Big Ten Finals(and 3rd/5th) discussion

[sdvike]

There's one small detail to all this... Bono was one of the few people that didn't care about the issues with Gomez and selfishly let him wrestle.

Maybe we'll revisit this when Gomez' career is completed and see if it worked out.

As much as I despise Dresser and Clone fans, I'm not going to rag on Orange over this one.

I dont care for Bono but the issue wouldnt be on him. He would have no say in clearing a wrestler medically to compete. Doctors and future lawsuits might be in play there if any question.
Dresser is, ahem, a way better recruiter than trainer. Him thinking Parker was the man at 141 turns out to be a joke. Gomez has progressed much better in Wisconsin than Parker at ISU, just going by last weekends tournaments.

 

[pawrestler4life]

Berge is too physical for Young too. Young did absolutely nothing to try and win that match.

Too physical? 😂 You realize Berge is the opposite, hence why Bull beat the brakes off him. Berge is a defensive, let you come to him and score off re-attacks or timing the aggressiveness of the guy kind of wrestler

 

[pawrestler4life]

Totally agree. Matchups for young are huge. He can totally AA

Both spot on. Berge matchup kills Young because of his defensive style and looking to score off re-attacks. Young benefits from a guy staying in with him where he can fire off his high-c or score from action created. See Robb, who gives most guys trouble and is just as good as Berge in my opinion but Young benefits from that style more as seen in last 2 matches

 

[MitchLL]

I dont care for Bono but the issue wouldnt be on him. He would have no say in clearing a wrestler medically to compete. Doctors and future lawsuits might be in play there if any question.
Dresser is, ahem, a way better recruiter than trainer. Him thinking Parker was the man at 141 turns out to be a joke. Gomez has progressed much better in Wisconsin than Parker at ISU, just going by last weekends tournaments.

I'm sure not going to argue with your comments on Dresser.

ISU looks permanently stuck on "average" with him. Not exactly a great ROI for Jimmie Pollard.

Gomez is certainly on a nice run.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

I get that from a fan standpoint but I’d rather them rest up and not risk having to MFF out of NCAA’s

A lot of people with short memories who forgot what happened to Marinelli last NCAAs. I agree, big tens is fun, but the only tournament that matters at the NCAA level is the NCAA championship tournament.

 

[notlongago]

We’re coming off 2 consecutive Big Ten and 1 (call it 2) National Titles. This is 90% injuries. Healthy Lee and Kem and the Hawks walk away with this.

You can't count 2020 as a win if you say this team wins w/o injuries. Both can't happen since this team wouldn't be here if 2020 had played out.

 

[MSU158]

You can't count 2020 as a win if you say this team wins w/o injuries. Both can't happen since this team wouldn't be here if 2020 had played out.

You sure can in regards to the B1G. I mean all 3 were wrestled. But, yes, the NCAA issue is fair. Still, it is also fair to say Iowa should have and almost certainly would be the 2x defending National Champs, while most likely wrestling for 3rd place this year without having Lee, DeSanto,Eierman, Young, Bull or Kemerer.

 

[Bones Malone]

If they called stalling like they did in the eighties and nineties it fixes this. If you rode just to ride, they called stalling (on top) and stalemates quickly. If no one shot or pushed the action in neutral they called double stalls. The refs forced the action. Problem is it opens everything up to inconsistently calling matches depending on the ref, which would happen. It is making for some boring matches now if neither wrestler is aggressive now though.

This

 

[A Fist Full of Hawkeyes]

Not surprising at all. No idea how his knee is, but he ain't beating GS and Iowa isn't winning a team title. Heal up and hope you get a chance to get worked by Gable in the NCAA Finals! 🙂 (with the caveat that Dan Gable got beat, if he can, anybody can, never say never)

 

[WxNWHawk]

If they called stalling like they did in the eighties and nineties it fixes this. If you rode just to ride, they called stalling (on top) and stalemates quickly. If no one shot or pushed the action in neutral they called double stalls. The refs forced the action. Problem is it opens everything up to inconsistently calling matches depending on the ref, which would happen. It is making for some boring matches now if neither wrestler is aggressive now though.

1) Shot clock
2) Push outs & Step outs (fleeing)
3) RT only awarded after TD & reversals, and no RT to start a period.

Stalling 100% fixed with 3 simple changes that don't negatively impact folkstyle action. Say what you want about freestyle, but they have stalling totally under control.

