Did the game at the Palestra cost Iowa a chance at a reg season B1G Championship?

[Franisdaman]

Iowa has had one 2 game losing streak all season and it all started at the Palestra.

I think the key part of our season was losing 89-86 on Jan 4 at the STEAMY Palestra and then 76-70 at Nebraska three days later, on Jan 7.

On Jan 4, per the game story from ESPN, the floor temps hovered in the 80s and industrial fans were needed to cool the players. Weezy commented about how he had never sweated so much in a game in his life. We also lost CJ Fredick to injury in this game; he only played 14 minutes. Garza played 35 minutes and missed 7 crucial FTs .

What if that game had been played in Happy Valley, in a normal temp controlled climate, in the morgue of an arena they play in?

Stephen Bardo commented yesterday, Feb 29, during the PSU game how much that game at the Palestra & the travel involved from PA, to Iowa City and then to Lincoln affected Iowa & their shooting legs in both games. CJ did not play in Lincoln. Iowa shot 4-33 from three in that game, losing by 6 points.

Instead of 11-7 in the B1G, we could have been looking at 13-5 and a 1st place tie with Maryland.

All because of the Palestra.

I know, it's water under the bridge, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that we only have had one 2 game losing streak and it started at the Palestra.

 

[birthhawk]

Iowa has had one 2 game losing streak all season and it all started at the Palestra.

I think the key part of our season was losing 89-86 on Jan 4 at the STEAMY Palestra and then 76-70 at Nebraska three days later, on Jan 7.

On Jan 4, per the game story from ESPN, the floor temps hovered in the 80s and industrial fans were needed to cool the players. Weezy commented about how he had never sweated so much in a game in his life. We also lost CJ Fredick to injury in this game; he only played 14 minutes. Garza played 35 minutes and missed 7 crucial FTs .

What if that game had been played in Happy Valley, in a normal temp controlled climate, in the morgue of an arena they play in?

Stephen Bardo commented yesterday, Feb 29, during the PSU game how much that game at the Palestra & the travel involved from PA, to Iowa City and then to Lincoln affected Iowa & their shooting legs in both games. CJ did not play in Lincoln. Iowa shot 4-33 from three in that game, losing by 6 points.

Instead of 11-7 in the B1G, we could have been looking at 13-5 and a 1st place tie with Maryland.

All because of the Palestra.

I know, it's water under the bridge, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that we only have had one 2 game losing streak and it started at the Palestra.

Water under the bridge, sure. But if I'm Fran, I never play another regular season game in that ****ing sauna again.

 

[Birky]

The injury to CJF there might have.

 

[perryhawk]

The injury to CJF there might have.

CJs injury....maybe cost us that game and the Nebraska game.....or JBO being out, or Nunge.

 

[H4wkfan4life]

burn it to the ground!!

 

[TheCDiggity]

The injury to CJF there might have.

Wasnt he already injured before the game? Thought he tried playing thru the stress reaction. Or playing thru pain and then they found the stress reaction.

 

[And1Hawk]

No CJF injuries by far were the biggest factor;

Hurting already coming into the game at the Palestra and played only the first 14 minutes.

Lost at Nebraska (huge loss) without him.

Ankle injury midway through the first half at Indiana missing the next couple.

We don’t win all of those in there we lost, but that’s by far a much bigger factor than playing at the Palestra.

 

[Franisdaman]

The injury to CJF there might have.

he would not have gotten injured at Happy Valley

 

[IllQChawk]

What if Iowa had kept Michigan under 90 at Ann Arbor....yes, 2 can play that game, it is what it is, history can't be changed. This team has battled injuries, a short bench and still produced better then most predicted, think of this season as an appetizer for the main coarse that will be next year.
This team will go as far as Garza, Weeze, Fredrick, Connor, Toussaint, Kriener, Evelyn, and Pemsl can take it.
Hopefully, lots of games remaining to be played this year.
The remaining games may be just as satisfying as the season that Iowa made it to the championship of the NIT. Not predicting the final four, but the farther Iowa goes this year, as young as we are, Iowa could be in for a historic year next season.

