He made first team All B1G and was the leading scorer when he left. I am not saying he deserved it but he was accomplished.
Who hates Iowa? Devyn Marble.
- Thread starter libertyhawkeye
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He made first team All B1G and was the leading scorer when he left. I am not saying he deserved it but he was accomplished.
amahawk said:
An idea would be to end this whole retired number/ jersey thing. Instead have a ring of honor with each honoree and their jersey on it. Yes, some could be the same number.
That would only solve the numbers that are available issue. It would not solve the giving recognition to someone who consistantly broke the laws by Marble did. If there are people who would absolutely cringe when they saw Marble's Jersey on that ring of honor, and there would be, then he shouldn't be there either.
An idea would be to end this whole retired number/ jersey thing. Instead have a ring of honor with each honoree and their jersey on it. Yes, some could be the same number.
That would only solve the numbers that are available issue. It would not solve the giving recognition to someone who consistantly broke the laws by Marble did. If there are people who would absolutely cringe when they saw Marble's Jersey on that ring of honor, and there would be, then he shouldn't be there either.
Why should the decision to retire a player's number be determined by the people who "would absolutely cringe when they saw Marble's jersey on that ring of honor" any more than by Roy Marble's family. Both are just emotive responses that have nothing to do with what Roy earned on the basketball court.
As for crimes, it's not like Roy was some desperado outlaw. I don't know the details of the DA, which was more than 20 years after Roy graduated, but the rag on Roy was the party drugs. Given the wave of marijuana legalization finally sweeping across the country how many people really would be bothered by Roy smoking pot or snorting coke?
I am happy for Luka. Are we talking about who scored more or who we believe is the better basketball player? I am talking about who I believe is the better basketball player. Ok, I can rest now. Thanks bobby.
Geez...Bobby! You were on a tear this morning between 10 and 10:30. Your comments don't seem make any sense though. I can't recall making a single post about the work Luka put in or saying he didn't help create better shots for his teammates. Post away...
I'm going to keep reading your responses, Bobby! You have made one worthwhile point. Your point about Luka scoring more points in fewer games than Roy is a fair point. I agree with you on that fact. I'm pulling for you. Can't wait to read more from your morning rage.
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You didn't let me down, Bobby. I stand corrected on 1st round draft picks. Ed Horton was picked late 2nd round that same year. Although, in the end, Roy did play with several more NBA draft picks in his 4 years than Luka. You don't have to think that means anything, but I think it probably resulted in Roy not scoring as many points in his career. Again, this is what I choose to believe. You don't have to believe what I do. I would feel better about myself if we didn't agree on much of anything.
Regarding what you call a stupid comparison from outset, it was not me that started with the comparisons other than to say I believe Roy was better. In my view, it isn't close. Others believe Luka was better. Some posters have made some good points to support their view. Others...not mentioning names...just aren't capable of supporting their beliefs, so they turn into "tough guys".
Drink a little less coffee tomorrow morning, Bobby. I am happy to exchange thoughts and still disagree.
i see your point and in some ways Stokes is the guy that stands out as the counter example (well frankly I have no idea who these “fab five 1950s” Bills are but whatever) but 1st team all B1G on top of scoring leader can maybe be the thing Iowa clings to if they need to defend this decision?
Well stated.
And, again, remember, Bump Elliott/the committee made the decision 32 years ago to not retire the jersey. Bump was an admirable man and had a history/reputation for making great decisions.
Bump's/the committee's decision has not been overturned for 32 years. And we can all figure out why.
As you mentioned, Barta knows why, but he obviously is not going to air the dirty laundry. Barta simply said that the bar for retiring a number is high and Roy and 2 other players from the past never reached that bar.
Tell me that you would be okay if your kids were potheads and were snorting coke and had failed rehab. Personally, I do care about the influences on society that people with low morals and illegal drug habits have on our youth. And, Roy did not earn enough on the court to have his number retired. Yes, there may be others whose number is retired that did not deserve such an honor, but you don't lower your standards because someone is butthurt. Perhaps, the only one really worthy, or maybe the most worthy, of such an honor for his accomplishments and the recognition that he has received on the court is Luka and Roy, Jr. who I will remind you wouldn't even accept Roy, Sr.'s name, used the occasion of the announcement that Luka's number would be retired to make this an issue. Really bad timing.
Roy Marble is not my child. I'm guessing his parents probably did care since Roy is the one who ****ed up Roy's life. We agree Roy should not have his jersey retired because he did not earn it on the floor, and I really liked Roy. But the honor is for basketball accomplishment, not citizenship.
Yes, there should have been no jersey retirements between Ronnie and Luka.
Don't spend any more time worrying about drug use among the young. You've long since lost that battle. We are regressing into a state of primitive savagery.
