta say it: F*N.

I will troll you big time, though: I was in college about the same time as DG, who was the god of wrestling even then. Using comparative scores, I was able to firmly establish that I was way better than DG, using only two degrees of Kevin Bacon logic. I could also prove that my Division 2 football team would crush #1 Notre Dame. I love comparative scores.

** I wonder how Kemmerer would have done if he'd gone to PSU? Maybe he could have gotten over the top and actually have been a NC? Now I'm a troll!

 

[T8KUDWN]

I don't feel like a troll. I'm just stating my belief that I find Iowa wrestling boring. I'm a troll because I think they would have a better shot at a championship if they shot more? In that case, I guess I am.
I didn't come here to throw shade on Iowa. I was trying to state the obvious. I've been a ADS fan for 8 years, long before you bandwagon jumpers got on board. A close friend lives in Exeter. I love Spencer and never liked Suriano, no matter who he currently wrestled for. I was a big Kemmerer fan but I always thought he couldn't finish off a tournament. I was kinda glad that the Hawks got Kemmerer rather than the Nits. He just seemed to come in 2nd in so many tournaments. Always near the top of the podium, rarely on the top.**

My referring to some kid I saw 30 years ago was merely to point out that I first got the hint that total offense was a weird and wonderful way to look at wrestling. Suddenly it was exciting, crowd pleasing, and, oh crap, I gotta say it: F*N.

I will troll you big time, though: I was in college about the same time as DG, who was the god of wrestling even then. Using comparative scores, I was able to firmly establish that I was way better than DG, using only two degrees of Kevin Bacon logic. I could also prove that my Division 2 football team would crush #1 Notre Dame. I love comparative scores.

** I wonder how Kemmerer would have done if he'd gone to PSU? Maybe he could have gotten over the top and actually have been a NC? Now I'm a troll!

You are both a troll and an arrogant SOB, just like every other psu fan that has to come to the IOWA forum and pound their chest. Unfortunately, since I enjoy posting on the HR with the rest of my brothers and sisters in the cesspool, I can't truly tell you what kind of worthless piece of bat dung I really think you are. Seriously, why don't guys like you run your mouths when we are all at Big 10s and National Tournament? Why don't you find a Hawk fan and tell them how much you find our wrestlers boring and how great your team is face to face?? Because you are a pompous ass coward....

 

[grapplefann]

I don't feel like a troll. I'm just stating my belief that I find Iowa wrestling boring. I'm a troll because I think they would have a better shot at a championship if they shot more? In that case, I guess I am.
I didn't come here to throw shade on Iowa. I was trying to state the obvious. I've been a ADS fan for 8 years, long before you bandwagon jumpers got on board. A close friend lives in Exeter. I love Spencer and never liked Suriano, no matter who he currently wrestled for. I was a big Kemmerer fan but I always thought he couldn't finish off a tournament. I was kinda glad that the Hawks got Kemmerer rather than the Nits. He just seemed to come in 2nd in so many tournaments. Always near the top of the podium, rarely on the top.**

My referring to some kid I saw 30 years ago was merely to point out that I first got the hint that total offense was a weird and wonderful way to look at wrestling. Suddenly it was exciting, crowd pleasing, and, oh crap, I gotta say it: F*N.

I will troll you big time, though: I was in college about the same time as DG, who was the god of wrestling even then. Using comparative scores, I was able to firmly establish that I was way better than DG, using only two degrees of Kevin Bacon logic. I could also prove that my Division 2 football team would crush #1 Notre Dame. I love comparative scores.

** I wonder how Kemmerer would have done if he'd gone to PSU? Maybe he could have gotten over the top and actually have been a NC? Now I'm a troll!

You always were. We all want our team to shoot more. Besides, we do a good enough job of trashing ourselves without your help. We need this space for us. You use this place to run these losses up our a$$. Try somewhere else.

 

[Jersey_Hawk]

The biggest gap between Iowa and PSU is recruiting / how long do we stick with guys that have underperformed. PSU has had top recruits that don't pan out, but those guys don't stay four-year starters going 1-2 or 2-2. If anything the problem is that TnT are too loyal to their guys. A guy like Abe Assad recruited at ~#30 PFP would not be in the lineup anymore at PSU because they would either have a transfer or a Top 10 freshman coming in.

What I don't understand is how they have soooo many Top 10 guys with only 9.9 scholarships. I get that some guys are willing to only take 25-50% to be a part of a dynasty but still don't get how they stretch it that far. I assume it's some shady stuff were they tell recruits they'll make $10k+ as part of PSU off-season camps. NIL adds another dynamic but Iowa should be able to compete there.

