IF, the NCAA should decide to change from the current position not sure how upset the army or the navy or the air force would be. The institution involved could always realocate its scholarship dollars or the athlete could go to his or her second college choice or just not take the scholarship. Since I am not the one advocating any change one way or the other and you are justifying what PS is currently doing think it may be your "partisanship" that is showing. Not my rule not my decision.
PSU scholarships
- Thread starter sadiehawkins
- Start date
Yea, right! I'm an idiot because of what the NCAA might be looking at changing. Least i don't call people names for saying things that are actually taking place. Not up to me and i really don't care...just stating a fact...so if that makes me an idiot, so be it.
If you really get that upset and can't handle someone simply stating a fact maybe you should go back to your PS forum and stay off ours. I never said PS was doing anything ilegal or even unethical...just that the situation was being looked at.....relax and get over it.
From your message 40 in this thread:
"And in very specific instances that would not be counted as a part of the athetic scholarship total, however, in all other instances it would/Should be. Plus, in the case of an ROTC scholarship which is not classified as falling under those academic aid guidelines it would/should be counted as part of the total athletic aid if that wrestler was being recruited by that institution. Pretty sure the NCAA is looking into that abuse and most likely it will be made to be counted."
When you say "would/should be" you are pretty much advocating. Not to mention when you call something "abuse," it sure makes it sound as though you have a pretty strong opinion on it.
All in this thread, you have said the NCAA "is", "should be" and "probably is" looking at this. I wish you'd make up your mind.
Although these numbers are likely very inflated (the correction of which would leave more in the bank to spread around), your brief hypothetical makes this discussion moot. This is a reasonable representation of how 9.9 can be spread out to build a championship lineup.
The limitations of this was demonstrated last year when PSU HWT went down and they didn't have a competent backup. Think the best collegiate upper weight in history can't attract a 2-deep at 285, or the money wasn't there to fill the cupboard?
I have no love for PSU, but this discussion would make one wonder how anyone who isn't on a full ride could afford to go to college. Last I checked classrooms are full without relying on kids on full scholarship.
Omg, give it a rest...yes, WOULD it be changed and SHOULD it be changed and looking into it as is it an abuse of the current regulations regarding how aid is counted. All factual. Not once did i acuse PS or any institution of abuse or that they should be. Ok, i was lazy and did say that I did not know of any schools doing this....i was wrong and no i did not take the time to look it up because i really don't care who is or who isn't. Just that it's being looked at. If it being looked at offends you don't kill the messenger take it up with the NCAA.
"If you really get that upset and can't handle someone simply stating a fact maybe you should go back to your PS forum and stay off ours. I never said PS was doing anything ilegal or even unethical...just that the situation was being looked at.....relax and get over it."
That is a good point. I don't think the HS wrestling scene had the detailed rankings and results based on so many prestigious national tournament results back then. Ironman and BOE didn't start until sometime in the '90's. Fargo was around, but today's indepth p4p rankings simply didn't exist in Gable's coaching days.
Try understanding the point here dude.
Back in the day, the kids Gable decided to recruit, regardless of ranking, generally came to him with or without schollie money? True or not true?
Recruiting rankings are subjective in wrestling as they are in any sport and have nothing to do with this debate. In Gable's eyes, he got the kids he felt were the best; regardless of recruit ranking. Dan himself says that. It's the same thing now for Sanderson.
The underlying tone here in my opinion with you is you believing Sanderson's success has mostly just to do with the recruits he gets. You'd be wrong if that's what you think. Again, as has been pointed out in this thread, there's a reason top kids go to Sanderson--with or without schollie $$$$. And once they get there, they are developed incredibly well--they just don't stay the same. Agree or disagree?
Try getting past your envy. Give the man his due.
Tens of thousands of students do it every year. It can't be that big of a mystery.
Be prepared, Cael coached elsewhere and didn't get as high level of recruits and didn't achieve at the level that he is now. His development skills are greatly enhanced by the level of individual that he is developing.
So what's your point? He's not as good a coach as many think?
Sanderson spent 3 short years at ISU, and inherited a program that had been mediocre when he took it over as the guru known as Bobby Douglas was the face of that program when he was given the reins. All things considered, in his 3 years there, he had ISU moving in the right way in a strong way.
We can agree to disagree, but I think Cael Sanderson and his staff are the best staff in America from a development standpoint. Sorry if that opinion upsets you. And yes, they happen to also reside in a fabulous hotbed of recruiting talent. Couple those two things together and you have a dynasty of a wrestling program--which PSU currently is.