 

[anon_i8nzeu2gbf0ba]

The OP makes many excellent points. Iowa didn't have to play at the Palestra. They agreed to PSU's request. They ended up playing in a sauna, losing CJF to injury, and then losing to a horrible Nebbie team because the Hawkeyes were exhausted.

So pondering what might have been is entirely logical because the Palestra was NOT a venue Iowa HAD to play in.

Sure, it's over, and there's nothing Iowa can do about it now. But that does nothing to negate the facts the OP presents.

 

[Franisdaman]

The OP makes many excellent points. Iowa didn't have to play at the Palestra. They agreed to PSU's request. They ended up playing in a sauna, losing CJF to injury, and then losing to a horrible Nebbie team because the Hawkeyes were exhausted.

So pondering what might have been is entirely logical because the Palestra was NOT a venue Iowa HAD to play in.

Sure, it's over, and there's nothing Iowa can do about it now. But that does nothing to negate the facts the OP presents.

I just find it interesting, too, that it was brought up during yesterday's broadcast. They pointed to the Palestra when explaining how Iowa lost at Nebraska.

 

[Hawksfor3]

Nebby, the NET killer.

 

[MAXIMUSHAWKEYE]

That Nebby game will cost the Hawks a double bye in the BIG tourney. I think we still lose to PSU at State college. But we wouldn't have been gassed for the Nebby game. But who could have dreamed Iowa would be this good after the Depaul game. And losing JBo for the season. Thanks to Garza though. Its been a fantastic season.

 

[TouchdownMyPants]

No

 

[hawkifann]

Iowa has had one 2 game losing streak all season and it all started at the Palestra.

I think the key part of our season was losing 89-86 on Jan 4 at the STEAMY Palestra and then 76-70 at Nebraska three days later, on Jan 7.

On Jan 4, per the game story from ESPN, the floor temps hovered in the 80s and industrial fans were needed to cool the players. Weezy commented about how he had never sweated so much in a game in his life. We also lost CJ Fredick to injury in this game; he only played 14 minutes. Garza played 35 minutes and missed 7 crucial FTs .

What if that game had been played in Happy Valley, in a normal temp controlled climate, in the morgue of an arena they play in?

Stephen Bardo commented yesterday, Feb 29, during the PSU game how much that game at the Palestra & the travel involved from PA, to Iowa City and then to Lincoln affected Iowa & their shooting legs in both games. CJ did not play in Lincoln. Iowa shot 4-33 from three in that game, losing by 6 points.

Instead of 11-7 in the B1G, we could have been looking at 13-5 and a 1st place tie with Maryland.

All because of the Palestra.

I know, it's water under the bridge, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that we only have had one 2 game losing streak and it started at the Palestra.

Having lived in Philly for 6+ years in the late 1990s/early 2000s, I LOVE the Palestra. I can't speak to the heat problem that day, but I would put the 2-game losing streak much more on the CJF injury than the Palestra being hot.

 

[hawkifann]

No CJF injuries by far were the biggest factor;

Hurting already coming into the game at the Palestra and played only the first 14 minutes.

Lost at Nebraska (huge loss) without him.

Ankle injury midway through the first half at Indiana missing the next couple.

We don’t win all of those in there we lost, but that’s by far a much bigger factor than playing at the Palestra.

If CJF had no injuries this year, I think he flips the script for sure @Nebraska. Maybe Iowa wins at the Palestra if CJF plays a full game, but that's probably about it for potential changed outcomes.

 

[Birky]

Wasnt he already injured before the game? Thought he tried playing thru the stress reaction. Or playing thru pain and then they found the stress reaction.

Probably, but he played in the first half, and not in the second.

 

[sanjosebill]

Can’t really play the “what if?” Game because every team has “what if’s”.

What if MSU didn’t lose Langford and choke their first game against Maryland?

What if Ayo Dosumo didn’t get hurt for Illinois?

What if Wisconsin didn’t lose Kobe King and had Micah Potter all season?

What if Maryland didn’t lose on last second 3 to Wisconsin?

Might be blasphemy to say this but Iowa might be in a worse position with Bohannon and Nunge because whose minutes are they taking? Does it give less time to Connor or Frederick and does that mean less development for those guys? JBo isn’t ex

 

[Franisdaman]

The injury to CJF there might have.

