Assumption wins their first title in the past 24 years and everybody is down on them? Actually the 3A games were all so close that Decorah or Waverly could have won with just an extra free throw or two or three. Assumption did pad their lead with a coupe of steals and dunks in the last 30 seconds, so the game was closer than the score. I saw Decorah play twice earlier and I thought that Decorah had the best 3A team, but their top scorer was held to half his usual point total in the semifinal game, and they were out. Clear Lake was another 3A team that had two key injuries, and could have won if they were at state.The problem with playing up is that you get a so-so crappy record and when the seeding at state is done, and if the team makes state, the school ends up playing the top competition in the first game at state. It's not recruiting that gives some private schools an advantage; it's that they are mostly in bigger cities. The top players in middle school mostly play with the kids from the public schools in AAU and summer leagues, and I see it all the time, kids (or their parents) will team up and land at one or two particular schools in the city, whether public (mosty) or private. Then you have a powerhouse. I first realized it when Iowa City High won the state title with one great player and four transfer starters in 2008. This year in Cedar Rapids, Xavier's best player transfered to CR Kennedy and they were an undefeated powerhouse until they met Valley which has a class of three or four juniors that somehow banded together and they will be #1 again next year. I do agree that the Des Moines metro area is beginning to dominate in basketball, like they have in most every other sport, especially football. A really great player who happens to live near a school that nearly always loses, is definitely going to find his way to the nearest powerhouse. Happens in every state. Also, what happened to cause all the technicals in the Kennedy- Valley game? Tried to watch but the IHSSN was not available free in Dubuque for some reason on Friday night.
OT- HS Boys State Finals wrapped up
- Thread starter EvilMonkeyInTheCloset
- Start date
It is really a complex issue.
It is a complete no brainer that private schools have an advantage over smaller towns. Maybe more of a factor in football, but as others have said, when you can pull from a large population base to get the tallest, biggest, best, etc. and other schools don't have that opportunity, it's not an even playing field.
There are 1.5 multipliers out there. There are 1.3. There are bumps in class for winning state titles. The point is other states have seen the need to make things equal and have, in whatever way they though best, remedied it to some extent.
Iowa continues to do nothing. It took years of complaints to get the shot clock. The powers that be finally caved on that and it has been a huge benefit to the sport.
I would advocate a 1.25, or a bump if a team plays in a state title game in back to back years.
There's no perfect answer, but the only wrong answer is to do nothing. Which is what we do.
I agree some private schools do not actively "recruit" to get kids, but attract due to success. However, MANY schools have people who "reach out" to see about interest.
It is a complete no brainer that private schools have an advantage over smaller towns. Maybe more of a factor in football, but as others have said, when you can pull from a large population base to get the tallest, biggest, best, etc. and other schools don't have that opportunity, it's not an even playing field.
There are 1.5 multipliers out there. There are 1.3. There are bumps in class for winning state titles. The point is other states have seen the need to make things equal and have, in whatever way they though best, remedied it to some extent.
Iowa continues to do nothing. It took years of complaints to get the shot clock. The powers that be finally caved on that and it has been a huge benefit to the sport.
I would advocate a 1.25, or a bump if a team plays in a state title game in back to back years.
There's no perfect answer, but the only wrong answer is to do nothing. Which is what we do.
I agree some private schools do not actively "recruit" to get kids, but attract due to success. However, MANY schools have people who "reach out" to see about interest.
I think Iowa ought to start giving outs tax monies to private schools to make things MORE competitive! Thar’ll do the trick.
It is really complex. You raise some good points.
Who do you think would move up with a 1.25 multiplier? The last time the state made a model with a 1.3 multiplier I don’t think anyone changed classes. I have that info somewhere and will check. Heelan nor Assumption would even be close to moving up with this years BEDS. Unity would be close, Western wouldn’t, Kuemper would not. More state do not have a multiplier than do I believe.
As far as the success multiplier what about that school who has 1 really good class that wins those titles/qualifies for state but then move back to a more normal group of kids for that school? Maybe even a group that has a chance to make state but not really a title contender. Why move them up a class when they really had no effect in the previous seasons?