Yep. That's it. You got it.
I suppose maybe Cael ask Gable how he was able to do it and Cael just implemented the Gable plan but included the fun aspect.
In addition, most wrestlers stay at school year round to take some summer school and working out with the team. Each state has different rules about how long you need to live in a state full time to become a resident. They become state residents as fast as possible. This allows them to pay in-state tuition after the first year or so. Which helps reduce the out-of-pocket cost for kids getting partial schollies. Some schools reduce kids percentages to reflect the cost change. So many of these kids are told how much there parents will be responsible for to attend a school. They may get a bigger scholly percentage as a freshman than they do as an upper classmen. The support by wealthy boosters after these kids leave the program is huge. They get jobs and/or gifts to help pay off or pay down their school loans.
Then why'd he leave ISU for PSU? Oh right, the recruiting aspect. All the development in the world at ISU wasn't going to get that school 6 titles in 7 years.
No one on here is saying that Bael is total garbage at developing wrestlers. We're saying that Bael's team accomplishments at PSU are directly a result of the recruiting advantage he has there. We know that because (i) you can compare his track record (literally, his immediate results) at PSU vs those at ISU and (ii) Bael said as much in stating why he left ISU to go to PSU.
That concept is non-controversial.
Bottom line. You seem envious about Sanderson and his success, thus the reference by you to his name. I still think he's the best wrestling coach in America and develops talent better than does anything; as much as you and others might want to be in denial. That's not a knock on Brands because I think he's America's #2 wrestling coach.
Perhaps Sanderson reviewed his coaching style and modified it as time progressed since departing ISU. it's a common trait in coaching to adapt coaching different coaching styles over time. Heck most coaches (especially the successful ones) will change their style of coaching based on the needs and nature of the individual wrestler.
Hasn't the Brands openly admitted and much to their credit and the future of the Hawkeye program that they are changing their approach to the recruiting facet of college coaching? Change happens.
It's not envy; it's dislike. I will never root for a single thing Bael does. I haven't like him since he was in college. I'm consistent.
I was not nearly as critical of Smith when Okie State was on top. I was vehemently critical of Hendricks at the time.
The real bottom line is that Bael, knowing he'd never develop into top dog while at ISU, tucked his tail between his legs and ran off to PA. He essentially said as much.
Tens of thousands of students do not pass up free rides to instead pay their own way every year.
Sure change happens. EVERY coach in EVERY sport has always done that. Whether it be sports or business, you don't change, you die. But again, your point is? I am talking present day, and frankly, over the past several years now in the world of collegiate wrestling Sanderson has been the best. Disagree?
As for Brands, I am damn glad as are most Hawk fans that there seems to be a shift in recruiting tactic. You have to go after the big guns if you want championships.
In basketball, Coach K at Duke refused to recruit the one-and-done to the NBA talented players until about 5 years ago. He then decided that to continue to compete for national titles, he needed to and he did.
Certainly not for heavyweights. In 12 years of coaching Cael only has 3 AA's, 8,6,5.
Envy...dislike...jealousy.....resent guys who have success.......whatever is your issue is yours to have. In the end of the day, it's all about people's opinions. You don't think Sanderson is deserving. I, along with a hell of a lot of college wrestling world followers, disagree with you.
Totally agreed. PSU is in my family for generations so the fact that my son wanted to go there (he is a junior) was not even a question. Not playing sports so I am paying for it. 100 %.
What people mistake about PSU is that it isn't as EASY to get award money as some other schools (my view), but of course you can if you are a top student as some of the wrestlers are. My daughter just graduated from ASU last year so we payed out of state tuition...because that is where she wanted to go. Cost more than PSU.
100 % of both. Am I dumb? Maybe, but I figured that if my kids got to go where they really wanted, they would do better, so it would be worth it. Seems to be the case so far.
If I am willing to pay all that money for my kids to go where they want, how hard is it to understand that parents would be willing to pay more at one school (50 % vs full ride) if that is where their kid wanted to go AND if it might help their road to NCAA, Olympics, etc?
My son could have literally cut my costs in half by going elsewhere (because of awards), but he bleeds blue and white, so I am happy to pay. The only school he applied to where he didn't get money was PSU, but the second he got his acceptance, we were mailing it in.
You may think I'm stupid, but I'm not the only one out there that thinks this way.
My dad did the exact same thing for his 3 kids and it's worked out really well for all involved.
