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rossel 33

rossel 33

HB All-American
Jul 17, 2004
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who's up and who's down?

on the plus side......

gotta say Gilman and Burak looked great, both get A's

Sorensen beating Tsirtsis was huge... A+

Stoll finishing 3rd in strong fashion was encouraging, his bonus pts could really help out in March A-

Kemdawg - I am really impressed with this kid. Already AA caliber. A couple of very close losses to top guys. Too bad he doesn't weigh 141 or 157#.

others.....

133 Clark looked great, then gets injured?? hope nothing serious
141 is a huge hole. Unless Brody comes in, no pts in March
165 not likely getting pts either

157 - Cooper a work in progress, has potential, too early to say, but odds don't favor reaching AA
174 - Meyers - finishes 3rd, but not impressive wrestling overall, imho. Soundly beaten and ridden like a mule
in semi's. His #3 ranking was a stretch, and he'll fall to borderline AA status.
184 - Brooks - pretty solid, gets 4th after a tough semi (Taylor) but losing to Zilmer after beating him earlier hurts
 
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Decent team performance overall. Team score would not have been near as close if Clark wrestles on day 2. Has been noted before, but Kemerer is going to be really, really good.
 
What I learned is Meyer could easily miss AA. As someone else said he's looking more like Evans then last year Meyer.

I just don't understand how he is "still" so flat footed in the 1st period.

41, 57, and 65 will be like last year
 
Jaybird319 said:
What I learned is Meyer could easily miss AA. As someone else said he's looking more like Evans then last year Meyer.

I just don't understand how he is "still" so flat footed in the 1st period.

41, 57, and 65 will be like last year
Click to expand...
Grothus will have a good chance to make this year better than last year if he makes it thru the year healthy. I wouldn't write that weight off just yet.
 
Where our chances at a national title are concerned, 174 and 184 were the most problematic for me. Alex could place top 4 at Nationals but could also miss the podium. If it's the former, we could be right in the hunt. If it's the latter, you can put a fork in us. Sammy also has potential to finish high on the podium -- and we need him to do just that if we're going to win the thing. The loss to Zilmer was a bummer, with that in mind. Was hoping he might widen the gap a little there. Clark's health is also a concern, as without a healthy Clark, our national title hopes are pretty much shot, as well.

On the bright side, Gilman looks great, Clark looked great before the injury, Sorensen is looking like a national finalist, Burak is looking like a high AA, and Stoll is also looking like an AA candidate whose ranking should get another boost and may work himself into a nice seed in March.

All in all, a pretty solid overall effort. This group has the goods to win it all in NYC, which is encouraging (assuming Brody can go at 141). Hoping they build over the next couple of months.
 
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WWDMHawkeye said:
Where our chances at a national title are concerned, 174 and 184 were the most problematic for me. Alex could place top 4 at Nationals but could also miss the podium. If it's the former, we could be right in the hunt. If it's the latter, you can put a fork in us. Sammy also has potential to finish high on the podium -- and we need him to do just that if we're going to win the thing. The loss to Zilmer was a bummer, with that in mind. Was hoping he might widen the gap a little there. Clark's health is also a concern, as without a healthy Clark, our national title hopes are pretty much shot, as well.

On the bright side, Gilman looks great, Clark looked great before the injury, Sorensen is looking like a national finalist, Burak is looking like a high AA, and Stoll is also looking like an AA candidate whose ranking should get another boost and may work himself into a nice seed in March.

All in all, a pretty solid overall effort. This group has the goods to win it all in NYC, which is encouraging (assuming Brody can go at 141). Hoping they build over the next couple of months.
Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with the details, but perhaps not with the overall assessment. Even on the first day Meyer and Brooks seemed to be wrestling with no intensity. Going into the season I had hopes of each of them being top-5, which took some pressure off of every other guy performing to their top potential. Now it looks like it's optimistic that they each sneak into one of the last AA slots; meaning our studs have to perform very well, and we will need Brody and Stoll to have big tournaments.

Since it's unlikely that every guy performs to their potential (based on recent history) and Brody isn't even in the lineup yet, right now I'm not too crazy about our chances.
 
I sure hope Brody is the answer so many are hoping on. Seems a lot of people have an expectation of him doing big things.
I hope so too but I remind myself there are as many question marks and possible upside.
 
255 said:
I sure hope Brody is the answer so many are hoping on. Seems a lot of people have an expectation of him doing big things.
I hope so too but I remind myself there are as many question marks and possible upside.
Click to expand...

