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MSU158 said:
History shows? LMFAO. Iowa has now taken 5th exactly TWICE under Brands. Iowa scored 97 points the year after the 1st time they took 5th.
On top of that, what history is there where Iowa loses 4 starters(2 AA's that scored 24.5 points the year prior and even Assad would have made a giant difference at 184) from the year before due to gambling charges?

Your narrative is getting older and more decrepit than Sleepy Joe looks now... Is Iowa way behind PSU? No question. What PSU is doing is unprecedented. But, your Iowa "history" under Brands take is epic GARBAGE. Iowa was the clear best team in 2020 and 2021. They took 2nd in 2023 and would ABSOLUTELY have been the clear 2nd best team last year if not for Iowa being the ONLY state in the country where the government went after college gambling...

As an aside, would you like to bet money that Iowa finishes ahead of everyone but PSU this year? You are so high on DT and OkState now, how about we bet on just those 2 teams????
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Have we devolved to the point of hanging our hat on team finishes that happened 5 years ago? Yes PSU is still on a roll, but here’s an idea: adapt and get better…or continue to be left in the dust.

The fact is Iowa, under Brands, doesn’t seem to be an ideal destination for elite recruits on a consistent basis. That has to change. Beth missed her chance with DT and we know TB refuses to change, so we’re stuck in purgatory until he retires.
 
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vhsalum said:
Then it's time to prove at NCAAs. Even with the gambling losses last year we underperformed versus our pre/regular season results. So fine, a mea culpa on last year.

So we have a bet for 2nd. Or just okiest/iowa finishes?
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Underperformed? By what metric?

125: Ayala took 2nd. There is NO reasonable metric going into last season where Ayala taking 2nd is anything other than a VERY positive performance. That weight had 12-15 guys that could all beat each other without it being an upset.
133: Teske was R12 with 2 bonus point victories. Again, a net positive performance.
141: Woods took 4th, with a very debilitating injury. Still, a slight underperformance rating is fair.
149: Rathjen was seeded to score 1.5 points and scored 2.5. Got lucky with an injury win, but still outkicked his coverage.
157: Franek was the 10 seed and AA'd. By that metric, he overperformed. Still, I would say his history at NCAA's puts that as a slight underperformance.
165: Caliendo took 4th in an absolute meatgrinder of a weight class. The dude absolutely wrestled his AZZ off and I would say it was the absolute best possible result he could have garnered.
174: Kennedy-Undersized and too flat-footed, he was seeded to make R12 and that is exactly what he did...
184: DNQ-This and 285 are where the gambling CRUSHED them.
197: Glazier-I know this is where many look squarely to when they try to point to Iowa underperformance, but I made my opinion on Glazier pretty well known during the season(and was attacked pretty hard for it). The guy overachieved throughout the season wrestling a very weak schedule, by no fault of his own. Once he hit a tournament with the top 33 at the weight, he fell back to the mean, as I expected.
285: Hill-This guy wrestled his AZZ off. Considering his talent level, he probably maximized his performance more than anyone on the team, excepting Caliendo...

As far as any bet goes, you can think about either for a bit. Once the season starts, you can toss one or the other(or both) at me and we can work out the particulars...
 
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TailgateTom said:
Have we devolved to the point of hanging our hat on team finishes that happened 5 years ago? Yes PSU is still on a roll, but here’s an idea: adapt and get better…or continue to be left in the dust.

The fact is Iowa, under Brands, doesn’t seem to be an ideal destination for elite recruits on a consistent basis. That has to change. Beth missed her chance with DT and we know TB refuses to change, so we’re stuck in purgatory until he retires.
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Your stance on "adapting" is where we differ. I think Iowa has adapted quite a bit with how tenacious they have been in the transfer portal. Now, yes, I do agree that they need to start recruiting better. That is the ONLY way they can truly challenge PSU. But, I do not agree that they aren't recruiting "well". They are still recruiting better than every other team but PSU, it is just that PSU has raised the recruiting bar so high that everyone now has "unrealistic" recruiting expectations.

