Three Team Race

[nitlion6]

Jeez...are you slow or something or is being pissy just your thing. You guys cannot even take a compliment and are very selective in how you read things. I don't know how many times I have to say it so Ima bust an all caps on your dumbass...CAEL CAN COACH! He's one of the best in the business. I've said it numerous times on here and spoke glowingly of him. Jeez:

PSU guy: "Cael is the best ever and literally has his name tattooed on Tom Brand's ass...completely owns him.

Iowa guy: "Well, Tom's name was on Cael's first when he was at ISU...may be a bit faded though."

PSU guy: "But you Hawkeye fans love living in the past with your boring old style, and yappy little coach who jumps around in the corner and teaches his guys to wrestle dirty. Cael has completely changed the paradigm and is turning the wrestling world on its ear. His wrestlers are dominate, athletic, and aggressive on a level never seen in the sport."

Iowa guy: "It helps that he is a great recruiter and resides smack dab in the middle of some of the best talent in the U.S. You guys always brag about this fact."

PSU guy: "Haters!!! OMG, they just said Cael can't coach." Wanders off to find his safe space.

Nice post.
The crap or something will still surface, but this was a really good post.
Might be slow, wasn't trying to be pissy. Just trying to stay on point.

As I posted in this thread. Iowa fans can and do occasionally annoy me, but I am truly happy you guys are there to annoy me. Hopefully the feeling is recipical.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I think everybody would agree with you that it takes some good coaching to get the superstuds to perform. It isn't automatic.

The point of a few Hawk fans are trying to get across is that it is easier to do well with 5* talent across the board than with 3* talent.

It is generally easier for Alabama to have a great football season than it is at Iowa. Hard to compare Kirk to Saban. Apples and oranges. Takes different talents to coach up the 3*s to perform well than it takes to make a 5* reach and maintain his potential. Kirk is pretty good at coaching up 3*s, but may miserably underperform with 5*s. Saban is great at making the 5*s happy and performing and gelling as a unit, but may not have the success and be bringing home a ton of wins at a team like Michigan St., for example. Similar argument can be made with Carl and Brands.

By the way, Saban's record was 6-5-1, 6--6, 7-5, 6-6, 9-2 while at Michigan St.

I don't necessarily agree with the sentence in bold. The super elite guys could win national championships at virtually any school. Stick a Retherford or a Nolf in the room at Drexel for a season and they'll still dominate. Metcalf knew what he had to do and did it. Tom and Terry didn't have to do much with him. He came in a monster and pretty much scorched the earth from start to finish.

No doubt that recruiting is a vital aspect of coaching, but once you land those monsters, you pretty much let them do their thing. I really don't think those super studs need much coaching at all, frankly. Not that you ignore them as their coach, but some guys are just so dang talented that there's really not much to do for them. Some guys just show up ready to win championships "out of the box". Fortunate for Cael, and to his credit, he's had quite a few of those guys over the last 5 years or so.

Looking ahead, a guy like Spencer Lee will win championships no matter who's coaching him. Now, he's focused on winning world and Olympic championships, so I do think it would help him to work with Tom and Terry to that end, so I happen to think he'd be best off at Iowa. Not surprising. But he's another example of a guy who could attend Timbuktu U and still win multiple championships. Some guys are pretty much on auto pilot. That said, the coach that was able to land them still deserves the credit. . . for landing them in the first place.

 

[dicemen99]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentence in bold. The super elite guys could win national championships at virtually any school. Stick a Retherford or a Nolf in the room at Drexel for a season and they'll still dominate. Metcalf knew what he had to do and did it. Tom and Terry didn't have to do much with him. He came in a monster and pretty much scorched the earth from start to finish.

Are you trying to say that if Retherford or Nolf committed to Drexel, they would still be dominating like they are today? Or that if Retherford or Nolf transferred to Drexel before the year started they would still be having the year that they are having?

Because one of them is wildly wrong, and the other one is uncertain conjecture.

 

[dicemen99]

Looking ahead, a guy like Spencer Lee will win championships no matter who's coaching him.

Here is another statement that really has me wondering if you pay attention to college wrestling.

 

[edquinn06]

The win that got Cooper ranked

Berger is the win that got Cooper ranked. Yes Cooper beat Lewis in the dual, but Lewis knocked Cooper out of the Midlands a few weeks after.

 

[Jackhawk87]

Who is Carl? Where does he coach?