Well, there is no downside, is there?
 
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artradley said:
Well, there is no downside, is there?
Click to expand...
Of course. What if he does not do as expected? What if he struggles?

My point is in most discussions about a title his name seems to be a lynch pin and no one really knows how he will do.

Our chances in March have a lot of moving parts. We seem to plan that we must have 10 AA guys. 9AA guys and we have no chance. (Being a little sarcastic here). A lot has to happen and we are just in the early part. Writing anyone off in December is folly. Just as writing someone in is folly.
 
255 said:
Of course. What if he does not do as expected? What if he struggles?

My point is in most discussions about a title his name seems to be a lynch pin and no one really knows how he will do.

Our chances in March have a lot of moving parts. We seem to plan that we must have 10 AA guys. 9AA guys and we have no chance. (Being a little sarcastic here). A lot has to happen and we are just in the early part. Writing anyone off in December is folly. Just as writing someone in is folly.
Click to expand...

I still don't see the downside. Currently there is almost no chance we'll get points at Nationals at 141. So if Brody crashes and burns, we don't lose anything. My view is that with Grothus there is hope for points at 141. Without him there is none.
 
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Upgrades:
  • Stoll: Looking more and more like an AA contender, however he's still a step or two behind the big boys.
  • Kem: He looked great across the board. He was a couple of freshman mistakes away from knocking off 2 AA wrestlers. He erased any doubts I had this tourney.
  • Burak: Before this tournament I generally viewed Burak as a Top-4 gatekeeper; not quite talented enough to rise to the top but solid AA material. But he looks much more fluid and confident on his feet this year. Maybe it's just the quality of the opposition, but I feel like he may be a challenger for the finals at this weight.
Downgrades:
  • Clark: I don't think Tom would have held him out unless there was something potentially serious. I'm concerned about structural damage.
  • 141: Turk has good offense but mat wrestling leaves a lot to be desired, Carton has a good motor but seems small and is sometimes overpowered, not strong/skilled enough to win the scrambles. Help us Brody-wan-Grothobi you're our only hope!
  • Meyer: His motor, heart, and moxie are what win it for him. If one of those pieces aren't in place I think that AA status might be in doubt. Maybe he's just having trouble with the cut.
Holding Steady:
  • Gilman: He's money in the bank. I'd be surprised if he finishes outside top 4 at nationals and a title is in play.
  • Sorensen: See Gilman, above. Top 3 guy. He's a basically a coinflip with T-Shirt. I'm interested in seeing if he can get out from bottom vs. Retherford.
  • Cooper: He is who we thought he was. We'll be lucky to get a win or two at nationals at this position.
  • Rhodes: Good tourney from Rhodes. Great motor, strong guy, but that's about it. I don't see any points at nationals from him
 
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artradley said:
Pretty much agree with the details, but perhaps not with the overall assessment. Even on the first day Meyer and Brooks seemed to be wrestling with no intensity. Going into the season I had hopes of each of them being top-5, which took some pressure off of every other guy performing to their top potential. Now it looks like it's optimistic that they each sneak into one of the last AA slots; meaning our studs have to perform very well, and we will need Brody and Stoll to have big tournaments.

Since it's unlikely that every guy performs to their potential (based on recent history) and Brody isn't even in the lineup yet, right now I'm not too crazy about our chances.
Click to expand...
You are so far off on Brooks that I feel sorry for you. Sneaking into the last AA slot:rolleyes:. Brooks will be wrestling Saturday night.
 
artradley said:
I still don't see the downside. Currently there is almost no chance we'll get points at Nationals at 141. So if Brody crashes and burns, we don't lose anything. My view is that with Grothus there is hope for points at 141. Without him there is none.
Click to expand...

Fair point.
 
gablefan73 said:
You are so far off on Brooks that I feel sorry for you. Sneaking into the last AA slot:rolleyes:. Brooks will be wrestling Saturday night.
Click to expand...
If Brooks was such a lock to be going Saturday night he would not get handled by Zilmer like that in the 3/4 match. He has the tools to make the final but so do a number of other guys, he was not dominant in this tournament. Brooks is a strong guy but he has lapses sometimes and he is not the most fluid athlete and can be too heavy footed.
 
Gilman, Healthy Clark, Sorensen and Burak have been very consistent.

