English was also an All American. Rossel, it really is amazing how every post you make about Penn State is inaccurate and filled with rationalizations. You are a case study in defense mechanisms.
Three Team Race
- Thread starter Azchief32
- Start date
IMO it isn't about turning lower ranked kids into champions, it's about making sure the top recruits meet their expectations. Last year's Iowa Senior class's problem wasn't that TnT didn't develop lower kids; the problem was top level talent didn't live up to its potential.
I think that's a rare point of agreement between Penn State and Iowa fans: Cael is a better recruiter than Brands and Penn State is a more desirable destination nowadays for elite high school wrestlers.
I happen to think that not winning championships with a roster full of lesser talent might not be a strong argument for Tom Brands being a better coach than Sanderson. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.
iowa is the only team to finish in the top 4 in each of the last 9 years, since tnt took over they have had more aa's than anyone else. I think it is fantastic that we are disappointed with this and so are they.
Agree with all that you have posted above - no doubt.
I think the issue always seems to be with this discussion is that we are really discussing two separate topics (1) Coaching ability - which is usually equated with wrestler development & (2) recruiting the amount of talent needed to win a NC in the current NCAA landscape.
Generally these topics - which really are different - get muddled by those with fogged up, colored glasses.
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Cael got a hell of a lot better at recruiting once he got to PSU. Which is easier for Cael, pitching multiple PA studs to come wrestle for him in Ames or 50 miles away in PA?
Same thing applies to Brands when he got to Iowa even though he convinced a guy like Metcalf and others to come to Va Tech.
There are only about 20 or 30 competitive D1 teams. Finishing in the top-4, for a school that has had the elite status of Iowa for decades, is not impressive. I wasn't aware of the AA count; but my guess is that isn't true over, say, just the last five years.
I think there are many points of agreement between PSU and Iowa fans. But I don't think the two assertions you threw out are among them. A reasonable argument could be made that Cael has had a recent recruiting advantage b/c Pennsylvania has been relatively richer in talent than Iowa. Does that make him a better recruiter? He wasn't a better recruiter when he was at ISU. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I'll concede that, in many instances, Pennsylvania kids favor PSU over Iowa just as Iowa kids favor Iowa over PSU. If you want to draw the conclusion that this makes Cael a superior recruiter and PSU a more desirable location for wrestlers everywhere, go ahead and believe it.
Recruiting is a HUGE part of coaching. Brands is a great coach and a good recruiter by my estimation. Cael seems to be a great coach and a great recruiter. We can all talk about our lower rated guys over performing, but that and $.50 won't buy an ice cream cone in Carver. It seems like Iowa recruiting is trending up with the addition of M*. It really boils down to high school wrestling in our state right now. We need more elite high school kids being developed which will feed Iowa first and foremost and also help ISU and UNI. The private clubs will help imo. I'm not ready to mail in national titles in the future just yet. Gilman have any younger brothers? 2 of him every year would be a good start.
Thanks for your kind words on the other board. This goes directly to the "ran out of Iowa" comment...Imagine being Cael, legend, four timer and just handed the reigns of your alma mater with very good results...you are a step above your main in state rival and the future is looking bright. That is until Brands comes to Iowa and starts to dominate you and every one else in just two seasons. Not only do you have to compete with this, you also have Okie State and Minne in your backyard. All of a sudden, a job in the best high school state opens up at a big time University where you no longer have to compete with Brands or the ghost of Gable. The state was too small for the both of them and Cael walked. FYI...he made a great choice.
I never get an answer but I'll ask again PSU fans...would Cael have left ISU had he won just one championship?
Cael is and has been a great coach. Bill Bellicheck is a great coach too...it sure as shit doesn't hurt that he has Tom Brady.
Not a PSU fan but as an ISU season ticket holder I will say yes. Cael couldn't turn down the larger pay check and I'm sure what seemed to him a certain dynasty. PSU is "THE JOB" when you look at high school talent and facilities. ISU does not give the program nearly the amount of support the people out there give PSU wrestling. Cael's best chance for a title was the year after he left when Long, Reader, Varner, and Z were all still there. He already had a DT commit and Matt Brown was on his way back the following year. Only Cael knows for certain what he would have done, so our views are pure speculation. Would Brands have come back to Iowa for less money if he had won a title at VaTech? I have no idea what actually lead to Cael leaving, but I have been told that he wasn't best buddies with Pollard. It sure left ISU reeling to say the least. Can any coach bring ISU back to where they were when Cael left? It isn't looking too promising.
Not sure what Coach can bring ISU from death...............but Queso can tell you who CAN'T get the job done.
I'd say absolutely not. VA Tech has been respectable since Tom built it up in his short time there, so I think he left a solid legacy at VA Tech. That said, VA Tech will never be remotely close to the kind of program Iowa has been, is, and will continue to be. Plus, and probably more importantly, Tom is a Hawkeye through and through. No way he would have stayed at VA Tech, IMO, even if he'd won a title there. As for money, I don't think that would have been a factor. Furthermore, I can't imagine VA Tech ever offering more than Iowa, so I wouldn't say the scenario of VA Tech offering more is a realistic possibility. That said, you can't buy Tom's loyalty. Evidently, you can buy Cael's.
