Jordan Burroughs is another great example. He wasn't the same guy in 08 at 149 as he was the rest of his college and international career.
The 08 149 bracket is still the toughest one that I've ever seen. The 8 AA's are unreal.
Fix to 125
- Thread starter Inspiteofourselves
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Jordan Burroughs is another great example. He wasn't the same guy in 08 at 149 as he was the rest of his college and international career.
The 08 149 bracket is still the toughest one that I've ever seen. The 8 AA's are unreal.
Reverse that and the 2021 version of Spencer doesn't even win his 2019 bracket, and most of the other brackets in the 2000's. But he did and his record stands.
Couldn't disagree with you more. That Spencer STILL won 16-1, 15-5, 10-2, 11-0 and 7-0. To say he loses any of them with any degree of certainty is beyond laughable, let alone saying he loses most of them, which is plain STUPID...
Spencer would beat most all NCAA champs from the last 20 years. There is an argument for Stephen Abas pushing Spencer but I do not see any others with his credentials.
You are entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to call you stupid because of it. But I do not believe the 2021 Spencer Lee in St Louis would win most of the 125 brackets in the 2000-2020 era. He was really hurting there. We can agree to disagree.
Orange invite already taken?
I don't disagree. I think there is a bias against Lee because of the lack of a really big challenger. That's not his fault. However, he's likely to get picked off by a couple of those other champions. I mean, he has been beaten a number of times by lesser wrestlers. That said, a 100% healthy Spencer Lee is better than all of them. The problem is, we have probably never seen that version.
Nato was like 100-8 and he was 1 Spencer Lee and 2 points away from being a 4 time finalist and probably multiple time champ. He did go 1,3,3,3. Pretty solid challenger there one would think. And he had suriano in the same bracket who was a three time finalist and 2 time champ. Who were nolf and zain’s big challenges? The only one nolf had beat him in the finals. And he should’ve lost to hidlay. Zain had zero time champ Sorensen (who I love). Bo had Martin and dean. Pretty comparable to nato and suriano actually. DT got beaten by Jenkins and his big challenger dake. The more I think about this, the more I’m thinking the psu greats were fortunate to not have any big challengers…glad you brought this up. But all spencer has done is win his finals. Crazy. If and when spencer gets his fourth, he will be better than any psu wrestler ever…I’m fine with that. And I hope if brooks and star get their 4th (5th) you bring up their lack of competition when comparing them to Lee or anybody else. Speaking of, Carl had some pretty damn easy brackets. He’d have lost to most of the guys in the past 20 years too given his lack of big challengers. I like this logic.
To be clear, I was NOT calling you stupid, just that argument. I have said plenty of stupid things in my life, but I am pretty sure I am not stupid. So, I willingly apply the same hope for you!
Did you accidentally leave out Suriano, who won 2 and Spencer beat as a true frosh?
Well I guess since you're making the point, Lee actually lost 5 times. Those other guys didn't. And just to further cover the bases, Taylor lost 3 times. Once to an NCAA champion and twice to a 4 time NCAA Champion. Zain lost 3 times his freshman year. Twice to a 4 time NCAA Champion, and once to Mitchell Port (kind of a Ronnie Bresser type). Nolf lost 3 times. Twice as a freshman to a 3 time NCAA Champ and one injury default.
So all things being equal...well, they're just not.
I'm not trying to diminish Spencer. He's really good at wrestling. He will go down as an all-time great. But most fans outside of Iowa will never put him in the top 4 all time.
He will always be behind Cael, Gable, and Dake. That doesn't leave much room at the top. He just lost too many times to be placed there. It is what it is.
You do seem to conveniently forget that all of Spencer's losses were in early days of comeback from serious injuries. Except for Piccinini.
Who specifically beats him? And I do think his health, or lack thereof, has to be considered when discussing his overall greatness. It is a factor because there are numerous athletes who could have been great had it not been for an injury. But if you are going to compare him to those of the past, you need to use the best and most healthy version of him. Who knows, by the end of this year, it may very well be 2023?