 

[Grip220]

The only one in question is Big Cass, and there was nothing to gain and everything to lose if he would have made an injury worse than it was against GS.
The rules are the rules now that Iowa is utilizing them so our wrestlers can get to the end with the best health possible we are being criticized!
Nobody likes that our guys are injured and if they were not injured they would have wrestled end of story.
change the rules until then do what’s best for our guys while staying within the rules!

 

[Bones Malone]

1) Shot clock
2) Push outs & Step outs (fleeing)
3) RT only awarded after TD & reversals, and no RT to start a period.

Stalling 100% fixed with 3 simple changes that don't negatively impact folkstyle action. Say what you want about freestyle, but they have stalling totally under control.

I'd like to believe the current refs could be "coached" into encouraging/officiating more aggressive/offensive wrestling but not sure if that is realistic. Also, consider myself more a folk style fan but I'm in favor of any tweak(s) to take subjectivity out of refereeing. If anything, for consistency's sake. We need to make it simple for the referees and some of the suggestions I see are making it more complicated. Like these suggestions.

 

[TarpHawk]

OK what is the benchmark?

Everything's subjective, but here's a rationale for 4 different benchmarks.

1. All-American is a legit credential and not easy to attain, as many excellent wrestlers will attest.

2. To win NCAAs, a team needs to score 130+ points. That means every team member must average 13. If you didn't score 13, you didn't pull your weight. You could have 10 AAs (all 8th) and end up off the team podium. Mike Evans was a 3x AA and never scored 13+ points. So one could say the true benchmark is 4th place.

3. For a team that aspires to win NCAA championships, the most reasonable benchmark is champs, followed by finalists. That's where the real points are, and that's what we should aim for with recruits. All-Americans provide additional support.

4. Gable said everyone's goal on the Iowa team should be to be an NCAA champ. Clearly, that was his benchmark.

 

[WxNWHawk]

I'd like to believe the current refs could be "coached" into encouraging/officiating more aggressive/offensive wrestling but not sure if that is realistic. Also, consider myself more a folk style fan but I'm in favor of any tweak(s) to take subjectivity out of refereeing. If anything, for consistency's sake. We need to make it simple for the referees and some of the suggestions I see are making it more complicated. Like these suggestions.

How is it more complicated?

If you step out of bounds it's a point. If you stall, the first time you get 30 seconds to score or you give up a point and it's a point every time after.

Below is a perfect example of how if you wanna run and avoid offense, you're gonna get hammered for it. This is Cassioppi against Paris Karepi at U23s. Karepi is doing the same thing that Cam Amine did yesterday to Marinelli and he pays the price for it. Gave up 5 points for passivity and stepping out, and if RBY had to wrestle within these rules in folk, he'd lose to DeSanto.

 

[WPB_lion]

So guys with torn up knees should wrestle a meaningless match and potentially be even more hurt before nationals to appease TV and fans? Great logic. And yes the matches were meaningless because they are going to be seeded as Big Ten runner ups either way. They didn't gain anything vs wrestling hurt and losing to the #1 guy except possible saved health.

Allowing wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injury to cut corners by MFF in the conference championships should not become a strategy that works. The Big Ten Wrestling Championship is the second biggest stage for college wrestling and it was treated like a second hand tournament. Please spare me the "wussey" arguments which support MFFs and turn the Conference Championships into a joke.

I believe the punishment for not wrestling in the Conference Championship needs be severe enough that the wrestler who is capable of wrestling through his injury would think twice before MFF. I support a rule that MFF should cause the wrestler to be treated as though he did not place. I believe we would have seen a lot more wrestling yesterday if that were the rule.

 

[blcoach80]

Allowing wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injury to cut corners by MFF in the conference championships should not become a strategy that works. The Big Ten wrestling championship is the second biggest stage for college wrestling and it was treated like a second hand tournament. Please spare me the "wussey" arguments which support MFFs and turn the Conference Championships into a joke.

I believe the punishment for not wrestling in the Conference Championship needs be severe enough that the wrestler who is capable of wrestling through his injury would think twice before MFF. I support a rule that MFF should cause the wrestler to be treated as though he did not place. I believe we would have seen a lot more wrestling yesterday if that were the rule.

How could you possibly know whether they were capable of wrestling through their injuries? You don't even know what their injuries are. If it was to protect seeds, why did Austin and the Bull wrestle. Why did Young and Warner wrestle. Thinking wrestlers should gimp through matches for your entertainment while further injuring themselves is why you are not a coach. If you want to bash T n T for putting the health of their guys before winning, go ahead. I have no problem with it and I bet their families don't either.