I really don't want to take the time to go back and see all the records. But I thought I read that Roy never made 1st team All B1G, never was an All American or received any National Awards for any of his 4 years. I'm probably wrong.
If the standards are just scoring then every QB that set some type of Iowa record should deserve to have his jersey retired? Most yards or most completed passes or most rushing yards in a season. Roy was one hell of an offensive player and loved by fans but that apparently doesn't mean his jersey should have been retired.
I've always thought Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did during his playing days and not for what he did during his coaching career. Probably ever person, even Presidents have made bets in their life time
JMO
If the standards are just scoring then every QB that set some type of Iowa record should deserve to have his jersey retired? Most yards or most completed passes or most rushing yards in a season. Roy was one hell of an offensive player and loved by fans but that apparently doesn't mean his jersey should have been retired.
I've always thought Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did during his playing days and not for what he did during his coaching career. Probably ever person, even Presidents have made bets in their life time
JMO
And what is sad is they are doing this during Luka’s time to shine and be congratulated. To me that’s petty and selfish. They should of put out a statement congratulating Luka and in that statement say they hope to see Roy’s jersey also hanging from the rafters celebrating his accomplishments as a Hawkeye as well.
I really don't want to take the time to go back and see all the records. But I thought I read that Roy never made 1st team All B1G, never was an All American or received any National Awards for any of his 4 years. I'm probably wrong.
If the standards are just scoring then every QB that set some type of Iowa record should deserve to have his jersey retired? Most yards or most completed passes or most rushing yards in a season. Roy was one hell of an offensive player and loved by fans but that apparently doesn't mean his jersey should have been retired.
I've always thought Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame for what he did during his playing days and not for what he did during his coaching career. Probably ever person, even Presidents have made bets in their life time
If serious, you are completely missing the point regarding why players and managers should not be gambling.
I personally think citizenship should be a factor. And apparently those who decide who is honored in this way agree.
The real question is why Greg Stokes? There were many more Hawks that had more honors then Greg but 2 players stand out among the rest, Murray Wier #3 in 1948 and Charles Darling #27 in 1952. Both players were the only Hawks that received consensus 1st team All-American honors until Luka jointed those 2 last year. I sort of get why the 54/55 members got their jerseys retired but neither team won the national title finishing 2nd.
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Again, what the hell does him betting on games when he was a manager have to do with this? They get into the Hall of Fame by what he did on the field. And didn't have to use drugs to be a great player. JMO
#Default. I get it. I see it all the time from people who can't discuss things rationally.
In the past week, I have spoke to both former Iowa and former Iowa State basketball players from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. They all said Roy Marble and Greg Stokes were better than Garza. Choose to believe me or not. I will take their opinions over yours.
I have not read all this thread to see if anyone pointed this out, but everything boils down to $$$. The UI retires numbers of whom they think will have the means to give a large gift in the future. I am a supporter of philanthropy, just not to large public universities. There are so much better causes out there to donate to.
I think this is a very good point. It is a factor. Private high schools have created distinguished alumni and athletic hall of fames at least partially for this purpose. This is good input.
He’s being a little b**ch. You’d have to be a very sensitive bed wetter to think a tribute to the best player in Iowa men’s BB history is somehow a sleight against his dad.
Oh bullshit. That would have absolutely zero bearing on anything. Go look at the biggest donors to athletics and the University. Very very few athletes.
We do not know Roy "beat up" any women. A domestic assault can result from pointing a finger at a woman in a threatening manner, and sometimes mere words or yelling. That also happened years, decades, after Roy graduated from Iowa. It's also the most fabricated crime and one exaggerated to the point of fabrication.
Obviously Roy, who was a huge man, committed a loathsome and cowardly act if choked, punched, slammed, kicked, etc... any woman at any time or place. We simply do not know that Roy did any such thing. Being accused or charged is a long long way from guilty of the acts charged.
I will add, lest I be misrepresented, that fortune has favored my practice such that I do not need to represent girl hitters/abusers and do not when a credible accusation appears.
Of course they would say that, it was their era and oddly one in which they maybe beat Iowa. Natural exaggeration comes with age. The home run went farther, the fish was bigger, the competition was better. Everyone else in the basketball world disagrees.
Everyone? Only the former players I spoke to believe Roy was better? People who never watched Roy or Stokes play are more credible than former Iowa and ISU players? Recency is less a factor than aged experience? Is this really your view?
Each of them said in different ways that it is not even close. But hey, you go ahead and invalidate their opinions in favor of your own.
I admittedly was young while stokes was playing but suggesting he was a better player than Garza is laughable regardless of who is making that ridiculous suggestion.