CJs injury....maybe cost us that game and the Nebraska game.....or JBO being out, or Nunge.

No CJF injuries by far were the biggest factor;

Hurting already coming into the game at the Palestra and played only the first 14 minutes.

Lost at Nebraska (huge loss) without him.

Ankle injury midway through the first half at Indiana missing the next couple.

We don’t win all of those in there we lost, but that’s by far a much bigger factor than playing at the Palestra.

That Nebby game will cost the Hawks a double bye in the BIG tourney. I think we still lose to PSU at State college. But we wouldn't have been gassed for the Nebby game. But who could have dreamed Iowa would be this good after the Depaul game. And losing JBo for the season. Thanks to Garza though. Its been a fantastic season.

No

Having lived in Philly for 6+ years in the late 1990s/early 2000s, I LOVE the Palestra. I can't speak to the heat problem that day, but I would put the 2-game losing streak much more on the CJF injury than the Palestra being hot.

Remember that in that 3 point loss at the Palestra, a very gassed Garza played 35 minutes and missed 7 crucial Free Throws. Missing FTs is common when playing in a sauna for 35 minutes.

I went back to the 2nd half of Saturday's game and re-watched what they said. Actually, the 2 announcers said the game at the Palestra affected both PSU and Iowa in their road games 3 days later (PSU at Rutgers; Iowa at Debbie). They said NEITHER PSU nor Iowa had their shooting legs after that grueling game at the Palestra.

When they were discussing Iowa's resume and the loss at Debbie, the lead announcer said he wanted to put TWO asterisks by the Debbie loss.

* No CJ Fredrick
* The playing conditions at the Palestra on Jan 4 affected BOTH PSU and Iowa not only in the game on Jan 4 but BOTH teams' next game on Jan 7.

Bardo said neither team had their shooting legs in the games that followed 3 days later. And as you can see, he is right. Neither PSU nor Iowa could hit the broad side of a barn from deep three days after the Palestra game.

Jan 7: Penn State shooting at Rutgers (72-61 loss)
06-26 (23%) from 3 point land (20 misses!)
16-35 (46%) 2 point FGs
.................................................
22-61 (36%) Overall
.................................................


Jan 7: Iowa shooting at Debbie (76-70 loss)
04-33 (12%) from 3 point land (29 misses!)
28-44 (64%) 2 point FGs
.................................................
32-77(42%) Overall
.................................................

 

[General Tso]

Pretty sure other teams have travelled and played at the Palestra in it's history. But yes, that two game stretch had huge implications.

 

[Suterman]

What ifs are exhausting and pointless. Iowa has had 40 years of what ifs. What if Iowa actually won enough games to win a championship?

 

[Franisdaman]

What ifs are exhausting and pointless. Iowa has had 40 years of what ifs. What if Iowa actually won enough games to win a championship?

pointless? then why was it discussed at length during the broadcast?

 

[Suterman]

pointless? then why was it discussed at length during the broadcast?

They are pointless because they don't change anything. They are hindsight which as you know is 20/20.

 

[hawkfan0319]

I just find it interesting, too, that it was brought up during yesterday's broadcast. They pointed to the Palestra when explaining how Iowa lost at Nebraska.

I heard them mention that as well, and that Penn State lost their next game as well to start a 3 game losing streak (Rutgers, Wiscy, Minny).

 

[Rifler]

Frederick's injuries in general have cost us this year,... @ Penn State, @ Nebraska, @ Indiana & @ Michigan State loses were all impacted by his absence,.. With a healthy CJ I would expect us to win two, if not three of those games..

 

[Bee93]

Ifs and buts were candy and nuts blah, blah, blah. Hypotheticals are fun but mainly pointless. Making excuses is the mating call of the loser. Enjoy every minute that remains this year. Is that enough cliches to throw out for this thread?
In all seriousness, the one point I’ve been worried about going forward is Garza’s free throw issues. Hack a Luka might get employed somewhere going forward.

 

[Rifler]

And the other thing I noticed during CJ's absences is that without him on the floor to draw the defense, Joe Weiskamp's game also went into the toilet,.. So no CJ plus no Joe equals no offense...