From a pure wrestling standpoint, I agree with bringing in fresh faces, even if its just through HWC. I thought Mark Perry was huge for the program because he has such a different style despite being an Iowa grad. I'd love to see a Reece Humpfrey or Isaiah Martinez in the room. Outside of that, I don't really buy that we're not coaching the guys up enough. It's just that a Top 5 guy has a higher ceiling than a Top 30.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

So here are the FLAT OUT UNDENIABLE NUMBERS: (with the 3 years Sanderson was at ISU in parenthesis)

-------------Iowa-------------PSU------------tOSU-------------OkState---------------Cornell
2007:------8th--------------11th(2nd)------10th----------------5th--------------------12th
2008:------1st---------------3rd(5th)-------2nd-----------------5th---------------------9th
2009:------1st---------------17th(3rd)------2nd----------------16th---------------------5th
2010:-------1st---------------9th-------------8th-----------------6th---------------------2nd
2011:--------3rd--------------1st--------------29th---------------4th---------------------2nd
2012:-------3rd--------------1st---------------5th----------------6th----------------------4th
2013:-------4th--------------1st---------------6th----------------2nd---------------------5th
2014:-------4th--------------1st---------------6th----------------3rd---------------------7th
2015:-------2nd--------------6th--------------1st-----------------7th---------------------5th
2016:-------5th(penalty)--1st---------------3rd-----------------2nd--------------------7th
2017:-------4th--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------3rd--------------------8th
2018:-------3rd--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------13th-------------------7th
2019:-------4th--------------1st---------------2nd-----------------3rd--------------------7th
2020: Covid-clear 1st----4th at B1G------3rd at B1G--------1st Big 12-------------2nd EIWA
2021:-------1st---------------2nd--------------9th----------------3rd---------------------Covid
2022:-------3rd--------------1st---------------13th----------------14th--------------------7th
______________________________________________________________________________________________
--------47/15=3.133---------57/15=3.8------103/15=6.867----92/15=6.2------------89/14=6.357

To be fair to Sanderson taking his ISU numbers instead of the PSU 2007-2009 would change it to 40/15=2.667

There is NO DOUBT that PSU is FAR AHEAD since Sanderson took over. But, again, NO OTHER team is even close to Iowa over that timeframe. Also, don't forget, Iowa would almost undoubtedly be even farther ahead if not for Covid stealing the 2020 NCAA tournament!

Very interesting numbers. Thanks for doing this. It gives a different perspective while we are trying to nurse our wounds and calm our emotions.

I am suprised at how well Cornell looks here. If you add a 5th-8th place in for their 2021 Covid year, they are still ahead of tOSU and not far behind John Smith and his Cowboys.

 

[Agoodnap]

Here's a little tidbit I thought may be relevant. Ed Ruth was 3-1-1 and in an interview right before his senior year he was asked what his goal was for the year. He said that beating Casey Cunningham was his number one. He further said that no one in the room had ever beaten Casey in a live go. He left 3-1-1-1 without reaching his goal.

 

[bourbon n blues]

The biggest gap between Iowa and PSU is recruiting / how long do we stick with guys that have underperformed. PSU has had top recruits that don't pan out, but those guys don't stay four-year starters going 1-2 or 2-2. If anything the problem is that TnT are too loyal to their guys. A guy like Abe Assad recruited at ~#30 PFP would not be in the lineup anymore at PSU because they would either have a transfer or a Top 10 freshman coming in.

What I don't understand is how they have soooo many Top 10 guys with only 9.9 scholarships. I get that some guys are willing to only take 25-50% to be a part of a dynasty but still don't get how they stretch it that far. I assume it's some shady stuff were they tell recruits they'll make $10k+ as part of PSU off-season camps. NIL adds another dynamic but Iowa should be able to compete there.

From a pure wrestling standpoint, I agree with bringing in fresh faces, even if its just through HWC. I thought Mark Perry was huge for the program because he has such a different style despite being an Iowa grad. I'd love to see a Reece Humpfrey or Isaiah Martinez in the room. Outside of that, I don't really buy that we're not coaching the guys up enough. It's just that a Top 5 guy has a higher ceiling than a Top 30.

It's because some people have saved for college , have an affiliation with PSU, or maybe geographically it makes sense . Or all of them.
I would've never sent my kid to Iowa just based on the hassle of traveling . So if psu came calling he'd go there. He's not a wrestler btw and attended Lehigh .
If he was a high end wrestling recruit it would've been PSU then Cornell then Lehigh . He was an engineering major and works for an aerospace company now.
It's not all scholarship money, there are other factors and psu probably is a more attractive location to more people .