Who hates Iowa? Devyn Marble.

[C/Seahawk]

A few thoughts:

- its interesting that Doyle related threads got deleted real quick but this one remains despite it going completely off the rails. Seems like a pretty obvious double standard by whomever is monitoring these boards.
- onlytheobvious suggests graduating should be a requirement and I don't think that is necessarily true or fair. What if a kid becomes a two time first team all american after his first three years on campus and declares for the NBA and is a first round pick while leading Iowa to deep runs in the BTT and NCAA tourney? Isn't the point of college to prepare you for your profession of choice? In the example I've provided I think the hypothetical player in question should be eligible to have his jersey retired. If Caitlin Clark leaves after her junior year after setting numerous school records, multiple first team all big ten honors, first team all american, etc., should she not be eligible to have her jersey or number retired?
- really hate to see the posters that are trashing Devyn for offering an honest opinion that upsets some fans. He is entitled to his opinion and I'm sure Fran and Gary will go to great lengths to mend the relationship. The topic of Roy Marble has always been a complicated one so its not like the UofI had an easy decision as it related to retiring his number, jersey, etc. Without rehashing his off court exploits he also didn't earn first team all big ten or first team all american, so its not a clear cut decision to honor him beyond the way he was. Certainly becoming the schools all time leading scorer deserved more than he received in my humble opinion. I would argue it would have been very easy for the university to retire his jersey a few years back but that would have come on the heels of yet another legal issue that would have without a doubt drawn a LOT of criticism from the media, public and women's rights activists and deservedly so.

At this point we really shouldn't be getting too worked up about this situation. Let Fran, Devyn and his family, the University, etc. work behind the scenes to discuss and resolve this matter if possible while respecting what Roy accomplished on the court.

 

[SB_SB]

Agreed.

Dev opened this can of worms and made the whole damn topic public. And now people are discussing the reasons why Roy never reached that high bar that one must reach in order to have your number retired.

I guess Gary needs to sit down with Dev privately and discuss the criteria and which ones Roy did not meet and why.

People are not discussing, they're ripping into Roy and discounting what he did and meant to the university during his years on campus.

 

[TritonHawkeye]

People are not discussing, they're ripping into Roy and discounting what he did and meant to the university during his years on campus.

Most are not. You seem blinded to the facts. Roy didn't make an easy decision easy.

The late 80's was filled with "Just Say No", Len Bias death and then you have Iowa in a spot to just ignore the political pressure and to retire a jersey. I imagine there were a lot of discussions at the time of do or don't. Then Roy never stayed out of the press for transgressions. I loved the player but I completely understand why Iowa chose not to enshrine him.

 

[Slim45]

People are not discussing, they're ripping into Roy and discounting what he did and meant to the university during his years on campus.

No, not really. Just stating the fact that he wasn’t a very good man off the court and had many public issues. I don’t blame the U 1 bit for not wanting to enshrine him with the honor of jersey retirement.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

Insane. Luka Garza is the most decorated player in the history of Iowa basketball and it isn't close. Not sure why this set Devyn off about Roy. It's not even remotely comparable.

 

[kceasthawk]

That is not a very well thought out response. No one would dispute Roy Marble's scoring ability. Roy would have scored even more points if he had to carry the team. If Garza was not surrounded with the best three point shooting team Iowa has ever had, then he would never have been close to the all time scoring record.

Really? He had some of his highest scoring games when we couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. We lost many of his highest scoring games because the snipers were off that day. Your message is confusing by the way. First you say that we should imagine how many points Roy could have scored if he hadn't played with so many great players around him, then you say Luka only scored so many points because of the other great players around him. Your trying to control the narrative from both sides....

 

[SB_SB]

Insane. Luka Garza is the most decorated player in the history of Iowa basketball and it isn't close. Not sure why this set Devyn off about Roy. It's not even remotely comparable.

The last 4 years have really damage us as a society and as humans. Can you not put yourself in DM shoes just a little. I have no idea what DM is truly feeling but I can try to guess. Let's start with, he lost his dad which isn't always easy. His dad was a great player for Iowa and was at the top of the record books. While his number wasn't retired, DM at least knew his dad's name wouldn't fade away. But now with Luka moving to the top, DM feels he's fading away and that can be hard to deal with. If Roy's number (or Jersey) was retired, then DM would probably feel different. Think about when JB missed the FT so Chris Street wasn't removed from the top. That was so important to so many people because they don't want to forget CS. CS's family thanked JB because it meant so much to them. Is it so wrong for DM to have those feelings? Maybe I'm way off but that's how I see it.

