You always try to improve, but sometimes you can’t do enough to over take the leader, or fix the problem to your satisfaction.
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- Thread starter eb05
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We agree. The diamonds in the rough are very few and far between. Mesenbrink is one such outlier. He was one year late in leaping levels and had already committed to Cal Baptist as a junior. He was recruited, but he wasn't a must get top 10 guy until he was a senior.
If Brands failed at anything, it was not recognizing that stud recruitment was where the focus needed to be. He was probably a good 5 years late seeing this. Or just stubborn.
The other failure was in not emphasizing and building an RTC that would pull in better freestyle talent and thus better recruiting talent. The whole thing works together. It's harder to pull in some top 10 recruits if you don't have really good practice partners who can help them progress. I feel like the HWC has been used to reward graduating Hawks rather than making the club more elite and a true test for incoming studs.
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Wrong answer. Start policing the morans who start the political conversations, not those of us who reply to the stupidity.
I was told by someone very close to the program that he wants to go 174, but so does O'Toole.
Yep, I’ve heard this as well. He’s looking to go 174 somewhere new.
You realize you are making his point with this sort of ridiculous hyperbole, right? MSU is right about PSU. Right now, everyone is at least 5 years behind PSU. The historic 24 recruiting class they have coming in this year followed by Duke, Desmond, and Henckel in the 25 class makes it impossible for anyone to close the gap in any sort of short term. Not only that, the success on the mat and in recruiting is a self-reinforcing feedback loop, so it's an exercise in futility to compare your team to them right now. The plan right now has to be "how can you start closing the gap to be competitive 5 years down the road". Maybe it's getting rid of the Brands, maybe it's not. If you get rid of them, you better have some transformational coach in place to take over, because despite being miles behind Cael, they do a good job compared to pretty much everyone else.
PSU has 7 with 2 of the 3 uncommitted living right in their back yard and training at least part time at M2, and Cael personally visiting Blaze right now.
I don't have an issue with anything you just posted...
And for the umpteenth time Brands has proven he won’t change. So we remain stuck in the hole he keeps digging deeper and deeper. Keeping Brands doesn’t fix anything.
The guy Brands should be going after with the full court press right now is Mason Gibson. Not only do you desperately need lightweights and he's a potential AA-caliber wrestler himself, the big deal here is establishing friendly relations with McCort to have any chance of getting Jax, Bassett, Miller, etc.
So I guess I’ll ask you, what has Brands done in the last 14 years that would lead you to believe he’s setting the table for 5 years from now?
I disagree. Starting with Kemerer, I think their recruiting approach changed substantially. I also don't see ANY hole whatsoever. Your premise implies they are going backwards under Tom and that is just flat out laughable...
What I do see is the mountain rising with PSU constantly climbing near the top and Iowa not quite able to figure out how to climb fast enough to keep the pace, let alone catch up. Meanwhile everyone else is consistently below Iowa and may have a year or 2 where they catch or slightly pass Iowa to only either fall all the way down or be lucky enough to be caught by their safety harness quite a ways down...
Those are two very big failures.
To me, recruiting has gotten easier over the years. Through videos and a couple dozen clubs, a recruiting coordinator should really be able to hone in on 4-8 recruits each year that you want the head coach to impress that fit your need and philosophy. Then it's a matter of showing them they are important to the program and that you are committed to helping them reach their goals.
All coaches and teams should be doing the above. What separates coaches is the extra stuff. Not money but time. I just read an article from a week after nationals this year where Cael held a two day clinic on Long Island. That's the real recruiting. Recruiting for tomorrow because some future stud will probably be in those sessions and when they are a junior they are already sold.
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And he's not changing. He keeps saying he will, but doesn't. And has proven it again this offseason. and honestly, I think its just time. He's too stubborn and refuses to do what it takes. It's time to let someone else. Someone who's at least willing to TRY and catch Carl with some willingness to change. I'd go in this order:
1. DT - the bestest choice, would immediately get our recruiting to PSU levels.
2. Max Askren - He's going to Wisconsin next year and we can't let him. Pay him what he wants so that we're getting AWA AND PNL kids. I'm listening to Mitchell Mesenbrink on a podcast and he said the culture at AWA is the same at PSU
3. JB - it's probably a no, but at least kick the tires
Now... the less sexy candidates that are at least up-to-date on wrestling in today's world.
1. Tony Robie - he's doing an excellent job at a not-blue blood spot
2. Neil Erisman - is going to work his freaking tail off
3. Pat Pop - seems to suffer from the late season swoon, so i'm less bullish on him than in years past
4. Frank Molinaro - from the PSU system, is doing a pretty good job as an assistant at ASU
5. Ayres - recruited REALLY WELL at a hard school, understands how to lighten the load.
6. Schwab - first and only hawk I would put on this list - only because I trust his assistants. Still a little too attached to how hard/intense everything has to be.
I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they should be looking for a change, but my point was that if you're going to go in a different direction, it better be the next generational coach if you want to even start to get closer. Making a change just because the Brands are falling behind Cael when everyone else is, too, doesn't make a lot of sense and will put you further behind the 8-ball, and pumping the brakes on change just for change's sake because you're realistic about the current environment relative to Penn State is not "rolling over and taking it from them". You need a much more level headed approach.