Iowa has landed at least 1 top 10 recruit(except 2019, when Assad was the highest in the 20's and 2022 could also be argued against, the way Chittum worked out) every season going back to 2015 with Kemerer. Before that, Brands focused on depth over top 10's. Normally, that would be considered very good recruiting. But, when you have PSU landing FOUR top 10s and another top 15 in 2024, that measure gets drastically skewed....
 
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MSU158 said:
Your stance on "adapting" is where we differ. I think Iowa has adapted quite a bit with how tenacious they have been in the transfer portal. Now, yes, I do agree that they need to start recruiting better. That is the ONLY way they can truly challenge PSU. But, I do not agree that they aren't recruiting "well". They are still recruiting better than every other team but PSU, it is just that PSU has raised the recruiting bar so high that everyone now has "unrealistic" recruiting expectations.

Iowa has landed at least 1 top 10 recruit(except 2019, when Assad was the highest in the 20's and 2022 could also be argued against, the way Chittum worked out) every season going back to 2015 with Kemerer. Before that, Brands focused on depth over top 10's. Normally, that would be considered very good recruiting. But, when you have PSU landing FOUR top 10s and another top 15 in 2024, that measure gets drastically skewed....
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So we either be content with MAYBE one top 10/year while Penn State lands multiple nearly every year, or we adapt and match that effort. One scenario keeps where we are, the other gives us a chance.

I know what I’d pick.
 
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TailgateTom said:
So we either be content with MAYBE one top 10/year while Penn State lands multiple nearly every year, or we adapt and match that effort. One scenario keeps where we are, the other gives us a chance.

I know what I’d pick.
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In an Iowa centric, magical world, your answer is doable. You could wave your magic wand and make it so. The problem is this world AIN'T that by a long shot.

NOONE is "content". I want Brands figuring out ways to attract more recruits as much as you do. I just have a much more realistic viewpoint than you do. You, obviously think "adapting" and "matching" PSU is considerably easier than I do. Hell, right now, I DO NOT see a way where ANY coach or team could come anywhere close to recruiting like PSU just did in 2024. 4 top 10's and another in the top 15? That shouldn't even be possible.

Look, I really am NOT a Brands apologist. Nor, do I think Iowa fans shouldn't want first place finishes no matter what. My argument is mainly with the many on here that show a serious disconnect between blaming Brands for Iowa being so far behind PSU, without giving PSU all the ridiculous credit they deserve for what they created.

To be clear, I am NOT a PSU fan. I make it very obvious by how hard I mess with nearly every PSU fan I can. But, that doesn't mean I am anywhere close to deaf, dumb or blind. They have damn near cornered the DI wrestling market and have pretty much created the equivalent to a Monopoly in the sport. Their resources dwarf 99% of DI teams. Their coaching staff is as marquee as it can possibly get. Their location is 2nd to none, by a large margin. They have created an RTC so far ahead of everyone else, they could very well end up being the only 1 left for local guys, with Michigan only sustaining itself due to its foreign connections and incredible Russian coach.

Lastly, and most importantly, they have now created a legacy that will nearly sell itself. I hate to say it, but as long as Cael and Casey are there, what Brands just pulled off the last cycle, is about the most realistic thing you can hope for. You HAVE TO land a transcendent guy like Spencer, while mixing in very high end recruits like Kemerer, Warner, Cass and Marinell. Even then, you still need to land a couple monster transfers like DeSanto and Eierman.

Let that last part sink in. That is an incredible team that Brands assembled and even that team would be pushed to the limit by what PSU has now become. I get the angst as Iowa fans. You are the most rabid and loyal fanbase in the sport. I just push back hard against the narrative that Brands is doing such a bad job without realizing just how ridiculous PSU has become...
 
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vhsalum said:
Come on man. This is a message board. The entire point is varying opinions. And what is there to cheer currently? We finished 5th last year and we're all hoping this year will be better. But history shows, why should we believe that?
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Last year we finished 5th but that is not the norm. We should have finished 2nd. If gambling gate does not happen we finish 2nd easily. If we wrestle Kueter and Gabe we take 2nd easily. I still think we should have wrestled Gabe and BK. Finishing 2nd does matter in my eyes.
 