Question on the shot clock. I was never in favor of it because it somewhat dictates how a team has to play. But I do have an open mind on this topic. Do you know if overall scoring or shooting %’s increased. I would be very interested to see how the clock affected those 2 things. Also why do you think it improved the game? I’m not searching for a specific answer but would be interested in your opinion, or anyone’s opinion on that. Thanks.
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“Shot clock” is way overrated in HS….it takes away a viable strategy for an underdog to win a game. Just my opinion.
WSC,
Those are great questions. I guess I don't like a 1.5 because it may push up smaller schools that aren't in a large population base unfairly (Pella Christian comes to mind). There are a couple other private schools not drawing from a city as well, but PC jumps to mind.
I assumed a 1.25 would bump up a Heelan or Assumption, for example, but I have not looked at enrollment numbers for the 23-24 school year. Should have before throwing that number out. A 1.25 may not do anything. Would a 1.3 ? Of course, schools would cap enrollment to stay under, likely not rejecting any stud male or female athletes in the process.
You bring up a great point about punishing subsequent classes for success above them. I have no response to that. You are completely right. I would guess a private school has a higher likelihood to be consistently great compared to a small town, though.
An old source (I didn't look too hard) from 2017 says 21 states use a multiplier or some other method. Ohio has a "Competitive Balance Plan" after they found that 43% of state titles are won by private schools that make up 16% of schools. Wisconsin just passed a similar Plan for 24-25. It's based on giving points.
Again, I'm not sure of the answer. I just know many people see the issue and think something should be done.
joelbc,
Many opinions on the shot clock exist. I hear your opinion and don't discount the reality of that. I just know how unappealing it has been (as a long time high school basketball coach - boys and girls) to watch a team pull the ball out because they were inferior or had a lead in the 4th. Or 3rd. Or 2nd...
To me it was boring basketball. The state tourney had some really hard games to watch. Even Valley wasn't fun to watch a few years back with this strategy.
I'm guessing shooting % went down with more late clock shoting attempts. I also know more teams pressed to try to drain a few seconds off the clock. Pressing brings more action. More action is a good thing. In my humble opinion.
Thanks for the respectful comments.
Those are great questions. I guess I don't like a 1.5 because it may push up smaller schools that aren't in a large population base unfairly (Pella Christian comes to mind). There are a couple other private schools not drawing from a city as well, but PC jumps to mind.
I assumed a 1.25 would bump up a Heelan or Assumption, for example, but I have not looked at enrollment numbers for the 23-24 school year. Should have before throwing that number out. A 1.25 may not do anything. Would a 1.3 ? Of course, schools would cap enrollment to stay under, likely not rejecting any stud male or female athletes in the process.
You bring up a great point about punishing subsequent classes for success above them. I have no response to that. You are completely right. I would guess a private school has a higher likelihood to be consistently great compared to a small town, though.
An old source (I didn't look too hard) from 2017 says 21 states use a multiplier or some other method. Ohio has a "Competitive Balance Plan" after they found that 43% of state titles are won by private schools that make up 16% of schools. Wisconsin just passed a similar Plan for 24-25. It's based on giving points.
Again, I'm not sure of the answer. I just know many people see the issue and think something should be done.
joelbc,
Many opinions on the shot clock exist. I hear your opinion and don't discount the reality of that. I just know how unappealing it has been (as a long time high school basketball coach - boys and girls) to watch a team pull the ball out because they were inferior or had a lead in the 4th. Or 3rd. Or 2nd...
To me it was boring basketball. The state tourney had some really hard games to watch. Even Valley wasn't fun to watch a few years back with this strategy.
I'm guessing shooting % went down with more late clock shoting attempts. I also know more teams pressed to try to drain a few seconds off the clock. Pressing brings more action. More action is a good thing. In my humble opinion.
Thanks for the respectful comments.
WSC,
Those are great questions. I guess I don't like a 1.5 because it may push up smaller schools that aren't in a large population base unfairly (Pella Christian comes to mind). There are a couple other private schools not drawing from a city as well, but PC jumps to mind.
I assumed a 1.25 would bump up a Heelan or Assumption, for example, but I have not looked at enrollment numbers for the 23-24 school year. Should have before throwing that number out. A 1.25 may not do anything. Would a 1.3 ? Of course, schools would cap enrollment to stay under, likely not rejecting any stud male or female athletes in the process.