 

[Fan In Black]

Good point but the beef should be with Stokes as his career and accolades are on par with Marbles'. Garza's career and accolades are on an entirely different level with the 2x BIG and national POY, 2x 1st team AA, etc.

I totally agree dude. 55 should be retired. 41 should not have been, IMO.

 

[NorthDSMHawk]

The last 4 years have really damage us as a society and as humans. Can you not put yourself in DM shoes just a little. I have no idea what DM is truly feeling but I can try to guess. Let's start with, he lost his dad which isn't always easy. His dad was a great player for Iowa and was at the top of the record books. While his number wasn't retired, DM at least knew his dad's name wouldn't fade away. But now with Luka moving to the top, DM feels he's fading away and that can be hard to deal with. If Roy's number (or Jersey) was retired, then DM would probably feel different. Think about when JB missed the FT so Chris Street wasn't removed from the top. That was so important to so many people because they don't want to forget CS. CS's family thanked JB because it meant so much to them. Is it so wrong for DM to have those feelings? Maybe I'm way off but that's how I see it.

JFC, nobody is saying the guy can't have those feelings. He's 100% free to. It's also 100% acceptable to find him posting about this days after Luka received his recognition trashy.

 

[Fan In Black]

I'm thinking there are a lot more awards that Garza has won then just the scoring records. Roy was probably a better skilled ball player but Luka has so many AWARDS other than just scoring. The teams Roy played on could have probably won about as many games without him but the last two years Iowa probably would have been lucky to be 50 / 50. See next year...JMO

I agree with you. Luka is a no brainer. I dont think 23 should be or 41 should have been retired. Ill just leave it at that. Go hawks.

 

[LarryMullenJr.]

People are not discussing, they're ripping into Roy and discounting what he did and meant to the university during his years on campus.

Seriously? Really?
By saying the man was a hell of a basketball player, was fun to watch, and provided the fans with a ton of entertainment and wins, but saying he broke laws, did unethical and immoral things that's ripping in to him?

Facts are funny things.

 

[SB_SB]

JFC, nobody is saying the guy can't have those feelings. He's 100% free to. It's also 100% acceptable to find him posting about this days after Luka received his recognition trashy.

Next time how about actually reading what i was replying to before responding.

 

[SB_SB]

Seriously? Really?
By saying the man was a hell of a basketball player, was fun to watch, and provided the fans with a ton of entertainment and wins, but saying he broke laws, did unethical and immoral things that's ripping in to him?

Facts are funny things.

Maybe you should get your facts straight, that isn’t what some posters are doing.

 

[NorthDSMHawk]

Next time how about actually reading what i was replying to before responding.

I did, and no context was lost. It's a bad take, sorry.

 

[SB_SB]

I did, and no context was lost. It's a bad take, sorry.

That's because you had an agenda and really don't care about the actual conversation. Next time rather than replying to posts, just create a standalone post.

 

[doughuddl2]

I'm guessing you never saw Roy Marble play. Roy was a scorer. No one who ever saw him play would dispute that view. If you want to take on an improbable view point, then enjoy it. However, most people who know the game of basketball would agree with me that Roy would have scored even more points if that team was not so stacked with so many ways to score. Most people who know the game of basketball would also agree with me that Garza would have scored less points if he wasn't surrounded by the best 3 point shooting team in Iowa's history.

I choose to live in a world of what is more probable than what is less probable. But by all means, play your game of tails.

Blah blah blah, you know more than anyone. Gag me. I expected a BS reply back like this. You didn't let me down.

 

[Auger]

Roy was a great player for 4 years at Iowa. His freshman year created a lot of hype. I thought B.J. and Horton grew their games better and emerged as the heart of the team by their JR and SR years. B.J. really led the team his JR year and Horton blew up his SR. I thought Horton was the best player on the team their SR year. The offense really ran through B.J. Roy worked really well off him and this was a big reason for the Bulls wanting B.J.