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Inspiteofourselves said:
Last year we finished 5th but that is not the norm. We should have finished 2nd. If gambling gate does not happen we finish 2nd easily. If we wrestle Kueter and Gabe we take 2nd easily. I still think we should have wrestled Gabe and BK. Finishing 2nd does matter in my eyes.
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100% I agree with you here. Not sure about Kueter - he still wasn't in shape late.

but considering Welsh made the finals? Yeah. Arnold could have been in the finals and that's big points.
 
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MSU158 said:
In an Iowa centric, magical world, your answer is doable. You could wave your magic wand and make it so. The problem is this world AIN'T that by a long shot.

NOONE is "content". I want Brands figuring out ways to attract more recruits as much as you do. I just have a much more realistic viewpoint than you do. You, obviously think "adapting" and "matching" PSU is considerably easier than I do. Hell, right now, I DO NOT see a way where ANY coach or team could come anywhere close to recruiting like PSU just did in 2024. 4 top 10's and another in the top 15? That shouldn't even be possible.

Look, I really am NOT a Brands apologist. Nor, do I think Iowa fans shouldn't want first place finishes no matter what. My argument is mainly with the many on here that show a serious disconnect between blaming Brands for Iowa being so far behind PSU, without giving PSU all the ridiculous credit they deserve for what they created.

To be clear, I am NOT a PSU fan. I make it very obvious by how hard I mess with nearly every PSU fan I can. But, that doesn't mean I am anywhere close to deaf, dumb or blind. They have damn near cornered the DI wrestling market and have pretty much created the equivalent to a Monopoly in the sport. Their resources dwarf 99% of DI teams. Their coaching staff is as marquee as it can possibly get. Their location is 2nd to none, by a large margin. They have created an RTC so far ahead of everyone else, they could very well end up being the only 1 left for local guys, with Michigan only sustaining itself due to its foreign connections and incredible Russian coach.

Lastly, and most importantly, they have now created a legacy that will nearly sell itself. I hate to say it, but as long as Cael and Casey are there, what Brands just pulled off the last cycle, is about the most realistic thing you can hope for. You HAVE TO land a transcendent guy like Spencer, while mixing in very high end recruits like Kemerer, Warner, Cass and Marinell. Even then, you still need to land a couple monster transfers like DeSanto and Eierman.

Let that last part sink in. That is an incredible team that Brands assembled and even that team would be pushed to the limit by what PSU has now become. I get the angst as Iowa fans. You are the most rabid and loyal fanbase in the sport. I just push back hard against the narrative that Brands is doing such a bad job without realizing just how ridiculous PSU has become...
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I don't want you thinking I'm not appreciating what Penn State has done. As much as it pains me, Carl should 100% be given the max amount of credit. As you pointed out, Cael is able to bring in a massive amount of talent on a consistent basis. Brands cannot. After all these years, he has proven that he can't.
 
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MSU158 said:
In an Iowa centric, magical world, your answer is doable. You could wave your magic wand and make it so. The problem is this world AIN'T that by a long shot.

NOONE is "content". I want Brands figuring out ways to attract more recruits as much as you do. I just have a much more realistic viewpoint than you do. You, obviously think "adapting" and "matching" PSU is considerably easier than I do. Hell, right now, I DO NOT see a way where ANY coach or team could come anywhere close to recruiting like PSU just did in 2024. 4 top 10's and another in the top 15? That shouldn't even be possible.

Look, I really am NOT a Brands apologist. Nor, do I think Iowa fans shouldn't want first place finishes no matter what. My argument is mainly with the many on here that show a serious disconnect between blaming Brands for Iowa being so far behind PSU, without giving PSU all the ridiculous credit they deserve for what they created.

To be clear, I am NOT a PSU fan. I make it very obvious by how hard I mess with nearly every PSU fan I can. But, that doesn't mean I am anywhere close to deaf, dumb or blind. They have damn near cornered the DI wrestling market and have pretty much created the equivalent to a Monopoly in the sport. Their resources dwarf 99% of DI teams. Their coaching staff is as marquee as it can possibly get. Their location is 2nd to none, by a large margin. They have created an RTC so far ahead of everyone else, they could very well end up being the only 1 left for local guys, with Michigan only sustaining itself due to its foreign connections and incredible Russian coach.