Meyer, Brooks and Stoll are a step below IMO, things not clicking quite like they could on the 1st 2 and Stoll has some deficiencies of youth to improve in his game (movement vs quick guys and getting off bottom.)

Rhoads is getting a lot out of his potential IMO. The effort is there.

Work needed with Carton and Coop, they have some talent but it is not coming together very well. Grothus may be the answer to 141 obviously.
 
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rossel 33 said:
who's up and who's down?

on the plus side......

gotta say Gilman and Burak looked great, both get A's

Sorensen beating Tsirtsis was huge... A+

Stoll finishing 3rd in strong fashion was encouraging, his bonus pts could really help out in March A-

Kemdawg - I am really impressed with this kid. Already AA caliber. A couple of very close losses to top guys. Too bad he doesn't weigh 141 or 157#.

others.....

133 Clark looked great, then gets injured?? hope nothing serious
141 is a huge hole. Unless Brody comes in, no pts in March
165 not likely getting pts either

157 - Cooper a work in progress, has potential, too early to say, but odds don't favor reaching AA
174 - Meyers - finishes 3rd, but not impressive wrestling overall, imho. Soundly beaten and ridden like a mule
in semi's. His #3 ranking was a stretch, and he'll fall to borderline AA status.
184 - Brooks - pretty solid, gets 4th after a tough semi (Taylor) but losing to Zilmer after beating him earlier hurts
Click to expand...
I hope Myers was sick cause he looked it, physically overmatched in his loss.
 
Overall I was a little disappointed.

I was counting on Meyer being a top 5 finisher at Nats. He didn't look much better than round of 12 this weekend. Got blasted by Walters and struggled to score against others who will be lucky to qualify. I'm hoping he was not feeling well.

Cooper just makes too many gaffes to be counted on. He might win 2 matches at best this March.

165 and 141 are just ice cream matches at this point.

I see Stoll at best low AA. I don't see him beating any of the top 4 guys. He could compete with the guys 5-12 but those guys could also beat him.

Just when you think Brooks is turning it on, he barely beats Renda and loses the second match against Zilmer. Those are matches that he has the ability to control. Seems like sometimes he just checks out mentally including finding what mat he's wrestling on.

This team really lacks the depth we've had in past years with currently 3 major holes and not even sure what we'll get out of Stoll and Meyer.

We'll probably need at least 3 finalists out of Clark, Sorensen, Gilman and Burak to win the championship.
 
After watching Iowa at the Midland's, the EYEBALL test tells me Iowa is A WAYS from title contention IMO. And then I look at the Southern Scuffle pre-seeds and I contend there might be even a greater distance than I originally thought in regards to a NATIONAL TEAM TITLE. My concerns swirl around the question mark at 141, the inconsistencies of 174 and 184, and the lacking holes at 157 and 165.

Here's my take at this point in the season
125-Top 4, BANK IT!
133-Top 4, if healthy
141- the weakest weight in the country. If Grothus is healthy, a Top 8 is certainly not out of the ?
149-Top 4, BANK IT!
157- NO AA
165 -NO AA
174- NO AA, Cody Walters embarrassed him. IMO he's a RD 12 guy RIGHT NOW
184- Top 8, This may be generous?
197- Top 4, BANK IT!
Hwt- Top 6

Iowa is a much better DUAL team than TOURNAMENT team!!
 
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CP84 said:
Overall I was a little disappointed.

I was counting on Meyer being a top 5 finisher at Nats. He didn't look much better than round of 12 this weekend. Got blasted by Walters and struggled to score against others who will be lucky to qualify. I'm hoping he was not feeling well.

Cooper just makes too many gaffes to be counted on. He might win 2 matches at best this March.

165 and 141 are just ice cream matches at this point.

I see Stoll at best low AA. I don't see him beating any of the top 4 guys. He could compete with the guys 5-12 but those guys could also beat him.

Just when you think Brooks is turning it on, he barely beats Renda and loses the second match against Zilmer. Those are matches that he has the ability to control. Seems like sometimes he just checks out mentally including finding what mat he's wrestling on.

This team really lacks the depth we've had in past years with currently 3 major holes and not even sure what we'll get out of Stoll and Meyer.