Ill ask a different question....If brands (includes Terry) doesnt come back to Iowa when he/they did or at all does Cael leave ISU? My answer probably not. It might be semantics but that to me doesnt mean "run out of iowa" just means your options to succeed were better in a different location.
I will also ask another question for those in the know. What has ISU done since Cael left to facilities, grown the budget, etc that show their dedication to the sport? Not flaming, asking a serious question as I dont know, but the answer would figure into this "run out of Iowa" dialogue.
If Cael stays at ISU then PSU hires Brands and PSU wins 4 out of the last 5 titles.
Did Tom take less money from Iowa?
2 facts about Cael: 1.He has no loyalty. 2.He put up a curtain to prevent fans from watching a wrestling meet. That tells me Cael is all about Cael. Brands, Gable, Smith, and many other coaches would never do that. I would hate to have the future of wrestling in Cael's hands.
Disagree. He's a good coach and a great recruiter in the optimum location for recruiting.
TnT are great coaches who are good to descent recruiters in a good location for recruiting.
Don't believe me? Just look at the recruiting stats that have been posted on here comparing the high school ranking recruits.
Which is it? On one post(93) you guys say he is not the best recruiter and another he is not the best coach. Who won 4 out of the last 5 championships? Maybe it is the water in Pa.
Was Gable winning championships with walk ons? Anyone want to post his recruiting class rankings?
It does not really matter to me as long as Cael keeps doing what he is doing.
As a matter of fact, Gable was winning titles with walk-ons, haha.
Penrith was a walk-on. That's only off the top of my head.
Dunk, I guess what irks me is this: Over the years, I have read so many posts of how PA is just dominate in high school wrestling but your brethren get pissed off when we attribute a lot of Cael's success to this factor. If this were basketball, one side of the McDonald's All American game would come from one state. Guess what? Tom Brands became a hell of a lot better recruiter going from Va Tech to Iowa. Difference between the two is that Brands came home. Cael left his home. I don't know what he got paid, I don't know about the loyalty thing, or what happened between him and Bobby D...I just know that he had to have a hell of a good reason, unless you guys think Cael was secretly wearing JoePa boxers to sleep in at night and was pining for the day that he could finally live in Happy Valley.
Also, its no coincidence that the shovel ready guys have come out of only a few clubs in PA. If I were you guys, I would have an ongoing shipment of Yuengling being sent to Jody Strittmatter and his staff. Some of those guys step into the room ready to AA. I firmly believe Kem would AA this year at 149 if given the chance. The groundwork was lad before he got here...it's Tom's job to put the finishing touches.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but have personal knowledge on this subject and I think this is more of an outsider's view on this.
The club scene has been going on for a long while and the powers rotate. No disrespect to Strittmatter as he is a great club coach and runs a great program. But there are a ton of great club coaches in PA - that is why the HS wrestling is so deep. A great benefit of having so many D1 programs in the state, so many top end guys stick around and get involved in the sport.
The Young Guns crew that just came through was full of kids that were national level before YG came into power. Quest, All American, etc. had those kids and they were great long before YG. I know this personally as my kid wrestled on more than one team with Shields, Maruca, Joseph, Kemerer, Pletcher, Headlee, Lee, Solomon, etc. Had Krivus and company from All American come across state to our youth tournament and lay waste in fifth grade.
Malvern in eastern PA coming on right now with a bunch of great kids in the room. The good kids tend to migrate to one spot because of the partners. This has a lot to do with them being "shovel ready." Five years from now when you check on it there will be another few clubs that have burst onto the scene. Young Guns gets a lot of pub right now because they arrived with a good crew just at the time wrestling information and exposure was exploding (well, for wrestling) across the internet - mostly because of FLO.
Again, this is no disrespect to Young Guns and Strittmatter. Tremendous club. But to use an analogy you guys might understand, PSU didn't come and reinvent the wheel when it comes to college wrestling 5 years ago.
Penrith was an NCAA champion and should have won a second. Don't know Gables recruiting class rankings, but I do know that rankings did't mean a whole lot to him. Your Kale seems to rely soley on what rankers post.
How can you even post this and even conceive you'd be taken seriously from here on out. You've lost all credibility and just confirmed I've been corresponding with an imbecile. Done.
Thanks for backing this with an overwhelming amount of data. What do you expect -- for Cael to intentionally forgo the best talent he can attract just so he can prove he can coach guys up?
I don't fault Cael for leaving, and have never ripped him. That being said, the situations are not even remotely comparable.
Bottom line is that Cael is winning NCAA titles and the Hawks have not won during the past 5 years. Tom had a great chance to win a team title last year but for whatever reason his seniors seemed to have peaked after their soph/jr years. This is the only concern I have with Coach Brands at this time........why aren't his seniors continuing to develop and wrestling their best when competing at Nationals?? This is a strength that Gable always's had and one that Cael continues to develop. I'm still hopeful the Hawks push for the team title this year and that our juniors/seniors wrestle to their ability. Hawks have had a soft schedule so far this year so I honestly don't know what to expect from the upperclassmen at tourney time.........Big Ten tourney should shed some light on how good the Hawks actually are this year. If they are in a close race for the NCAA team title and not a distant 2nd or 3rd then I will believe that coach Brands has the team on the right path again.