PSU. He is so good that he deserves to have his name misspelled - much like
Steebler

 

[Cali_Nittany]

I don't necessarily agree with the sentence in bold. The super elite guys could win national championships at virtually any school. Stick a Retherford or a Nolf in the room at Drexel for a season and they'll still dominate. Metcalf knew what he had to do and did it. Tom and Terry didn't have to do much with him. He came in a monster and pretty much scorched the earth from start to finish.

You might be right about Nolf but Retherford has come a long way since his freshman year. He had an awesome ride and defense but not much offense. A redshirt year later and he is ripping guys arms off. There's probably some natural progression but I also think Cael and his assistants have coached him to be more offensive minded.

 

[nitlion6]

I think everybody would agree with you that it takes some good coaching to get the superstuds to perform. It isn't automatic.

The point of a few Hawk fans are trying to get across is that it is easier to do well with 5* talent across the board than with 3* talent.

It is generally easier for Alabama to have a great football season than it is at Iowa. Hard to compare Kirk to Saban. Apples and oranges. Takes different talents to coach up the 3*s to perform well than it takes to make a 5* reach and maintain his potential. Kirk is pretty good at coaching up 3*s, but may miserably underperform with 5*s. Saban is great at making the 5*s happy and performing and gelling as a unit, but may not have the success and be bringing home a ton of wins at a team like Michigan St., for example. Similar argument can be made with Carl and Brands.

By the way, Saban's record was 6-5-1, 6--6, 7-5, 6-6, 9-2 while at Michigan St.

Jack,
That last year was 10-2. The only 10 win season at Michigan St between 1965 and 2010. Nick's first 4 years were similar to the previous 4 years at Michigan State.
I am sure you agree that great coaches that stay great for the long haul do so by continously learning and adapting. I would imagine the Nick Saban who left Michigan State for LSU was a much better and learned coach than the one who started at Michigan State. The Cael coaching Penn State right now is almost certainly a much improved coach compared to the Cael who coached his first year at Iowa State.

I hope this next statement doesn't stir up a hornets nest because it is not meant to. Watching Iowa wrestle this year I feel as though I am watching Brands grow, learn and adapt. Brands has always said the words, "score, score", but that hasn't been the way most Hawks have wrestled recently. Of course there are exceptions like Ramos, my favorite recent Hawkeye. This year I have noticed more and more of the Iowa kids pressing the bonus point issue. As a team they are wrestling more aggressively trying to score more and more points.

 

[El-Jefe]

I tell ya one thing that would slow Cael's recruiting is an actual huge name recruiting type coach takes over Pitt and Ruthgers. Cael is owning NJ/NY as much as PA. And the occasional California kid.

This is a good theory, right up until we remember it's Pitt and Rutgers.

Rutgers will need a few years just to dig out of the AD Julie Hermann disaster. Goodall has probably increased his job security by merely not assaulting his wrestlers or pushing professors to change grades.

A rejuvenated Pitt -- also years away -- would be more likely to keep Ohio State, Virginia Tech, etc., from poaching as many PA kids. Pletcher, Chishko, Zavatsky, Krivus, Maruca, Shields, a few other big-name recruits from within an hour of Pitt chose to go out of state instead. For the foreseeable future, they'll continue to outrecruit and underperform relative to Edinboro.

 

[El-Jefe]

You might be right about Nolf but Retherford has come a long way since his freshman year. He had an awesome ride and defense but not much offense. A redshirt year later and he is ripping guys arms off. There's probably some natural progression but I also think Cael and his assistants have coached him to be more offensive minded.

Zain has improved his technique, but one huge difference (pardon the pun) has been a year in the weight room.

He was an undersized 138 as a high school senior. Weighed in at 133 at states, admitted he could've gone 132 without trying and 126 if he wanted to. Then he immediately jumped into the fire as an undersized true freshman college 141 with a little bit more than 133-lb high school boy strength.

Now he's a full-blown 149 with college man strength.

 

[nitlion6]

Answering the original topic in this thread.
I do believe Penn State prevails as the team champion and Iowa finishes second. No matter how I work it I have a tough time figuring any way for Okie State to finish ahead of both the Nits and the Hawks.
I also looked at the Nuts from Ohio and even if they wrestled the perfect tournament I think the absolute best they could do is battle Okie State for third.

 

[MSU158]

I am as big of a fan of Metcalf as it gets, but to say he would have performed similarly at a school like Drexel is simply wrong. Metcalf benefited from being in the Iowa room an incredible amount. He was able to go with Schwab every day. As most of you remember, Schwab was the best guy around his weight in the country and one of the best in the entire world.