Lastly, and most importantly, they have now created a legacy that will nearly sell itself. I hate to say it, but as long as Cael and Casey are there, what Brands just pulled off the last cycle, is about the most realistic thing you can hope for. You HAVE TO land a transcendent guy like Spencer, while mixing in very high end recruits like Kemerer, Warner, Cass and Marinell. Even then, you still need to land a couple monster transfers like DeSanto and Eierman.

Let that last part sink in. That is an incredible team that Brands assembled and even that team would be pushed to the limit by what PSU has now become. I get the angst as Iowa fans. You are the most rabid and loyal fanbase in the sport. I just push back hard against the narrative that Brands is doing such a bad job without realizing just how ridiculous PSU has become...
Click to expand...

Pretty even response. My only problem is... We fell behind because of Brands' decision-making

Recruiting - DID NOT and DOES NOT recruit guys hard.

RTC - STILL doesn't take it serious in terms of running a program built for getting a TEAM of RTC athletes medals. I just saw a post today about Kaleb Young being the HWC. and what does it say? Its "Because of you, great role models like Kaleb can continue to mentor the next generation of young athletes" - Seriously????

Coaching - Brands is not oblivious to the faults in the program, and he's said out loud the things we need to get better at. But then it's followed up with - more of the same thing. Tight, handfighting wrestling. Inability to scramble. Guys hurt by the end of the year, guys spent by their senior year.

Just not sure Brands deserves the grace you're giving them.
 
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vhsalum said:
Pretty even response. My only problem is... We fell behind because of Brands' decision-making

Recruiting - DID NOT and DOES NOT recruit guys hard.

RTC - STILL doesn't take it serious in terms of running a program built for getting a TEAM of RTC athletes medals. I just saw a post today about Kaleb Young being the HWC. and what does it say? Its "Because of you, great role models like Kaleb can continue to mentor the next generation of young athletes" - Seriously????

Coaching - Brands is not oblivious to the faults in the program, and he's said out loud the things we need to get better at. But then it's followed up with - more of the same thing. Tight, handfighting wrestling. Inability to scramble. Guys hurt by the end of the year, guys spent by their senior year.

Just not sure Brands deserves the grace you're giving them.
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Oh, make no mistake, I wouldn't give him an A grade. He falls squarely in the B range for me.

1.) Recruiting- I agree that they need to continue to evolve when it comes to the way they recruit. But, that doesn't mean I think they are close to bad at it or haven't done things to improve it, starting with Kemerer. They just can't be complacent while PSU is locking up 5 guys in the top 15 THIS YEAR!

2.) RTC-The sad part is, Tom has pretty much gone on record saying he doesn't like the way the RTC has become a "business" at certain places. I just don't think he believes in the system, nor does he have the energy or desire to even begin to try to compete with PSU in this regard. Is that a mistake that hurts Iowa wrestling collegiately? Probably. If he doesn't do something to make a splash in that area, time will tell if this is the one area where he definitely is messing up...

3a.) Coaching technique- As far as coaching goes, neither you, nor I, are inside the practices to see what is actually going on and why they do seem too dependent on inside ties and show such a limited ability to scramble. But, I do see that it seems to be a trend that needs to be closely looked at and adjusted. Even then, the way they wrestle works VERY well until they hit a very athletic guy in the top 5 range at their respective weights. Hell, even their bonus points have improved considerably over the last few years.

3b.) Coaching-health and fitness- Guys hurt at the end of the year, happens for nearly all teams and it seems to go in spurts. PSU had Starocci with his knee and Van Ness out for the season. As far as spent by their senior year goes, I strongly disagree. Murin was a madman his last year. Warner showed incredible effort and poise at NCAA's his senior year. The only things I have really seen holding back seniors have been untimely injuries that happen to every team
 
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MSU158 said:
Oh, make no mistake, I wouldn't give him an A grade. He falls squarely in the B range for me.

1.) Recruiting- I agree that they need to continue to evolve when it comes to the way they recruit. But, that doesn't mean I think they are close to bad at it or haven't done things to improve it, starting with Kemerer. They just can't be complacent while PSU is locking up 5 guys in the top 15 THIS YEAR!