I felt the same way as you before I spoke to these guys. I was surprised they put Stokes above Garza. My first memories of watching Hawkeye basketball was Stokes, Payne, Hansen, Gannon, Boyle, Carfino, etc. Stokes was awesome, but I didn't realize how highly thought of he was by others. I believe he was drafted by the 76'rs. I may go see what I can find.
Again, I was also surprised by their view Stokes was better than Garza. I trust them more than my own view.
It’s laughable to say guy who was an absolute MONSTER on both ends of the floor is better than a guy who is clearly below average at one end? Seems To me the only thing laughable is your knowledge of the game. Stokes absolutely dominated on the defensive end, he averaged 2 blocks and 2 steals as a senior and still averaged 20 points that year and had a higher career fg% than Garza.....
Laughable? LMFAO! Did you forget to stipulate 6 on 6 rules?
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Did any of those guys play against Luka Garza? No, so they have no more personal knowledge of playing against Luka than I have.
If this were a disagreement over Luka being All Big Ten you'd have a better argument. But we are comparing a two time 1st Team AA, 2 time unanimous B!G PoY, possibly a national PoY, 2 time unanimous 1st Team All B!G, and the winner of half a dozen other national awards and the schools leading scorer. Roy has only the career leading scorer and none of those other accolades, and Luka even set the career record 15 games faster and with a much higher shooting percentage, even a better 3 point percentage. These are some pretty objective factors in comparing the on court careers.
When it comes to memory, recency is always better. Its actually known as the Glory Days effect. Everyone, as in almost every person on earth, tends to remember their glory days as superior to the present. Roy, Ed and BJ-and the rest of those guys, all seem better to other mid 50s guys who are remembering their own glory days as presenting tougher competition. That's like parents talking about walking 5 miles uphill in the snow to go to school.
I'm not "invalidating" their opinion, I'm disagreeing and offering the reasons that support my opinion, and those reasons are numerous vs. a handful of guys that are remembering events from more than 30 years ago. Those Clones can have their own opinions but their opinions are in opposition to not just my opinion but opinions and success metrics of almost the entire basketball world.
Stokes and Payne were both weak under pressure, Mike much more so than Greg. The NCAA collapses their Jr/Sr seasons were epically bad. Not just those two either, the whole squad played weak after Hansen/Gannon graduated and before Moe, Jones, Wright and Lorenzen arrived, then really tough when Gamble/Roy/Ed (toughest ever)/BJ arrived.
Greg wasn't really offensively diverse, more of a two trick pony but the two tricks were really really impressive, almost unstoppable when he got going. A short lefty jump hook and true turn around fall away jumper from 10-15 feet. Once isolated the defender needed to be either very large or very lucky.
You said everyone else in the basketball world disagrees with former Iowa and ISU basketball players who played in the 70's, 80's and 90's. You state since they never played against Garza, they have no more personal knowledge about him then you have (let me know if I am taking your words out of context). What are you implying about their credibility vs. your credibility?
When you get to choose which "success" metrics you want to support the conclusion you have already drawn, then your research is already flawed.
I have no issue with debate. It is OK to disagree. I didn't ask any of them why they believe Roy and Stokes were better. Without any hesitation they all said Roy and added Greg Stokes, as well. That is enough for me. I believe The Iowa teams Roy played with were better than the Iowa teams Luka played with. I believe the Illinois teams Roy's teams played against were better than the Illinois teams Luka played against, and I believe the Michigan teams Roy played against are better than the Michigan teams Luka has played against. Yes, I am aware of the seedings then and now. The days of 1 and done vs. the days of stay 4 years is a material difference in my mind. The players on Roy's teams were materially better than the players on Luka's teams. Luka benefited greatly from the 3 point line. the 3 point line had not been around that long when Roy played.
The fair thing to say is they are different players from different eras with different teammates. I will take the credibility of former players over current posters.
I'm done posting for a while. Thank you for the debate. I'm thankful we have a two time NPOY and a leading point scorer to debate about. Peace out!
I was in college during the Marble years. He had flashes of brilliance, but his game never reached the promise of his freshman year. By their senior year, both BJ and Horton were more valuable to the team. I can't remember a single game his senior year that he put on his shoulders and carried the team to victory. He attained the scoring record because he started all 4 years, not because he was a prolific scorer. That's why he was never a Big Ten Player of the Year or even 1st team Big Ten.
And yeah, Stokes was a beast. Played with the 76ers. Walked out on the floor for his first game next to Dr. J. Payne was more highly touted out of HS and his freshman year. He was pretty flat after that and Stokes grew into a better player by far.
And yeah, Stokes was a beast. Played with the 76ers. Walked out on the floor for his first game next to Dr. J. Payne was more highly touted out of HS and his freshman year. He was pretty flat after that and Stokes grew into a better player by far.
<<Choose to believe me or not>>
You gotta better shot at me believing Biden won AND Trump orchestrated the Capitol riot...