I guess what I am trying to say is Roy emerged early for Iowa fans and I felt B.J. and Horton came on the final two years and were better overall players than Roy. Roy was the most fun to watch however. Would have been nice if he developed a consistent 3pt shot. Would have helped him at the next level. Would have been nice to see his jersey retired but he only has himself to blame with his consistent off the court problems.

 

[kceasthawk]

The last 4 years have really damage us as a society and as humans. Can you not put yourself in DM shoes just a little. I have no idea what DM is truly feeling but I can try to guess. Let's start with, he lost his dad which isn't always easy. His dad was a great player for Iowa and was at the top of the record books. While his number wasn't retired, DM at least knew his dad's name wouldn't fade away. But now with Luka moving to the top, DM feels he's fading away and that can be hard to deal with. If Roy's number (or Jersey) was retired, then DM would probably feel different. Think about when JB missed the FT so Chris Street wasn't removed from the top. That was so important to so many people because they don't want to forget CS. CS's family thanked JB because it meant so much to them. Is it so wrong for DM to have those feelings? Maybe I'm way off but that's how I see it.

I can see what your saying but no one will ever forget Chris Street regardless of him holding the record or not. This has been talked about here before. His plague and message is on the wall where the players come up through the tunnel and they touch it when they run out. There is a city rec center and gym in his home town named after him, golf outing in his name and various other tributes. No true Iowa fan will ever forget who Chris Street was because of how he carried himself on and off the court. Roy was a very good player and he scored more points then anyone else at Iowa until last week. Barta gave some reasons why Roy's number 23 was not retired, and I have no idea if thats factual or not. Either way he would probably would have been better off not getting into the damage control, and just let this die back down. Hopefully this doesn't turn into another black eye for the University.

 

[Whinny]

The most sensible solution to this issue is for Barta to publicly release the criteria for retiring numbers and/or jerseys. No explanation needed.

 

[HawkIDrummer]

Well said.

And think about how one football related tweet and one basketball related tweet created a ton of chaos in the Iowa athletic dept.

James Daniels' tweet almost brought down KF and the entire coaching staff. And don't forget; KF wished James had gone to him instead of tweeting.

Devyn Marble's tweet was simply dumb, as you describe. Again, go to your ally (Fran). Don't go to Twitter, for crying out loud

It's the natural by-product of the participation trophy/self-esteem/I'm a victim generation (who's molding began somewhere in the early/mid 90s) combined with instant access to social media like Twitter. This is just one more way it's manifesting. We have more and more adult children who'd rather throw a public tantrum than deal with things or people directly.

 

[Robster Raws]

I’ve read through this and have seen where Roy was apparently in rehab stint or something similar during his college career.

If so, the university can’t have it both ways. Can’t say his drug problems are an issue for them now, while saying they weren’t a big enough problem then to boot him. Gotta keep him eligible and on the court and all.

And I know he had other legal issues. But he held the most sacred record for 30 years and lesser accomplished players got the honor over him. Seemed like the university hid under any reason (public or private) to avoid his recognition. I guess that’s all.

 

[VicHawkeye]

Glen Rice, Calbert Cheaney, Nick Anderson, Willie Burton, Steve Smith...

Dissing Roy Sr for not making 1st team all BIG in that era is weak. Roy hauled the mail for us during the most exciting years in my lifetime. Few opposing teams were as memorable as the ‘87 natty Hoosiers, Lou Dou’s Flyin’ Illini and the ‘Michigan led by a Michigan man’ natty Wolvies. And our Roy Marble led Iowa Hawkeyes.

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

This whole "controversy" illustrates perfectly two larger problems in our culture.

First, it demonstrates how emotions have come to dominate fact and logic in decision making. On the face of the facts the comparison of Roy Marble, an extraordinary Hawk player to Luka Garza, perhaps the best Iowa basketball player of all time, just diminishes Roy. It forces people to do what's been abundantly done here: lay out the factual distinctions between the two careers. Roy was never even 1st All B!G. Luka is two time B!G POY and 1st team All B!G. Roy was a scorer who never lead his conference in scoring. Luka's done it twice. Etc... But facts are facts. Luka's career eclipses everyone at Iowa in the last 50 years at least, if not ever, with the possible exception of Ronnie Lester, who didn't produce like Luka.