None of them are to David Taylor though……….
165 may eclipse that bracket this year. 3 champs and at least 1 finalist.
Ok, lets break it down a bit further. 1st you have to look at SLs wins and his bonus %. It is pretty ridiculous! 2nd, you have to take a look at what he has done at NCAAs. Someone posted above I believe 1 year, but he has gone through 3 tournaments like a Buzz saw!
Many great wrestlers are mentioned here. None of them have gone through the NCAAs never in doubt of losing a match as Lee has done. I think his closest match was 5-0! His closest match was a shut out, guy didn't score a point!
Now if you want to pretend that anyone could beat a 100% SL, please go right ahead. Once again I would also like to point out the Freestyle tournament(think it was the trails?) that he wrestled in a few years back. You want to point to competition!?!?!
Someone please post that Tournament(or I will)! He not only beat many of our very best, but he made them look stupid in the process and this is NOT a knock on any of them. It was obviously the healthiest he has been while in college and he DESTROYED everyone in front of him!
THIS^^^^^^ is what many do not get and/or the trolls want to try and navigate around. Which of the wrestles you have mentioned, or better yet, name anyone but Dan Gable who has gone through a trails like that?
I will wait- ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Spencer Lee is the best wrestler on the planet!!!
Many great wrestlers are mentioned here. None of them have gone through the NCAAs never in doubt of losing a match as Lee has done. I think his closest match was 5-0! His closest match was a shut out, guy didn't score a point!
Now if you want to pretend that anyone could beat a 100% SL, please go right ahead. Once again I would also like to point out the Freestyle tournament(think it was the trails?) that he wrestled in a few years back. You want to point to competition!?!?!
Someone please post that Tournament(or I will)! He not only beat many of our very best, but he made them look stupid in the process and this is NOT a knock on any of them. It was obviously the healthiest he has been while in college and he DESTROYED everyone in front of him!
THIS^^^^^^ is what many do not get and/or the trolls want to try and navigate around. Which of the wrestles you have mentioned, or better yet, name anyone but Dan Gable who has gone through a trails like that?
I will wait- ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
Spencer Lee is the best wrestler on the planet!!!
In total, he wrestled 54 freestyle matches from the summer going into his freshman year until the summer going into his senior year of high school. Here are the numbers:
- 50-4 record
- 40 techs (74.1%)
- 9 pins
- 90.7% bonus rate
- 3 World Titles
Spencer Lee decisively wins U.S. Senior Nationals gold
Iowa two-time NCAA champion Spencer Lee decided to forego an Olympic redshirt season, opting to balance his junior season with the Hawkeyes and men's freestyle competition to make a run at the 2020 U.S. Olympic Team.
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The three-time World champion returned to freestyle competition for the first time since winning a 2016 World Championships gold, which was his second straight Junior title after one as a Cadet in 2014.
Lee earned a berth to the U.S. Olympic Team Trials with a top-five showing and capped his dominant performance with an 8-2 victory over former Ohio State NCAA champion Nathan Tomasello in the finals of the U.S. Senior Nationals in Fort Worth, Texas.
'It was funny,' Lee said in a post-match interview. 'We didn't train that much freestyle, honestly.
'I pretty much did all the college-guy workouts, not the Hawkeye Wrestling Club workouts. They say wrestling is wrestling and I believe that, so I trust them. I just did what I could.'
What he can do and did do was throttle the field, outscoring foes 52-6 in five bouts. Four of those were by technical fall.
'I felt pretty good. A little rusty, I think, shaking some cobwebs off, but I felt pretty confident with my skills when I did go to the attack. I just have to keep going to the attack.'
THIS^^^^^ WRESTLED college season, did not train FS!
Wrestling: Iowa's Spencer Lee wins Senior Nationals, qualifies for 2020 U.S. Olympic Trials
Iowa's Spencer Lee took a giant step toward making the 2020 U.S. Olympic team this weekend.
www.hawkcentral.com
The 57-kilo bracket included six total NCAA champs, dozens of past All-Americans, a Junior world silver medalist, a U23 world-teamer, in addition to several other credentialed wrestlers. Lee, a two-time NCAA champion and a three-time age-level world champ himself, outscored his five opponents a combined 52-6.