I am sure he would have still been successful, but I do not believe he would have been nearly as dominant.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

DT did not come ready made. He was dominated by Cyler Sanderson as a true Freshman. He advanced a ton and obviously Cael taught him much. He wasn't born with that ankle pick. Ed Ruth was probably Ed Ruth anywhere. Zain Retherford has improved the fastest I have seen from any wrestler in point scoring. 2 years ago the guy won on riding time and totally reinvented himself into one of the hodge favorites. Cael seems to be able to help the elite guys become super elite. We have had so many people better that freshman year than the senior year. Evans was better than Brown early but Brown passed him up. St. John was elite imo but didn't progress his final couple years. Nick Moore went backwards.
I don't know if it is the weight cutting mentality, lack of good weight lifting, or simple burnout but PSU seems to be better at advancing guys through the career with yearly improvement than Iowa.
I also feel like this may be changing because Gilman has improved a ton this year over last. BS seems to have taken another step. Burak seems to me like he has become even better. Stoll has improved a ton. We are trending up in the improvement department, but I would argue it is where we were lacking.

 

[Annieat285]

Don't go there. This is what PSU fans do when Iowa is favored. They build them up and act like if they don't win Iowa is a bunch of losers.

Iowa has the guns to beat PSU this year. We have guys in our lineup with the ability to score bonus like Nolf & Rutherford. We have 6 guys Gilman, Clark, Sorenson, Myers, Brooks & Burak who have it in their control to be in the finals. We have another 3 Grothus, Cooper, Stoll who have it in their control to be AAs.

Get 4 or 5 guys in the finals. Win a couple of them. Get 7 or 8 AAs and I like our chances a lot. This is how we used to do it. Brands has coached teams to do this before with similar talent.

You say Iowa has guys that score bonus points like Penn State, but that isn't exactly true. As you can see via the most dominant metric created by the NCAA, Penn State produces more points per match at 7 of 10 weight classes. Also, Penn State averages at least a full point more at 6 of those 7 weights. You certainly have a number of wrestlers who could find themselves in the finals (although I think only Gilman and Sorenson will), but to count on anyone besides Gilman (especially as they get deeper into the tournament) scoring a ton of bonus points would be unrealistic.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I am as big of a fan of Metcalf as it gets, but to say he would have performed similarly at a school like Drexel is simply wrong. Metcalf benefited from being in the Iowa room an incredible amount. He was able to go with Schwab every day. As most of you remember, Schwab was the best guy around his weight in the country and one of the best in the entire world.

I am sure he would have still been successful, but I do not believe he would have been nearly as dominant.

I agree. Metcalf wrestling Doug was huge. Metcalf (like Ramos) also seemed perfect for Brands mental approach to wrestling. Gilman is another example of a guy that just wouldn't have improved as much anywhere else imo. He is perfect for Terry. I think DT and Nolf are perfect for Cael on the same level. Some guys simply fit with some coaches. Mark Perry and DSJ were both outstanding, but neither fit with the Brands quite the same. Zain would have fit with the Brands quite well.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I have always had a theory that both Mark Perry and Johnny Hendricks would have been better had they attended the opposite school. I think Brands could have taken Johnny to a level Smith simply couldn't because of style. Perry had some unique gifts as a wrestler Smith might have developed better than Brands. Am I crazy to think this? I also think those two Dardanes twins would have had great careers with Brands. Minnesota never fed them what they really needed. Brands would have had them eating nails.

 

[Jackhawk87]

Hmmm. A substantive discussion amongst the Hawk fans and reasonable and informed PSU fans??

Nice thread. I would agree with most of what has been said. I think Nolf would be great with Brands as well though.

I am sure TnT are getting better as coaches, but the main difference this year is the wrestlers themselves. Last years seniors just didn't have the mentality to buy all in. Nothing against them, they just don't have the same mentality as a Dennis, Metcalf, Ramos, or Gilman. Some had injuries throughout their careers that limited them (esp. Moore - probably somewhat similar to the Altons).

Although the coaches have their "styles", all are able to adjust pretty well. I think Carl has done a lot for his wrestlers and has definitely helped some of them become much better.

But Carl will still not reach the top of the list of best coaches until he stops insisting on getting all the top 10 wrestlers. If he wants his coaching legacy to reach the pinnacle, he should pass on a few of the top guys and let them go to Iowa. Letting Lee go to Iowa would be a nice start.

 

[RoarLions1]

Answering the original topic in this thread.
I do believe Penn State prevails as the team champion and Iowa finishes second. No matter how I work it I have a tough time figuring any way for Okie State to finish ahead of both the Nits and the Hawks.
I also looked at the Nuts from Ohio and even if they wrestled the perfect tournament I think the absolute best they could do is battle Okie State for third.