Can you tell me what Brands record was his last year at Va Tech was before he tucked his tail between his legs and ran to Iowa? Every coach goes where they think their opportunity to win is greater. You just refuse to admit that Cael is great at coaching. Joseph and Bo don't knock off two timers by playing dodgeball. You don't like Cael, we get it. But the guy can coach and the rest of the wrestling world knows it except certain little echo chambers. In thia tournament PSU won 9 matches when they were the lower seed and only lost one when they were the higher seed. Cael gets his team prepared better to perform under the big lights better than any other coach right now. You can argue recruiting all you want but that is not the whole story and you will find out soon enough when you're big guns arrive. Mainelli was ranked higher than Joseph p4p. Lets see him win 165 as redshirt freshman just like Joseph...
What's your argument here re: Brands? VaTech would have been a perennial contender with Brands on staff. He recruited 3 future NCAA finalists to VaTech in a single class.
The difference is, of course, that everyone knew Brands would take the Iowa job in a heartbeat if offered. It's his alma mater and a top tier program.
Bael, OTOH, forced out his own coach, and then proceeded to destroy his alma mater because he couldn't get it done at a top tier program. Who needs enemies when ISU has friends like that.
Btw, nobody is saying recruiting is the whole story. We're ALL saying it's a gigantic part of it though, which you seem unwilling to concede.
Again please tell me Brands record his final year at VaTech. He did a pretty good job of eviscerating that program by taking the wrestlers with him. Of course recruting is a huge part...so is coaching which you refuse to admit Cael can do. Again look at the stats I gave you about lower seeds winning. Again lets see if Marinelli wins 165 next year since he is a higher ranked p4p than Joseph. You can't have your arguments both ways. As much as it bothers you Cael changed wrestling and Iowa is playing catch up. In fact you will have to catch Ohio State first before worrying about PSU.
Sanderson was the top assistant, top recruiter and right hand man for Douglas before he was actually the head coach so keep that in mind with your talk about what kind of program he inherited. Sure Sanderson can coach, obviously he is very good, one of the best. His brother and Cunningham are probably right there with him. I don't think there is any way you can say they are the best at development when they are working with top 5 to top 10 overall recruits at most every weight to start with. They may very well be but it is hard to prove it when the starting talent they have is on average so much higher than the field. Bottom line is Sanderson likes to win, how much ISU was willing to pay him was not relevant because he likes to win so much that not being better than Iowa and Brands when he was at ISU was driving him nuts. He will do whatever it takes to win, the aw shucks calm demeanor is for show. He has an gigantic ego and he loves to win, most good ones do. He saw PSU and the resources from support to regional talent as the fastest and best shot to win.
I have no idea what Brands' record was his last year at VaTech. I'm sure it was terrible. How is that relevant? He went to a bad program and instantly raised its profile. He didn't "eviscerate" VaTech. Get real. A few wrestlers left VaTech who would have never been there in the first place if Brands weren't the coach -- a fact that was lost on the VaTech administrators at the time. ISU took the high road, which I agreed with, and released the wrestlers who followed Bael, as they should have.
Why'd Bael leave ISU, a premier top-tier program in the first place? For the recruiting, period. He even said as much. He knew he'd never be able to compete there. Brands just went back to his personal ISU.
Bingo.
Why do you think Bael took Andrew Long in 2011? It was the only way he was going to win nationals the year they were in PA.
There seems to be this recurring theme that Cael was not successful at ISU. In 3 years he won 3 conference titles, finished 2,5, 3 at nationals, qualified all 30 of his wrestlers for nationals and won a coach of the year award. Compare that to Brands over the last 3 years.
Last edited:
If he was so successful, at his own alma mater no less, why'd he run off with his tail between his legs to PSU?
To some extent that's not just a rhetorical question.
He was successful there. ISU as a program was successful during the time he was coaching there as assistant or head coach. ISU was a top end program then, not mediocre.
He was 1-16 in duals while his first year recruits were redshirting...and actually lost a dual -1 to 44....
Because he wanted to make your life hell. It's obvious your hate for him has you blinded as to how good he really is despite all the facts that are getting presented to you. Go back to his press conferance and the answer is there...He wanted a dynasty and now he has one.
Yes, I've already agreed with you that Bael ran away from ISU with his tail between his legs in order to exploit recruiting advantages at PSU. That, along with questionably taking Andrew Long to get a title in 2011, has led to some very successful years at PSU.