Instead we have a big controversy, trying to be made into a racist critique of Iowa, that grows out of Roy's son's emotions. Of course Roy's family are not objective and they are pissed but their hearts are thinking for their heads, as should be expected on this issue-it is personal to them. Of course Devyn Marble and the family notice the jersey number missing from the rafters and see BJ's number instead. Roy was their father and they long ago forgave Roy's **** ups, which were numerous as others have discussed above and which cost Roy's jersey that place in the rafters.

The media and the school should have just remained quiet about Dev's comments and understood them for what they are. Instead its triggered a war of words about a deceased icon who's not around to speak for himself and forced people to both compare Luka with Roy, a comparison unflattering to Roy's career and dredge up Roy's old sins as the reasons Roy's number is not retired. Everyone knows Roy Marble's worst enemy was Roy Marble, and he paid more grievously than he sinned.

There's no way this conversation is healthy for Roy's family, the University and, most importantly Roy's memory and place in Hawkeye history. Roy took his sins to his grave so should we not also leave them there? Let's define and celebrate Roy Marble's career at Iowa for all that it was rather than for whatever it lacked.

 

[KFsdisciple]

This whole "controversy" illustrates perfectly two larger problems in our culture.

First, it demonstrates how emotions have come to dominate fact and logic in decision making. On the face of the facts the comparison of Roy Marble, an extraordinary Hawk player to Luka Garza, perhaps the best Iowa basketball player of all time, just diminishes Roy. It forces people to do what's been abundantly done here: lay out the factual distinctions between the two careers. Roy was never even 1st All B!G. Luka is two time B!G POY and 1st team All B!G. Roy was a scorer who never lead his conference in scoring. Luka's done it twice. Etc... But facts are facts. Luka's career eclipses everyone at Iowa in the last 50 years at least, if not ever, with the possible exception of Ronnie Lester, who didn't produce like Luka.

Instead we have a big controversy, trying to be made into a racist critique of Iowa, that grows out of Roy's son's emotions. Of course Roy's family are not objective and they are pissed but their hearts are thinking for their heads, as should be expected on this issue-it is personal to them. Of course Devyn Marble and the family notice the jersey number missing from the rafters and see BJ's number instead. Roy was their father and they long ago forgave Roy's **** ups, which were numerous as others have discussed above and which cost Roy's jersey that place in the rafters.

The media and the school should have just remained quiet about Dev's comments and understood them for what they are. Instead its triggered a war of words about a deceased icon who's not around to speak for himself and forced people to both compare Luka with Roy, a comparison unflattering to Roy's career and dredge up Roy's old sins as the reasons Roy's number is not retired. Everyone knows Roy Marble's worst enemy was Roy Marble, and he paid more grievously than he sinned.

There's no way this conversation is healthy for Roy's family, the University and, most importantly Roy's memory and place in Hawkeye history. Roy took his sins to his grave so should we not also leave them there? Let's define and celebrate Roy Marble's career at Iowa for all that it was rather than for whatever it lacked.

mic drop

 

[hawkedoff]

This whole "controversy" illustrates perfectly two larger problems in our culture.

First, it demonstrates how emotions have come to dominate fact and logic in decision making. On the face of the facts the comparison of Roy Marble, an extraordinary Hawk player to Luka Garza, perhaps the best Iowa basketball player of all time, just diminishes Roy. It forces people to do what's been abundantly done here: lay out the factual distinctions between the two careers. Roy was never even 1st All B!G. Luka is two time B!G POY and 1st team All B!G. Roy was a scorer who never lead his conference in scoring. Luka's done it twice. Etc... But facts are facts. Luka's career eclipses everyone at Iowa in the last 50 years at least, if not ever, with the possible exception of Ronnie Lester, who didn't produce like Luka.

Instead we have a big controversy, trying to be made into a racist critique of Iowa, that grows out of Roy's son's emotions. Of course Roy's family are not objective and they are pissed but their hearts are thinking for their heads, as should be expected on this issue-it is personal to them. Of course Devyn Marble and the family notice the jersey number missing from the rafters and see BJ's number instead. Roy was their father and they long ago forgave Roy's **** ups, which were numerous as others have discussed above and which cost Roy's jersey that place in the rafters.