I will never use the words "team champion" for this event. It's Big Ten vs the rest, so the laurels will go to the conference when they win a majority of the duals.

Not against it, very much for it, as it's a tough dual against a solid opponent, and doesn't count as a competition date (it's a freebie, guys). Single bout format this late in the season is better, imo, than a bracketed 3 or 4 dual format just prior to Big Ten's.

 

[wasdt21]

nice post roar, you convinced me i'm in, but there will be some who will claim they are nat dual champs afterwards.

 

[DonHawkeye]

You say Iowa has guys that score bonus points like Penn State, but that isn't exactly true. As you can see via the most dominant metric created by the NCAA, Penn State produces more points per match at 7 of 10 weight classes. Also, Penn State averages at least a full point more at 6 of those 7 weights. You certainly have a number of wrestlers who could find themselves in the finals (although I think only Gilman and Sorenson will), but to count on anyone besides Gilman (especially as they get deeper into the tournament) scoring a ton of bonus points would be unrealistic.

I am counting on us scoring a lot of bonus points and putting 4 or 5 in the finals. So call me unrealistic.

I think we have the ability to do both.

 

[nitlion6]

I will never use the words "team champion" for this event. It's Big Ten vs the rest, so the laurels will go to the conference when they win a majority of the duals.

Not against it, very much for it, as it's a tough dual against a solid opponent, and doesn't count as a competition date (it's a freebie, guys). Single bout format this late in the season is better, imo, than a bracketed 3 or 4 dual format just prior to Big Ten's.

Roar,
My post was an assessment of how the different teams might do in the team race at the nationals. This thread was initiated by Chief discussing the three teams he feels are the legitimate threats to win the team title. It (my post you refetenced nor the thread's initial topic) has nothing to do B1G vs the rest dual series.

 

[rossel 33]

You say Iowa has guys that score bonus points like Penn State, but that isn't exactly true. As you can see via the most dominant metric created by the NCAA, Penn State produces more points per match at 7 of 10 weight classes. Also, Penn State averages at least a full point more at 6 of those 7 weights. You certainly have a number of wrestlers who could find themselves in the finals (although I think only Gilman and Sorenson will), but to count on anyone besides Gilman (especially as they get deeper into the tournament) scoring a ton of bonus points would be unrealistic.

---------

Nice info, Annie285. Totaling it up gives psu 312.9 and iowa 245.2. I agree that psu has an advantage in bonus pt production.

I could see Clark giving iowa significant bonus pt production, in addition to Gilman. Also, hopefully grothus' negative number is transient, an artifact of only a few matches, returning from injury and surgery. But psu looks like they're in the driver's seat right now.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I could see Burak getting some early bonus, not so much to help the team, but out of spite for PBS.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I am counting on us scoring a lot of bonus points and putting 4 or 5 in the finals. So call me unrealistic.

I think we have the ability to do both.

Don, after this years football and now the basketball team. Anything is possible. Nobody saw either one of these coming.

2 SI covers in the same athletic years. Might as well make it 3 with a picture of Brands jumping.

BTW, anyone know the last time a wrestler was on the cover of SI and who it was?

 

[LutherAce]

I believe it was Carl

 

[PSU Mike]

Don, after this years football and now the basketball team. Anything is possible. Nobody saw either one of these coming.

2 SI covers in the same athletic years. Might as well make it 3 with a picture of Brands jumping.

BTW, anyone know the last time a wrestler was on the cover of SI and who it was?

Bruce?

 

[artradley]

I am counting on us scoring a lot of bonus points and putting 4 or 5 in the finals. So call me unrealistic.

I think we have the ability to do both.

Yes, you are unrealistic.

Very unrealistic.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Yes, you are unrealistic.

Very unrealistic.

You better just stick with the political posts.

 

[ChiDoc]

Guys, BWI's Wrestling Room is still a bit of the wild west. Check out our Scout board on Fight-on-State called On The Mats. http://www.scout.com/college/penn-state/forums/2977-on-the-mats

Absolutely HILARIOUS! I literally only opened about 7 threads and these are some of the highlights from various posters on assorted topics:


On Iowa’s Schedule this year:

“Can't find the room to schedule Penn State, Ohio State or Michigan ...
But plenty of availability to make it up to Havre, Montana to face an NAIA school (Montana State Northern??), as well as their nail-biting duals vs Grand Canyon College, Iowa City Community College, Cornell College & South Dakota State.”

“Iowa will definitely win the Betty Crocker award this year, in the cup cake division.”

"Compare that to PSU, who wrestled non-conference duals in Virginia, California & New Jersey vs legitimate wrestling programs."