You bring up a great point about punishing subsequent classes for success above them. I have no response to that. You are completely right. I would guess a private school has a higher likelihood to be consistently great compared to a small town, though.
An old source (I didn't look too hard) from 2017 says 21 states use a multiplier or some other method. Ohio has a "Competitive Balance Plan" after they found that 43% of state titles are won by private schools that make up 16% of schools. Wisconsin just passed a similar Plan for 24-25. It's based on giving points.
Again, I'm not sure of the answer. I just know many people see the issue and think something should be done.
joelbc,
Many opinions on the shot clock exist. I hear your opinion and don't discount the reality of that. I just know how unappealing it has been (as a long time high school basketball coach - boys and girls) to watch a team pull the ball out because they were inferior or had a lead in the 4th. Or 3rd. Or 2nd...
To me it was boring basketball. The state tourney had some really hard games to watch. Even Valley wasn't fun to watch a few years back with this strategy.
I'm guessing shooting % went down with more late clock shoting attempts. I also know more teams pressed to try to drain a few seconds off the clock. Pressing brings more action. More action is a good thing. In my humble opinion.
Thanks for the respectful comments.
Great thoughts. Truly appreciated especially from a long time coach (as am I).
Just a few BEDS numbers:
DCG is the bottom of 4A with 744 only 1500 less than Valley 😊
Heelan- 376
Assumption- 320
Bottom of 3A is Chariton with 307
Des Moines Christian at 266 would move up but they might anyway soon.
Unity- 228 -right on bubble
Western- 224
Kuemper- 222
Paella Christian- 195
Regina- 175
Gandview Christian 162 bottom of 2A- wasn’t it Stubbs who brought in the kids from Kingdom Hoops and Jake S?
21 of the bottom 33 schools BEDS wise are private schools.
I haven’t reviewed the results for awhile but when I was more involved multipliers didn’t have a significant impact on championships won. Has MN had an impact with their version of a multiplier? IL isn’t a parochial school multiplier but a non boundary school multiplier without OE.
I’ve seen you post a lot over the years in a few different forums and I’ve never been able to tell if you were a public or private school guy. If I remember right a lot were WB v ICR threads.
Try to look at from both sides. Kids OE when we lived in the Grimes/DSM area so the kids would always be in the same school no matter where we lived in the metro. Then came home as the kids got older. Had my kids recruited harder by the public schools than the private school.
Frustrations through the years with people who state things like facts when they really don’t know what they are talking about. Also enjoy a lively debate and am open to listen and learn about both sides of discussions.
THANKS for sharing those enrollment numbers, WSC. Great to be able to see those.
DCG is low now. They will continue to rise, as you likely know. Norwalk is another school close enough to have girls' sports as 4A out of 5A and boys' 4A out of 4A (for anybody not familiar).
What will be really interesting is how conference realignment unfolds the next few years.
The Raccoon River is pretty set and they have done a great job of adding in North Polk, etc., over the years.
The Northeast Conference folding has put a few schools in interesting positions. Decorah and Waverly for example. Who wants to add those strong programs?? Right now they are in limbo, while others like Crestwood and Waukon seem to be finding a place.
The Little Hawkeye Conference is looking at an interesting future as well. Grinnell wanted out and was taken in by the WAMAC. Pella Christian has wanted out but nobody will take them. Norwalk and DCG seem to be biding their time until getting big enough to stay closer to the metro. Oskaloosa is looking to get out. In 7 years that conference is going to be very different.
Thanks for the discussion. I love Iowa high school sports and appreciate others willing to discuss topics.
DCG is low now. They will continue to rise, as you likely know. Norwalk is another school close enough to have girls' sports as 4A out of 5A and boys' 4A out of 4A (for anybody not familiar).
What will be really interesting is how conference realignment unfolds the next few years.
The Raccoon River is pretty set and they have done a great job of adding in North Polk, etc., over the years.
The Northeast Conference folding has put a few schools in interesting positions. Decorah and Waverly for example. Who wants to add those strong programs?? Right now they are in limbo, while others like Crestwood and Waukon seem to be finding a place.
The Little Hawkeye Conference is looking at an interesting future as well. Grinnell wanted out and was taken in by the WAMAC. Pella Christian has wanted out but nobody will take them. Norwalk and DCG seem to be biding their time until getting big enough to stay closer to the metro. Oskaloosa is looking to get out. In 7 years that conference is going to be very different.