2.) RTC-The sad part is, Tom has pretty much gone on record saying he doesn't like the way the RTC has become a "business" at certain places. I just don't think he believes in the system, nor does he have the energy or desire to even begin to try to compete with PSU in this regard. Is that a mistake that hurts Iowa wrestling collegiately? Probably. If he doesn't do something to make a splash in that area, time will tell if this is the one area where he definitely is messing up...

3a.) Coaching technique- As far as coaching goes, neither you, nor I, are inside the practices to see what is actually going on and why they do seem too dependent on inside ties and show such a limited ability to scramble. But, I do see that it seems to be a trend that needs to be closely looked at and adjusted. Even then, the way they wrestle works VERY well until they hit a very athletic guy in the top 5 range at their respective weights. Hell, even their bonus points have improved considerably over the last few years.

3b.) Coaching-health and fitness- Guys hurt at the end of the year, happens for nearly all teams and it seems to go in spurts. PSU had Starocci with his knee and Van Ness out for the season. As far as spent by their senior year goes, I strongly disagree. Murin was a madman his last year. Warner showed incredible effort and poise at NCAA's his senior year. The only things I have really seen holding back seniors have been untimely injuries that happen to every team
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I think you can blame the freestyle tournament season for injury accumulation far more than you can lay the blame at Brands' doorstep. When you are going at it hard in what could be considered the off season for D-1 wrestling, it's pretty shortsighted to not consider it. Almost all other sports have an off-season for rest, rehab, and strength development. You would think a combat sport would need it even more.
 
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ChiPackHawk said:
I think you can blame the freestyle tournament season for injury accumulation far more than you can lay the blame at Brands' doorstep. When you are going at it hard in what could be considered the off season for D-1 wrestling, it's pretty shortsighted to not consider it. Almost all other sports have an off-season for rest, rehab, and strength development. You would think a combat sport would need it even more.
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But, overall, is Iowa wrestling more events in the offseason or less? I don't really see them out there that often and I would say PSU's top guys have been out there a bunch.

I am definitely not one to even begin to blame Brands for injuries, but I am also not sure that offseason wrestling is a real factor or being abused/overused by Iowa.
 
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ChiPackHawk said:
I think you can blame the freestyle tournament season for injury accumulation far more than you can lay the blame at Brands' doorstep. When you are going at it hard in what could be considered the off season for D-1 wrestling, it's pretty shortsighted to not consider it. Almost all other sports have an off-season for rest, rehab, and strength development. You would think a combat sport would need it even more.
Click to expand...

It ain't that. Brands/Iowa give guys more "off mat" time than Cael and Co. It really does come down to intensity and length of practice.
 
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MSU158 said:
149: Parco-4xAA, taking 4th and 5th the last 2 seasons.
157: Siebrecht-WILDCARD Teemer here would obviously make for a "sure thing", but Siebrecht could make things interesting.
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I thought the insider's take was Parco wants to go 157 and so it's Cobe back to 149

MSU158 said:
To be clear, I am NOT a PSU fan. I make it very obvious by how hard I mess with nearly every PSU fan I can
Click to expand...

Some say 'hate' is the closest thing to 'love.'
 
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98lberEating2Lunches said:
I thought the insider's take was Parco wants to go 157 and so it's Cobe back to 149



Some say 'hate' is the closest thing to 'love.'
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I don't claim "insider" status. Wrestlestat has Parco at 149 and Siebrecht at 157, respectively. I simply went with that until something official says otherwise.

I truly do not hate PSU. In fact I have the utmost respect for what they have accomplished under Sanderson. I don't even hate the fans I mess with. Most of my messing with PSU fans is done much more out of joy than any form of hatred. I simply like messing with people that take way too much credit for something happening that they actually have little or nothing to do with. Add in the fact that those people come onto a Rival site to mess with them by either denigrating them or praising themselves and, of course, I will fire away as much as I can. But, you don't see me running to BWI to mess with anyone, do you? I respect the fans rights to have their opinions on their own site. That is what it is there for. If many of you kept it there, you would never hear or read a word from me disagreeing with you in any way...
 
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Zapuj268 said:
Think there is 3 coming in.......
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Dave Chapelle GIF by MOODMAN
 
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