On defending world champion Kyle Snyder:

“I will wager a months salary that he is neither a NCAA champ nor 2016 Olympic Medalist if he even makes the team. Did he realize he will have to beat an Olympic gold medalist to make the team?”

“Johnson is going to battle whoever Ohio St throws out there.” (at heavyweight)


On Ohio State Coach Tom Ryan:

“Did Coach Ryan burn two red shirts out of desperation ?”

“No. He burned 3.”

“Tom Ryan's plan is really blowing up in his face over the last 2 weeks....the Coup de grace could be if Snyder disappoints in Rio”



Other Highlights

One poster had the nerve to imply that OSU matched up well with PSU in a dual, he simply and very innocently implied that the Buckeye's top wrestlers are at weights that aren't PSU strengths, which is obviously true, not that the Buckeyes would win, and his post was quickly one starred. Hilarious!!!

Thanks so much for the comedy of PSU's "good board."

 

[DonHawkeye]

Same morons that took over TheMat. Unreadable.

 

[wasdt21]

sounds like them pulling for an American to lose at Olympics.

 

[Chuck C]

Do they think Iowa makes the big ten schedule?

 

[ChiDoc]

Do they think Iowa makes the big ten schedule?

About half their fans on BWI literally think Jim Delaney has a conspiracy with the Football referees to make sure tOSU and Mich beat them every year (I wish I was joking).
https://bwi.forums.rivals.com/threads/officials-for-saturday.47252/

So unfortunately pointing that fact out would probably make things worse.

 

[ChiDoc]

sounds like them pulling for an American to lose at Olympics.

Wow you aren't kidding, went back to the Penn State "good board" to see their "classy" meet discussion thread, no surprise they gave absolutely no credit to NaTo for his big win, plus multiple posters were complaining about Snyder's world title:

"I could do without the constant reminders that Snyder is a world champ. He may be, but this is folkstyle and the last time he wrestled someone in a Penn State singlet, he lost."

"Did you guys know that Kyle Snyder is a world champion????!!!!

If I only had a dollar for every time they mentioned that"

And this is after the meet is wrapped up comfortably where they had a great showing. Unbelievable.

 

[sloehawk]

I am as big of a fan of Metcalf as it gets, but to say he would have performed similarly at a school like Drexel is simply wrong. Metcalf benefited from being in the Iowa room an incredible amount. He was able to go with Schwab every day. As most of you remember, Schwab was the best guy around his weight in the country and one of the best in the entire world.

I am sure he would have still been successful, but I do not believe he would have been nearly as dominant.

And yet Dustin Schlatter lost one match and won a National Championship as a True Freshman, and throttled the defending Champ twice that year if I'm not mistaken (could be). And Metcalf clearly was every bit as good as Schlatter. And a redshirting Metcalf lost by a penalty point to Senior Finalist that year in Ty Eustice, in the early season Kauffman Brand. Those are some hellish "rooms" to get those guys that good that fast......................

 

[Azchief32]

And yet Dustin Schlatter lost one match and won a National Championship as a True Freshman, and throttled the defending Champ twice that year if I'm not mistaken (could be). And Metcalf clearly was every bit as good as Schlatter. And a redshirting Metcalf lost by a penalty point to Senior Finalist that year in Ty Eustice, in the early season Kauffman Brand. Those are some hellish "rooms" to get those guys that good that fast......................

Dude...they just don't see it.

 

[Lion8286]

Wow you aren't kidding, went back to the Penn State "good board" to see their "classy" meet discussion thread, no surprise they gave absolutely no credit to NaTo for his big win, plus multiple posters were complaining about Snyder's world title:

"I could do without the constant reminders that Snyder is a world champ. He may be, but this is folkstyle and the last time he wrestled someone in a Penn State singlet, he lost."

"Did you guys know that Kyle Snyder is a world champion????!!!!

If I only had a dollar for every time they mentioned that"

And this is after the meet is wrapped up comfortably where they had a great showing. Unbelievable.

Wow! Sure glad that no one bitches and moans on this Iowa board. I mean you guys love everybody!!! And you're always fair and objective!!

 

[Azchief32]

Wow! Sure glad that no one bitches and moans on this Iowa board. I mean you guys love everybody!!! And you're always fair and objective!!

To be complaining about hyping a world champion? Seriously?

 

[Sandor45]

Holy cow, these PSU posters are annoying of late.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Wow! Sure glad that no one bitches and moans on this Iowa board. I mean you guys love everybody!!! And you're always fair and objective!!

The guy bookmarked a 4 month old ref thread. Kooky