Take it for what it’s worth but I’m being told it was decided over the holidays and it is happening. I’m sure plans can change, but I’m being told the drop is in progress.
Ummm you just proved my point that you tried to make about Spencer. Who are their big challengers that they beat to win these ships? They lost, for the most part, to the studs that they wrestled at NCAA’s. Spencer did not. Nickal gets an = sign from me until Spencer gets his 4th and then no sir. I know how good nolf and the like were. But you came here talking about Spencer probably losing to the champs of the past 20 years at 125 because he hasn’t had any real challenges. That was laid to rest and so were psu’s greats by your logic. They lost to their big time challengers. Cheers!
apparently Fix is going down to 125 so Vito vs RBY could be the finals and Vito is capable of knocking him off if he is wrestling his best.
Fix has been interviewed this year and he said that there is no one he wants to beat more than RBY to win his title... After losing twice to him in close matches, I can understand the desire to win it against him. Also, RBY has not looked as sharp this year. Knee is taped and didn't move as well in the match I watched.... He might be coming back from something as well. If RBY is not 100% no way he wins.
I won’t offer any negative thoughts on where Spencer stands all-time on an Iowa board. But I’ll defend his so-called lack of a legit challenger when, as a true freshman, he pinned NATO in the semis and then beat Suriano, a 2-time champ who won at both 125 and 133, in the finals.
Additionally, while he didn’t have to face SeaBass in the 2019 tourney, he was in the bracket.
Additionally, while he didn’t have to face SeaBass in the 2019 tourney, he was in the bracket.
@IRONBIRD with 6 consecutive posts in 22 minutes. Nice work.
It feels good to blow one's lungs out. Spencer probably appreciates your joining him there, in addition to your unwavering support.
It feels good to blow one's lungs out. Spencer probably appreciates your joining him there, in addition to your unwavering support.
RBY looks the same as any other year. He's great enough that he doesn't have to go out there and just focus on getting a win especially against inferior opponents. He can use matches to work on things and get even better. Nolf was this kinda guy. Nickal was another one. They were fun to watch because they didn't wrestle matches in a traditional sense until the post season or against guys somewhat close to their level. They almost "play wrestle" and at times gave up legs and put themselves into positions were they were challenged. Watch RBYs matches this year, he gives up his legs...he even looks bored at times. Spencer could be that kinda guy but instead chooses to just punish people and end things as soon as possible. I personally feel it's a coaching thing and a room mentality... and difference between the way Brands goes about preparing his guys and the way Cael does it.
You could be right, but I've watched RBY a lot over the years and I see something different this year. Not wishing it so, wouldn't want anybody to wrestle banged up. Just stating an informed opinion after watching him throughout his career. Again, I could be totally wrong, but so could you? The guy I saw, won't beat Fix again.
Honestly, the bald one only decisioned Trenge and Cormier. Both very good wrestlers, not champs. When you are up on a different level, it’s easy to criticize. (Btw he did lose his ‘true frosh’ year and no injuries for him.. still the greatest college wrestler) Spencer is elite, you’ll catch coaches in other corners ‘wow’ during his matches against tough opponents.
Yeah, I could be wrong.. it's all opinion. I'll only add this, the only sense I get with RBY is he and coaching staff are easing him into the season . Last year when everyone had Iowa winning it all, I felt their downfall would be injury and those 6 and 7 year guys burning out and HEW. Should I think RBY is somehow immune to all that? Naw....I don't. I think what you are seeing with RBY is not an injury but a concerted effort to slowly reach peak but more importantly the staff and RBY keeping the season f** for him. You guys talk "secret sauce" but I think what is different at PSU is right in front of everyone's face. Cael says over and over again that it's not so much about winning its more about getting better and having fun. I think most feel thats just Cael blowing smoke up our asses but in reality I think it's truth. I say this because come March every year, their guys are almost always better.
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