 

[WPB_lion]

How could you possibly know whether they were capable of wrestling through their injuries? You don't even know what their injuries are. If it was to protect seeds, why did Austin and the Bull wrestle. Why did Young and Warner wrestle. Thinking wrestlers should gimp through matches for your entertainment while further injuring themselves is why you are not a coach. If you want to bash T n T for putting the health of their guys before winning, go ahead. I have no problem with it and I bet their families don't either.

I don't know whether they were capable of wrestling through their injuries. My point is that the punishment for MFF should be severe enough that only wrestlers who are incapable of wrestling through their injuries should MFF. MFFs in the Conference Championships should not become a successful strategy for wrestlers who are capable of wrestling. The grind of wrestling an entire season is part of what makes becoming an NCAA champion so difficult. If nothing changes, I suspect we will see the number of MFFs increase each year.

I suspect (but I do not know) if this were the NCAA championship, every Iowa wrestler would have been able wrestling.

 

[MVPFAN]

Allowing wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injury to cut corners by MFF in the conference championships should not become a strategy that works. The Big Ten Wrestling Championship is the second biggest stage for college wrestling and it was treated like a second hand tournament. Please spare me the "wussey" arguments which support MFFs and turn the Conference Championships into a joke.

I believe the punishment for not wrestling in the Conference Championship needs be severe enough that the wrestler who is capable of wrestling through his injury would think twice before MFF. I support a rule that MFF should cause the wrestler to be treated as though he did not place. I believe we would have seen a lot more wrestling yesterday if that were the rule.

Who the hell are you to judge whether a guys medical condition is something he should wrestle through? Also what corners got cut exactly? You can go ahead and call those finals matches a loss because it doesn't matter either way for the guys with the injuries, they had nothing to gain but more severe injuries by wrestling there.

 

[eb05]

I don't know whether they are capable of wrestling through their injuries. My point is that the punishment for MFF should be severe enough that only wrestlers who are incapable of wrestling through their injuries should MFF. MFFs in the Conference Championships should not become a successful strategy for wrestlers who are capable of wrestling.

I suspect (but I do not know) if this were the NCAA championship, every Iowa wrestler would have been able wrestling.

please explain how the Iowa wrestlers MFF is a “successful strategy” here. they had already lost to the guys they forfeited to so another loss wouldn’t effect their seeding whatsoever

 

[MVPFAN]

I don't know whether they were capable of wrestling through their injuries. My point is that the punishment for MFF should be severe enough that only wrestlers who are incapable of wrestling through their injuries should MFF. MFFs in the Conference Championships should not become a successful strategy for wrestlers who are capable of wrestling. The grind of wrestling an entire season is part of what makes becoming an NCAA champion so difficult. If nothing changes, I suspect we will see the number of MFFs increase each year.

I suspect (but I do not know) if this were the NCAA championship, every Iowa wrestler would have been able wrestling.

Successful strategy for what? Cheating your viewing entertainment? Lol

 

[WPB_lion]

Who the hell are you to judge whether a guys medical condition is something he should wrestle through? Also what corners got cut exactly? You can go ahead and call those finals matches a loss because it doesn't matter either way for the guys with the injuries, they had nothing to gain but more severe injuries by wrestling there.

I have no idea whether any of the wrestlers had injuries that they could not wrestle through. That is why I believe the rules should be changed to make the MFF more consequential. I believe this will flesh out those wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injuries and stop this MFF trend.

 

[Bones Malone]

How is it more complicated?

If you step out of bounds it's a point. If you stall, the first time you get 30 seconds to score or you give up a point and it's a point every time after.

Below is a perfect example of how if you wanna run and avoid offense, you're gonna get hammered for it. This is Cassioppi against Paris Karepi at U23s. Karepi is doing the same thing that Cam Amine did yesterday to Marinelli and he pays the price for it. Gave up 5 points for passivity and stepping out, and if RBY had to wrestle within these rules in folk, he'd lose to DeSanto.

View embedded media

I was not very clear. When I said, "Like these suggestions", I meant "I like your suggestions".

Others have offered solutions that would complicate & add subjectivity - IMO.

 

[blcoach80]

I don't know whether they are capable of wrestling through their injuries. My point is that the punishment for MFF should be severe enough that only wrestlers who are incapable of wrestling through their injuries should MFF. MFFs in the Conference Championships should not become a successful strategy for wrestlers who are capable of wrestling.

I suspect (but I do not know) if this were the NCAA championship, every Iowa wrestler would have been able wrestling.

I agree on not wanting it to be the normal, but how can you ever differentiate between who could wrestle and who can't. A penalty is fine, but to drop the hammer on them for not wrestling hurt is silly.