 

[83Hawk]

Penn State played that game, too. The conditions weren’t any different for them.

 

[MepoDawg#]

Penn State played that game, too. The conditions weren’t any different for them.

And they had a 3 game losing streak after it. If Iowa finishes behind PSU, it’s not on that one game.

 

[markfromj]

No more than any other loss.

 

[Jumpshot00]

One of the most impressive things about the season is Iowa has had 1 and only 1 2 game losing streak. Considering the strength/depth of the Big Ten, the overall difficulty of the schedule coming into the season, its been pretty great to see the resiliency of this team. Each time something negative happens it doesn't destroy them. Instead they grow and someone else picks up.

 

[paladinhawk]

pointless? then why was it discussed at length during the broadcast?

To fill out 'on air' time? At least it wasn't Bill Walton talking about getting high or Dackich blathering on about the after game handshake line, but to view it as a serious discussion?

 

[Franisdaman]

To fill out 'on air' time? At least it wasn't Bill Walton talking about getting high or Dackich blathering on about the after game handshake line, but to view it as a serious discussion?

It had nothing to do with trying to fill up on air time.

they had Iowa's resume on the screen and they discussed the Debbie loss. Then they discussed the game at the Palestra and how it affected both PSU and Iowa 3 days later where neither PSU (at Rutgers) nor Iowa (at Debbie) had their shooting legs.

 

[Ronman]

"Would ofs" and "Should ofs" are interesting to discuss, but seriously, no one on this board, given the injuries and make up of our roster, would have predicted a B1G Championship in November. We've had some downs this season, but what we really got was probably the most fun season in recent memory. Garza's ascension to NPOY status and the revelation that has been CJF, have made me a pretty happy Hawkeye fan. Did they attain all the goals possible? No, but they did overachieve in the eyes of many and if everyone returns for next season, they just may finally put a truly magical season together.

 

[KcTo]

My gosh gentlemen, CJF is a fine offensive player and may well have been the difference at Nebraska, but let’s keep in mind other factors:

Neb has lost 8 games at home, none of those teams had CJF on the roster, so it’s is definitely possible to win with out CJF.

well what could Iowa have possibly done different withOUT CJF.

1. A simple theory is if your not making your outside shot, is what? Anyone? Maybe try to go inside? Especially if you’ve got size advantages?

Iowa shots 4-33 from 3, and 28-44 from 2 pt range, 63%.
Maybe Fran should have emphasized getting the ball to his inside shooters? Could 7 less 3’s turn into 2pt FGA = 8pts, or the game.

2. Don’t let your worst shooter shoot more times than your player of the year? Maybe Fran should have not let JoeTO, the worst shooter in the team, shoot 18x? Maybe JoeTO could have given 8 of the shot attempts to Kreiner and pemsl who both shoot over 63% and 52% for 2pt shots. 8 shots time 50% is another way that Fran could be coached better in this game.

3. Maybe if Fran doesn’t play JoeTO for 35m, resulting in 11 missed shot and 4 TOS (versus 4 Assists) and if fran gives 20 of the minutes to Kriener’s and Pemsl, (5FG in 10FGA), and they produce at their approximate current pace, Iowa scores more (and also prevents more scoring.).

I,do get that graza is being doubled, but for gods sake, he can also go outside lane, high or wing and look for mismatches inside, had Iowa gone real big, all 3 bigs, there would have been multiple mismatches inside leading to high % FGA.

if you ask me, Freb Hoiberg completely out coaches Fran by baiting him into shooting 3s, and Fran not able to adjust by demanding that the ball goes inside to others that are capable inside scorers ( while Garza draws the double team).

Having CJF would’ve been nice, but Iowa shoulda won that game with out him...

 

[myteamcanbeatupyourteam]

Win that PSU game and reverse that abortion of a game at Debbie and the Hawks are tied for 1st

 

[DodgerHawki]

My gosh gentlemen, CJF is a fine offensive player and may well have been the difference at Nebraska, but let’s keep in mind other factors:

Neb has lost 8 games at home, none of those teams had CJF on the roster, so it’s is definitely possible to win with out CJF.

well what could Iowa have possibly done different withOUT CJF.