Thanks for the discussion. I love Iowa high school sports and appreciate others willing to discuss topics.
I don’t have a dog in the fight, except, I do know several coaches and assistant bb coaches who believe the game is pretty good the way it is and all strategies used in basketball should be available. I tend to agree with that thought, especially in HS and below....Taking away a viable strategy from a team “unlevels” the playing field....boring or not.WSC,
Those are great questions. I guess I don't like a 1.5 because it may push up smaller schools that aren't in a large population base unfairly (Pella Christian comes to mind). There are a couple other private schools not drawing from a city as well, but PC jumps to mind.
I assumed a 1.25 would bump up a Heelan or Assumption, for example, but I have not looked at enrollment numbers for the 23-24 school year. Should have before throwing that number out. A 1.25 may not do anything. Would a 1.3 ? Of course, schools would cap enrollment to stay under, likely not rejecting any stud male or female athletes in the process.
You bring up a great point about punishing subsequent classes for success above them. I have no response to that. You are completely right. I would guess a private school has a higher likelihood to be consistently great compared to a small town, though.
An old source (I didn't look too hard) from 2017 says 21 states use a multiplier or some other method. Ohio has a "Competitive Balance Plan" after they found that 43% of state titles are won by private schools that make up 16% of schools. Wisconsin just passed a similar Plan for 24-25. It's based on giving points.
Again, I'm not sure of the answer. I just know many people see the issue and think something should be done.
joelbc,
Many opinions on the shot clock exist. I hear your opinion and don't discount the reality of that. I just know how unappealing it has been (as a long time high school basketball coach - boys and girls) to watch a team pull the ball out because they were inferior or had a lead in the 4th. Or 3rd. Or 2nd...
To me it was boring basketball. The state tourney had some really hard games to watch. Even Valley wasn't fun to watch a few years back with this strategy.
I'm guessing shooting % went down with more late clock shoting attempts. I also know more teams pressed to try to drain a few seconds off the clock. Pressing brings more action. More action is a good thing. In my humble opinion.
Thanks for the respectful comments.
Sorry, can't do anything but laugh at the thought that Coggon is an evil empireWas it yet another waste of a season?
You got all 4 classes being won by evil empire programs for their level.
1A- North Linn
2A- Western Christian
3A- Davenport Assumption
4A- WDM, Valley
Much like the criticisms with high school wrestling in this state, da fuq are we doing in basketball in this state that we allow it to come to this?
Do better, Iowa........
And yes those 4 schools, fans, parents, players, coaches, and mascots (especially the mascots) should apologize.
I've got a great idea - let's pull upper-middle class kids from a city of 50,000 + and then have them play sports against a farm town with a total population of 3,000. They are definitely on the same playing field, right?....
No pun intended.
No pun intended.
“There are always things to complain about. Things could always be better but things could always be worse.” ~ Marla Gibbs
I agree. North Linn's success in boy's basketball can likely be most attributed to their recent coaching history from 2015 to today. It started with Bob Hilmer who is far and away the best Iowa HS basketball coach ever IMO. Eventually he handed off the job to his son Mike, who I'm certain is every bit the coach his dad was, his results reflect that. I knew Bob back in my HS days and played against him many times, he even asked my stepdad if I would be willing to transfer to Forest City HS for my last two years. I was flattered but declined the offer, I would have been persona non grata in my small home town if I had made that transfer move, but I always do wonder how that would have worked out being coached by the guy I now consider to be a legend.
Part of the issue for some of the schools you mentioned, and you did specify, is the IGHSAA and IHSAA need to have the same number of classes.
My guess is the boys would go to 5 before the girls dropped to 4.
DCG and Norwalk are good examples of why certain schools want out of the LH and no one wants to join.
'he even asked my stepdad if I would be willing to transfer to Forest City HS for my last two years.'
Public schools recruiting before recruiting was cool........
Better call Emmetsburg and tell them to return their trophies, couldn't be any way possible for them to be competitive. Pekin, Applington, Harlan.....no way to be competitive
Just do it like some of the professional leagues. If you win the championship in 2A, you move up to 3A...
Then x number of years after your 2A championship, you can move back down 2A if your enrollment lines up.