First let me say that I have never called Cael disloyal and nobody knows but him on why he left ISU, maybe him and Pollard could not get along or maybe he said F it and knew he could thrive at PSU.
With that being said you are a clueless assclown to try and tie Gable to Cael in this Loyalty thing. Had Harold Nichols stepped aside after Gable was done with his international career and let Gable take over I am sure he would have taken the ISU job in a second and ISU would have all those titles right now. But Nichols didn't step away for Gable to take over. Kurdelmeier on the other hand knew the potential for Iowa if he could get Gable there and as soon as he did he let Gable take over I believe 4 years later. Nichols on the other hand coached until the mid 80's. Now STFU!
I dont blame Cael for leaving ISU. Pollard wasnt going to up the wrestling budget to help Cael beat Iowa. That and Cael sees the upcoming next 5 years of recruits coming out of PA. PA recruiting has been silly good.
AZ Cheif said it best. Its funny PSU fan brags from the mountain top how dominate the PA high school recruits are and how its the place to pull kids from. Then comes back and wont admit that maybe Caels great coaching is 80% recruiting. Its part of recruiting yes but Cael took the goldmine path of less resistance. Good for him but fact still remains he has a gold nipple feeding him and he turned his back on his own alma mater after they canned Bobby D to give him the head job because they feared Cael my take the Ohio St job to become a head coach. I dont blame ISU for fear of losing an ast like Cael at the time. But that ISU loyalty want paid back by Cael.
The Gable to Iowa is hilarious. ISU wasnt going to fire a legendary coach in Dr Nichols who wasnt even close to retiring. Gable went to Iowa to train with Kurdelmier to get different coaching becasue Kurdlemier was all about conditioning and it intrigued Dan. Gable was an Iowan and got the job offered to him dispite J Robinson thinking it was suppose to go to him on the same staff.. Its not like he moved states for it. Basically Schwab did what Gable did, took a head coaching job instate that was available because Brands wasnt going anywhere. Thats the difference. Cael was already a head coach at an all time great wrestling program.
Some of you PSU fans need to read up on ISU's wrestling history becasue many of you seem to treat them like they are nothing in the history of this sport. You act like Cael left some rinky dink D3 program that had no chance at anything. Its amazing really, but then again its hard to know about ISU when you just picked the sport up 5 years ago. Thats why you bring up Gable leaving ISU because your to dense to even understand how great Dr. Nichols was.
Simple fact is if Sunderland recruited like Cael. He would have won 4 out of the last 5 titles. Hell so would have Minkel
AZ Cheif said it best. Its funny PSU fan brags from the mountain top how dominate the PA high school recruits are and how its the place to pull kids from. Then comes back and wont admit that maybe Caels great coaching is 80% recruiting. Its part of recruiting yes but Cael took the goldmine path of less resistance. Good for him but fact still remains he has a gold nipple feeding him and he turned his back on his own alma mater after they canned Bobby D to give him the head job because they feared Cael my take the Ohio St job to become a head coach. I dont blame ISU for fear of losing an ast like Cael at the time. But that ISU loyalty want paid back by Cael.
The Gable to Iowa is hilarious. ISU wasnt going to fire a legendary coach in Dr Nichols who wasnt even close to retiring. Gable went to Iowa to train with Kurdelmier to get different coaching becasue Kurdlemier was all about conditioning and it intrigued Dan. Gable was an Iowan and got the job offered to him dispite J Robinson thinking it was suppose to go to him on the same staff.. Its not like he moved states for it. Basically Schwab did what Gable did, took a head coaching job instate that was available because Brands wasnt going anywhere. Thats the difference. Cael was already a head coach at an all time great wrestling program.
Some of you PSU fans need to read up on ISU's wrestling history becasue many of you seem to treat them like they are nothing in the history of this sport. You act like Cael left some rinky dink D3 program that had no chance at anything. Its amazing really, but then again its hard to know about ISU when you just picked the sport up 5 years ago. Thats why you bring up Gable leaving ISU because your to dense to even understand how great Dr. Nichols was.
Simple fact is if Sunderland recruited like Cael. He would have won 4 out of the last 5 titles. Hell so would have Minkel
I have kinda heard that a lot of people at ISU thought Gable was not going to be a good coach. They did not have the vision that Iowa did.
It is also pretty well known that Gable did not do much recruiting early in his career. He started to do a little more recruiting when he had a lul in championships in the late 80s, but I still am not sure he had any #1 classes I think PSU and OSU got a lot better recruiting classes than Iowa.
It is also pretty well known that Gable did not do much recruiting early in his career. He started to do a little more recruiting when he had a lul in championships in the late 80s, but I still am not sure he had any #1 classes I think PSU and OSU got a lot better recruiting classes than Iowa.
To be fair, Parkinson's can affect mentation, although it far more commonly affects motor skills.