 

[MVPFAN]

I have no idea whether any of the wrestlers had injuries that they could not wrestle through. That is why I believe the rules should be changed to make the MFF more consequential. I believe this will flesh out those wrestlers who are capable of wrestling through their injuries and stop this MFF trend.

And if you make those final matches a loss they still MFF yesterday because it makes no difference either way. A penalty greater than a loss of the next scheduled match because a guy is injured is idiotic and reeks of forcing injured people to take the mat.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I get the injury thing guys, this crap wasn't happening until just recently. New trend, not a good one.
Smiths, Brands, etc.. weren't pulling this crap.
Can you imagine Gable as the coach of these teams and his wrestlers MFF.
He's got to be mortified at what is happening to the sport.

Hmmmm...Nick Moore, Matt McD, Cory Clark come immediately to mind. I suppose it depends what you mean by just recently though. It does seem to me that we have more than our share of racked knees and shoulders. Why? I really don't know.

 

[blcoach80]

If Drake, Jayden, Kem, and Cass all wrestle at NCAAs they will be no where near 100%. Wrestling at 50% seems like a pretty severe punishment to me in itself. If you think these guys are going to come back in 10 days and steam roll thru their bracket you are crazy. Watching them struggle through matches as a shell of themselves is about worse then them MFF imo.

 

[johnyt9]

2. If Cassioppi was trying to protect a seed, then not wrestling Kerk would have been the ticket I guess (although see #1).
--Everybody gets beat by GSteve. No shame in it and the NCAAs won't see this as a non loss.
--Same dumbasses talking this junk would have been like, "Well if he was injured, he shouldn't have sent him out there" if Cass takes a season ender against GSteve. Cass can control the pace and protect his leg against anybody but he can't do it against Steveson because GS imposes his will against everyone.

This has Mineo literally written all over it.
-All week he was saying Rivera is wrestling we won't see him MFF.
-Then he wrestles twice (Mineo says look how good Rivera looks after surgery),
-Rivera MFF to JE and Mineo is saying its the right move (despite him looking so good?)
-Kem MFF and he surprisingly actually defends that (I think Mineo actually watched the match vs Ethan SMith)
-JE, Cass, and Ayala MFF (and he also made up that a 5th guy MFF too) and he jumps on it. He clearly doesnt actually watch their matches. to notice Cass injury against Hilger or the new sleeve and limp against Kerk. JE new knee brace and him limping around in his first two matches.

 

[notlongago]

I don't know whether they were capable of wrestling through their injuries. My point is that the punishment for MFF should be severe enough that only wrestlers who are incapable of wrestling through their injuries should MFF. MFFs in the Conference Championships should not become a successful strategy for wrestlers who are capable of wrestling. The grind of wrestling an entire season is part of what makes becoming an NCAA champion so difficult. If nothing changes, I suspect we will see the number of MFFs increase each year.

I suspect (but I do not know) if this were the NCAA championship, every Iowa wrestler would have been able wrestling.

Why do you think there should be punishment for medically forfeiting?

 

[jmadden1998]

Just for fun I looked up last years Big 10 tourney and Spencer scored 24 points. 1st place with 5 bonus (2 TF’s and a Fall). Drake scored 5.5 this year. Difference was 18.5 points. With no bonus from Spencer and a first place finish we still win because Suriano would not have been the champ and lowered Michigans total.

Team scores 2022

Michigan 143
Penn St 141.5
Iowa 129.5

 

[WPB_lion]

Why do you think there should be punishment for medically forfeiting?

Because the use of the MFF was abused last weekend and I believe if something isn't done, the conference championships will suffer more in the future to the point where they become a joke.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

Because the use of the MFF was abused last weekend and I believe if something isn't done, the conference championships will suffer more in the future to the point where they become a joke.

Let's hope and pray there are not as many injuries next year and then MFF will be a non issue.

 

[jthawk]

Mark my words. This will be the year MFFs will hurt seeding since Iowa did it in the finals twice. Hope I’m wrong.

Because the use of the MFF was abused last weekend and I believe if something isn't done, the conference championships will suffer more in the future to the point where they become a joke.

I’m sorry. I am not a wrestling expert and normally just an observer here. But this is just a terrible post. You have no idea what was going on with each of these wrestlers. No one but the wrestler and trainer really knows this and they need to make decisions based upon the individual’s best interests, not the reputation of a tournament. Your characterization of this being “abused” is selfish speculation based on your need to be entertained.

 

[notlongago]

Because the use of the MFF was abused last weekend and I believe if something isn't done, the conference championships will suffer more in the future to the point where they become a joke.

A joke in what sense? Is it still not a qualifying event? Is it not less important than nationals?