1. A simple theory is if your not making your outside shot, is what? Anyone? Maybe try to go inside? Especially if you’ve got size advantages?

Iowa shots 4-33 from 3, and 28-44 from 2 pt range, 63%.
Maybe Fran should have emphasized getting the ball to his inside shooters? Could 7 less 3’s turn into 2pt FGA = 8pts, or the game.

2. Don’t let your worst shooter shoot more times than your player of the year? Maybe Fran should have not let JoeTO, the worst shooter in the team, shoot 18x? Maybe JoeTO could have given 8 of the shot attempts to Kreiner and pemsl who both shoot over 63% and 52% for 2pt shots. 8 shots time 50% is another way that Fran could be coached better in this game.

3. Maybe if Fran doesn’t play JoeTO for 35m, resulting in 11 missed shot and 4 TOS (versus 4 Assists) and if fran gives 20 of the minutes to Kriener’s and Pemsl, (5FG in 10FGA), and they produce at their approximate current pace, Iowa scores more (and also prevents more scoring.).

I,do get that graza is being doubled, but for gods sake, he can also go outside lane, high or wing and look for mismatches inside, had Iowa gone real big, all 3 bigs, there would have been multiple mismatches inside leading to high % FGA.

if you ask me, Freb Hoiberg completely out coaches Fran by baiting him into shooting 3s, and Fran not able to adjust by demanding that the ball goes inside to others that are capable inside scorers ( while Garza draws the double team).

Having CJF would’ve been nice, but Iowa shoulda won that game with out him...

It was the confluence of a lot of events in that game at Nebraska. Iowa coming off OT loss, without one of its best players. Playing a terrible team. Then Nebraska plays Iowa weirdly by putting 3-4 guys on Garza, just daring Iowa to take wide-open 3's. No one can make any. At that point in time of the season, Pemsl had been terrible. He and Kriener couldn't guard Thorbjanarson, who had the game of his life with 17 points. Fran did put Pemsl in at the under-4 timeout, and Pemsl proceeded to turn the ball over 2 straight times and the game was over.

I'm not arguing that more Kriener/Pemsl and/or big lineup might have made the difference. Obviously it might have. Iowa couldn't space the floor. Toussaint was not very good either that night, but Evelyn was also bad. 0-3 in 15 minutes, 3 fouls. Basically no one on the Iowa team played worth a darn except for Garza and Wieskamp going to the basket. And even Garza struggled, getting 16 points on 15 shots.

 

[LaQuintaHawkeye]

Two terrible losses in the state of Indiana hurt just as much.

 

[Hawksfor3]

I heard them mention that as well, and that Penn State lost their next game as well to start a 3 game losing streak (Rutgers, Wiscy, Minny).

No more Palestra. Ah, no. No way.

 

[Franisdaman]

It was the confluence of a lot of events in that game at Nebraska. Iowa coming off OT loss, without one of its best players. Playing a terrible team. Then Nebraska plays Iowa weirdly by putting 3-4 guys on Garza, just daring Iowa to take wide-open 3's. No one can make any. At that point in time of the season, Pemsl had been terrible. He and Kriener couldn't guard Thorbjanarson, who had the game of his life with 17 points. Fran did put Pemsl in at the under-4 timeout, and Pemsl proceeded to turn the ball over 2 straight times and the game was over.

I'm not arguing that more Kriener/Pemsl and/or big lineup might have made the difference. Obviously it might have. Iowa couldn't space the floor. Toussaint was not very good either that night, but Evelyn was also bad. 0-3 in 15 minutes, 3 fouls. Basically no one on the Iowa team played worth a darn except for Garza and Wieskamp going to the basket. And even Garza struggled, getting 16 points on 15 shots.

Like I said, both announcers brought up the Palestra and how it affected both PSU & Iowa in their next game 3 days later. Neither PSU nor Iowa could hit the broad side of a barn in their next game. Bardo said neither PSU nor Iowa had their shooting legs 3 days later and the shooting percentages from 3 prove it. It's not a coincidence.

Note, too, that the announcers talk to the head coach during shoot around in the afternoon of the games. There is no doubt in my mind that Fran brought up and discussed with Bardo the brutal conditions in the Palestra and how it impacted the Debbie game 3 days later.