DT is the one potential game-changer that I see out there. DT bringing with him Nolf and onboarding Spencer into a bigger role is probably the best anyone could do to radically change the landscape. The Askrens are close to that, too, although I think you'd want both of them. Just Max probably isn't as transformational. AWA and PSU have the same culture and approach to training and competing. Seboldt and Iowa do, too. And it's easy to see the direction each cohort is going in right now as training and sports are modernized and adapted to the current generation. I haven't seen anything to indicate that those guys are looking to leave their current jobs, though.
Max Askren would be a really nice second choice behind DT. Ben doesn't seem that cut out for D1 coaching, but I think Max has the right temperament and is a fantastic technician.
Max will be transformational because of who he will bring to the coaching staff/RTC (Keck, O'Toole) and the fact that the training would change. We'd actually, you know, be competent in today's wrestling world.
do you think it is important to the best of the best recruits that iowa is able to stay within the top 4
its great for fans...but i just don't think grinding out 3rd place finishes at nationals is as important as feat as some make it, as it relates to recruiting
I can agree with most of that. However 14 years of letdowns has slanted my head quite a bit.
I get what you're saying but you're assuming there's a guy out there now that can do it better. I don't think there is. Wrestling seems to be dynasty prone and I think since Iowa had arguably the first ( I guess Oklahoma State sort of had one but I think they had more runs than a dynasty if I'm not wrong) and that has made the fanbase restless when they're not challenging.
Look at when Gable left, Iowa won 3 titles in the next three years then had an 8 year gap until they won three in a row under Brands. Then they were 3,3,4,4,2,5,4,3,4, No final, 1, 3,2, and 5. And that five might be 2 without the unexpected loss of the guys caught up in the gambling issue.
And as MSU said, who does better? So Iowa doesn't lose those people they still are back in the crowd. When these dynasties happen, everyone battles for what's left. It doesn't mean you don't try to get better, but you also don't help yourself by making rash decisions.
I know I was hard on you about your take on a completely different topic, but this is a GREAT redemption post. Very well stated!
Dude. stop. you just want Brands to stay.
So while the dynasty may continue (until DT comes) - We are not ALWAYS the 2nd best team at NCAAs. and we consistently have the same issues to keep us from being that. And here's the bigger issue - we're losing ground. The 2023 recruiting class lost Chittum, Jesuroga and we have a part timer in Kueter. 2024, 1 guy, 2025 1 guy. It's bleaker now than ever.
Compound that with the fact that, training-wise and mentality-wise - Tom refuses to change. It's time to give someone else a shot.
Iowa is the best job in the entire world not named “Penn State”. I refuse to believe there isn’t someone out there who can’t recruit and develop and a higher level, who also has positive relationships with the best clubs in the country.
I'm fairly confident that Cael could hold his own with other coaches, and yes Iowa might not be the second best every year but They're right in the pack. I don't see any clear number 2. I'd have to go back and check Gable's years, but was there a clear second place team then? When dynasties happen the team at the top seems to suck up all the recruits, mainly because they're the obvious top team. Until something knocks off the top team like retirement or some huge earth shaking scandal, it doesn't change.Dude. stop. you just want Brands to stay.
So while the dynasty may continue (until DT comes) - We are not ALWAYS the 2nd best team at NCAAs. and we consistently have the same issues to keep us from being that. And here's the bigger issue - we're losing ground. The 2023 recruiting class lost Chittum, Jesuroga and we have a part timer in Kueter. 2024, 1 guy, 2025 1 guy. It's bleaker now than ever.
Compound that with the fact that, training-wise and mentality-wise - Tom refuses to change. It's time to give someone else a shot.
You are saying they are the best job, do most people think so? OSU has great resources too. Cornell has some handicap with Ivy league restrictions, but that seems like a good job too. A fan base IMO over estimates their appeal as a coaching decision. I see this with PSU football and even worse with Notre Dame football. Past history is something the fan base loves, but it doesn't always equate to making it a better destination.
The argument of 'nobody out there does better aside from PSU' is flawed in that it does not compare apples to apples. Tom Brands is driving a Ferrari (pun intended) and almost everyone else are riding horses. Some of those cowboys are still beating our Ferrari fairly often because Tom can't drive as good.
DT talks potential coaching career @ 9:25 mark.
Notable quote: “I love being at Penn st. and I don’t see myself going anywhere else.”
So, you’re saying a new paint job and tires aren’t going to help Tom drive more gooder?
Tom is head and shoulders above Troy Sunderland but many of us at PSU could have written these posts in 2009. Knowing what needed to be done but not knowing whether the administration cared enough to be curious. I feel for you guys. Nobody has more passion for the history than the fans.Dude. stop. you just want Brands to stay.
So while the dynasty may continue (until DT comes) - We are not ALWAYS the 2nd best team at NCAAs. and we consistently have the same issues to keep us from being that. And here's the bigger issue - we're losing ground. The 2023 recruiting class lost Chittum, Jesuroga and we have a part timer in Kueter. 2024, 1 guy, 2025 1 guy. It's bleaker now than ever.
Compound that with the fact that, training-wise and mentality-wise - Tom refuses to change. It's time to give someone else a shot.
That's what I got out of it as well. Not State College but Penn State. There is a difference.
Gotta throw the brinks truck at him!
I’d throw the money at Ben Askren. Midwest guy, amazing development, and top tier senior level talent he can draw in.
Funny thing, from what I recall Curley didn't return Sanderson's first call. Cheap bastard. I believe they thought he was trying to use PSU for leverage for a salary increase.
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