The media and the school should have just remained quiet about Dev's comments and understood them for what they are. Instead its triggered a war of words about a deceased icon who's not around to speak for himself and forced people to both compare Luka with Roy, a comparison unflattering to Roy's career and dredge up Roy's old sins as the reasons Roy's number is not retired. Everyone knows Roy Marble's worst enemy was Roy Marble, and he paid more grievously than he sinned.

There's no way this conversation is healthy for Roy's family, the University and, most importantly Roy's memory and place in Hawkeye history. Roy took his sins to his grave so should we not also leave them there? Let's define and celebrate Roy Marble's career at Iowa for all that it was rather than for whatever it lacked.

Those sins didn't go to the grave with him and the fans and university didn't dig up that grave regardless. .once again roy's sins have put the University in a spot where they are affiliated with his poor choices and somehow made responsible for the choices he made affecting him not get honored in a way he doesn't deserve. Yes those sins matter on something like the programs highest honor. Especially now.

Devyn started this review and no one else. Responding to it once again and being left in a mess is the basketball program and the University

 

[papabeef]

They weren’t teammates

my bad

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

Those sins didn't go to the grave with him and the fans and university didn't dig up that grave regardless. .once again roy's sins have put the University in a spot where they are affiliated with his poor choices and somehow made responsible for the choices he made affecting him not get honored in a way he doesn't deserve. Yes those sins matter on something like the programs highest honor. Especially now.

Devyn started this review and no one else. Responding to it once again and being left in a mess is the basketball program and the University

How uncharitable.

 

[papabeef]

I'm thinking there are a lot more awards that Garza has won then just the scoring records. Roy was probably a better skilled ball player but Luka has so many AWARDS other than just scoring. The teams Roy played on could have probably won about as many games without him but the last two years Iowa probably would have been lucky to be 50 / 50. See next year...JMO

great post

 

[papabeef]

I admit I didn't read through this entire thread, but feel I need to comment on those thoughts that Roy wasn't even the best player on his teams. That is just blatantly incorrect. BJ and Horton blossomed while here and Armstrong actually led the team in scoring his junior year, but Roy was great from the very beginning of his career. He led the team in scoring three of his four years here and was a force to be reckoned with in the B1G during what could be considered a golden era. He may not have collected the accolades that Luka is garnering, but he was a tremendous player.

he is a tremendous player but luka is number 1 .

 

[TritonHawkeye]

This whole "controversy" illustrates perfectly two larger problems in our culture.

First, it demonstrates how emotions have come to dominate fact and logic in decision making. On the face of the facts the comparison of Roy Marble, an extraordinary Hawk player to Luka Garza, perhaps the best Iowa basketball player of all time, just diminishes Roy. It forces people to do what's been abundantly done here: lay out the factual distinctions between the two careers. Roy was never even 1st All B!G. Luka is two time B!G POY and 1st team All B!G. Roy was a scorer who never lead his conference in scoring. Luka's done it twice. Etc... But facts are facts. Luka's career eclipses everyone at Iowa in the last 50 years at least, if not ever, with the possible exception of Ronnie Lester, who didn't produce like Luka.

Instead we have a big controversy, trying to be made into a racist critique of Iowa, that grows out of Roy's son's emotions. Of course Roy's family are not objective and they are pissed but their hearts are thinking for their heads, as should be expected on this issue-it is personal to them. Of course Devyn Marble and the family notice the jersey number missing from the rafters and see BJ's number instead. Roy was their father and they long ago forgave Roy's **** ups, which were numerous as others have discussed above and which cost Roy's jersey that place in the rafters.

The media and the school should have just remained quiet about Dev's comments and understood them for what they are. Instead its triggered a war of words about a deceased icon who's not around to speak for himself and forced people to both compare Luka with Roy, a comparison unflattering to Roy's career and dredge up Roy's old sins as the reasons Roy's number is not retired. Everyone knows Roy Marble's worst enemy was Roy Marble, and he paid more grievously than he sinned.

There's no way this conversation is healthy for Roy's family, the University and, most importantly Roy's memory and place in Hawkeye history. Roy took his sins to his grave so should we not also leave them there? Let's define and celebrate Roy Marble's career at Iowa for all that it was rather than for whatever it lacked.

So, if you represented the state University and had the power to decide, do you enshrine him and retire his number?