Was originally joking about this, but maybe the simplest way
Then x number of years after your 2A championship, you can move back down 2A if your enrollment lines up.
Was originally joking about this, but maybe the simplest way
It’s not as simple as you might think. What about the 4A powers? Where do they go? What if Dike NH and Western Christian move up a class in volleyball and win at that level too. Which they probably would.
The Dowling factor was always a big issue in football. As well as the DM suburban schools v all other city schools.
No one said it's not possible for those types of communities to be competitive - we're saying it is substantially easier to be competitive when your 1a/2a school is located in a large metropolitan area.
Or next to a large metropolitan area. So many more opportunities for training, AAU, travel teams, playing against higher level competition.
‘Substantially easier’? Hmmm… a couple of choices for top athletes
A. Go to a big school in a metro area, several bond issues passed, top notch facilities, competing against the biggest schools, bigger exposure, bigger networks of people, more college coaches watching….. for free or
B. Small school, fundraise for facilities, less exposure, smaller networks of people, less college coaches watching and paying for the pleasure of playing. In a metro area surrounded by successful schools.
There are advantages to both but substantially easier is a stretch in my opinion.
Stop defending Regina's reign of terror in football.
Look how much better the sport is without them always being at the top.
Right, Penn State wrestling fans lurking on this board?............
Stop defending Regina's reign of terror in football.
Look how much better the sport is without them always being at the top.
Right, Penn State wrestling fans lurking on this board?............
I don’t know the answer to this. How good was Regina prior to Marv Cook’s arrival? Is he still there?
When did Mark Gannon graduate? Mid to late 70’s?
1979 I think. Came to Iowa the same year as Bobby Hansen.
The fact that they aren’t always at the top kind of proves my point…….. none of the built in advantages have changed, still a private school in a large metro area. The mix of great coaching and good athletes coming through has changed. If I listen to the ‘multiplier’ crowd they should be at the top just because.Stop defending Regina's reign of terror in football.
Look how much better the sport is without them always being at the top.
Right, Penn State wrestling fans lurking on this board?............
So it isn’t the built in advantages that created the ‘reign of terror’
People forget that before Kevin Miller started the process that Regina was a school board vote away from dropping football and they were voted most likely to be everyone’s homecoming opponent…… all with the same built it in advantages that make the playing field so unfair…..
Gannon 1979
IHSAA should go to 5 classes and adopt the free and reduced criteria used in football.
It factors in socioeconomic status when creating classifications.
Rich schools get bumped up and poor schools get bumped down:
Under the system, if an Iowa school's 9th through 11th grade enrollment for the coming school year is 1,000, and the school's free- and reduced-price lunch enrollment is 370 students, then that school would reduce its total enrollment count by 148 kids (40% of 370), resulting in an IHSAA classification number of 852 for football.
For example:
Des Moines Hoover, a poor school (716 beds, or 238 kids in a class) played 3A football.
Gilbert, a rich school (400 beds or 133 kids in a class) played 4A football.
It factors in socioeconomic status when creating classifications.
Rich schools get bumped up and poor schools get bumped down:
Under the system, if an Iowa school's 9th through 11th grade enrollment for the coming school year is 1,000, and the school's free- and reduced-price lunch enrollment is 370 students, then that school would reduce its total enrollment count by 148 kids (40% of 370), resulting in an IHSAA classification number of 852 for football.
For example:
Des Moines Hoover, a poor school (716 beds, or 238 kids in a class) played 3A football.
Gilbert, a rich school (400 beds or 133 kids in a class) played 4A football.
Kevin Miller started the process in his one year, Chuck Evans built on it and won a title. Then Marv took it to another level…. Prior to Miller most games were over by the mercy rule.
FYI the school has not changed locations, was and still is in a metro area.
This is year 1, but wait until year 3, when the vouchers kick in for everyone to go to a private school for free if they so choose.
Tell me about the vouchers making school free at private schools. How does that program work?
I.e Van Meter, Solon, Williamsburg etc. works for publics as well.
I am old so my attendance is ancient history. I was around when it was only 3 classes and our conference ranged from 1A - Regina to 3A - Linn Mar with Prairie, Benton, LaSalle(RIP) and Beckman. My kids were the 'recruits' when we moved from DSM to Iowa City..... interestingly I received more recruiting talks from CCA and City High than I did Regina.