 

[LarryStation]

Blah blah blah, you know more than anyone. Gag me. I expected a BS reply back like this. You didn't let me down.

It is clear I know more than you at least.

 

[LarryStation]

Really? He had some of his highest scoring games when we couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. We lost many of his highest scoring games because the snipers were off that day. Your message is confusing by the way. First you say that we should imagine how many points Roy could have scored if he hadn't played with so many great players around him, then you say Luka only scored so many points because of the other great players around him. Your trying to control the narrative from both sides....

Recognizing skill sets of different players is not the same as controlling both sides of the narrative. The teams they each played on contrast each other significantly. The skills of Roy and Garza contrast each other significantly. Of course Garza was more likely to have his better games when are three point shooters were more heavily contested.

 

[LarryStation]

Stats and awards say otherwise, but you are entitled to your opinion.

You can't compare the awards. Roy played when players stayed 4 years. Garza plays when the best players leave after 1 year. If the best players in today's era stayed for 4 years, then Garza would not have these awards. I'm not dissing Garza. There is just no question in my mind that Roy was the better basketball player.

 

[LarryStation]

I am a big fan of Roy. But he benefitted greatly from Dr. Tom's style of play. Roy got a lot of easy layups from steals off the full-court press. And Dr. Tom's hectic style tended to wear other teams out, which allowed Marble to get a lot of fast break points and 2nd chance baskets. Roy was a freak athlete, but not necessarily a highly skilled basketball player. That is one of the 2 reasons he flamed out so quickly in the NBA.

You make very good points. Very good for discussion. Truly, I appreciate your thoughts as being sound and solid. Thanks for sharing them!

 

[LarryStation]

Might want to check yourself with your moronic posts before you talk anybody else's intelligence there..... because your posts are clueless as they come

That is quite an argument you put up here. Thank you! And you think you know more about basketball than a Big 10 coach. That tells me all I need to know about moronic posts.

 

[LarryStation]

hey spasmo as of today luka did all his scoring in 11 less games , roy 134 luka 123 . i love me some roy but you might want to quit bringing up the first round nba draft pick stuff he played 29 nba games in 2 different stints . maybe he was not a first round pick ? something to think about .

Not sure what a spasmo is, but your response takes a snippet of what I have said out of the context in which it was being said. I know you don't have much command of the English language when it comes to the written word, but now I am also questioning if you can read full sentences. Or maybe you are just lazy.

 

[LarryStation]

you calling me an illliterate , classic .

You can ask any 1st grader from a public school to review your grammar and they will tell you that don't know where to place punctuation or complete a full sentence. You don't need me to tell you.

 

[ANYCHawk]

The most sensible solution to this issue is for Barta to publicly release the criteria for retiring numbers and/or jerseys. No explanation needed.

There's always something subjective to it. To just say you have to do X, Y, Z and your guarenteed to get it is dumb. There might be a guy who transfer in plays 1 year and leads them to a national champion. Maybe its worth retiring his. Or a guy who breaks Luka's record but turns out he was taking bribes and raping coeds. Let's not retire his number

 

[ANYCHawk]

You can't compare the awards. Roy played when players stayed 4 years. Garza plays when the best players leave after 1 year. If the best players in today's era stayed for 4 years, then Garza would not have these awards. I'm not dissing Garza. There is just no question in my mind that Roby was the better basketball player.

This assumes that every 1 and done player would contiue to develop and get better. We know that's not true. You can see it when they go to the NBA and flop. You see in college football when a guy is great his freshman year but then kind of piddles out.

It also assumes the development is the same in 1980s as it is today. Guys today probably develop more in a year than guys did in 4 years in 1980s. Training, film, coaching, diet, strength are all light years ahead of where they were in 1980

 

[83Hawk]

You can't compare the awards. Roy played when players stayed 4 years. Garza plays when the best players leave after 1 year. If the best players in today's era stayed for 4 years, then Garza would not have these awards. I'm not dissing Garza. There is just no question in my mind that Roy was the better basketball player.

Sure you can. You choose not to.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see any evidence to support saying a player who never made first team All Big 10 is better than a player who is a 2-time first team All Big 10, 2 time player of the year in the Big 10, will be a 2-time consensus all-american, and will likely be the national player of the year. Or at worst, runner up.

But....you have your opinion and you are entitled to it.