We'll probably need at least 3 finalists out of Clark, Sorensen, Gilman and Burak to win the championship.
Click to expand...
I didn't know much about Renda, but he looked pretty darn good to me. Zilmer is obviously pretty good, but I agree if Sammy is to take the next step, he can't check out in those matches. Sammy Stoll is still a fringe guy, not much has changed in that regard, IMO. But he's showing promise for the future, that's a good thing. Meyer got 3rd and wrestled like crap, guess that's a good thing? Rhoads is what he is, a tough kid who hangs around and grinds and gives the best effort he can IMO. Something to be said for that regardless of outcome. Cooper is a roller-coaster type, unfortunately he'll get you stuck in the middle of the ride for 4 hours at times. Grothus is on the way. Have faith.
 
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MVPFAN said:
Gilman, Healthy Clark, Sorensen and Burak have been very consistent.

Meyer, Brooks and Stoll are a step below IMO, things not clicking quite like they could on the 1st 2 and Stoll has some deficiencies of youth to improve in his game (movement vs quick guys and getting off bottom.)

Rhoads is getting a lot out of his potential IMO. The effort is there.

Work needed with Carton and Coop, they have some talent but it is not coming together very well. Grothus may be the answer to 141 obviously.
Click to expand...
I like this summery spot on to my thinking. Often we let hoping get into the way of real/objective thinking.
 
Midlands gave us a gauge of where we are at but not as much as we hoped (Thanks Illinois)

25- Gilman is solid and consistent. Probably the best 25lbers in the country. Rios or Bresser or whatever his name is was no slouch neither was that kid in the semi and Gilman shut them down. Was in control the whole match. Right now, he's everything I was hoping he'd be this year.

33- Clark was never challenged in this tourney. Tweeked the knee. Heard it's not too serious. I'm sure he'll be back for the Illinois meet. Don't know how long he's progressed since we didn't see a Brewer matchup and the rest of the field wasn't that competitive. Also, where did that Alber kid from UNI come from? He's gonna be good.

41- Ryan's not the answer. Turk's good for a true freshmen, but he's not the answer. Carton is the best of the three and could be the answer. Gross looked like the answer but he's wearing the wrong singlet. Grothus is the answer to the million dollar question to "can the Hawks win a national title this year?" We all know this. A healthy Grothus gives us a shot. Carton gives us a qualifer and a chance to earn some points. Carton is good, but he has trouble finishing. If he finishes a couple shots at Midlands, he's in the quarters or semis.

49- First time seeing what Kemerer could do and boy, was it an eye opener. Shoulda, woulda, coulda, but he should have beaten two talented AAs in Richardson and Sueljon and I'd bet money that he'd beat them in a rematch. The kid is everything that is advertised and more. Sorenson is just solid. He's right on the same plane as Gilman. Dare I say, Sorenson turned the corner in the Midlands finals by scoring a TD to beat Tsirtsis (not an easy thing to do) rather than a ride out. Your OW for the Midlands is going to gain confidence and ride major momentum the rest of the season after shutting down a loaded 49lb bracket.

57- Coop da Loop, sounds like a rollar coaster ride. Well, that's what Coopers season has been so far. He beat a very good Richie Lewis of Rutgers in the duel and got ranked than lost to him in the conso at Midlands. He beat a ranked Welch from Purdue than proceeded to get dismantled via double leg takedowns by Gantt of NC St (You Midlands Champ) He's on the verge of an AA hopeful. We've got something more than we bargained for at this weight this year. Cooper just needs to progress throughout the season and we'll have a very good 57 that's established.

65- My least favorite weight to talk about. However, Rhoads did give some nice performances. Had a nice pin fall in the Consi against the guy he beat earlier in the tourney 6-5. But he lost to a guy he beat earlier in the tourney as well. Rhoads is tough, just don't know if he's talented enough to get us points at nationals. Also, that kid from Purdue who won the Midlands is damn good.

74- I refuse to believe this is Alex Meyer at 100% health. If you believe that he is than you have to believe that he's whole mental approach to wrestling has changed from a year ago. That go go in your face wrestling we're used to seeing from Meyer just doesn't jive with him anymore. I don't believe that. He's going to drop in rankings as he should cause right now he's not wrestling like an AA. Walter from Ohio is really good, but a healthy Meyer takes him. Once Meyer gets back to being Meyer, we'll see separation from him and his opponents.

84- Beat a very good Zillmer than faced 2x Hodge winner and 4x finalist DT. Brooks came out of the gate like a rabid tiger looking for a leg to knaw on. He went all out and gave DT all he could handle (had his leg more than a few times) The pace Brooks was going at against DT wasn't near the pace he was going against Zillmer in the rematch in the Consi. Prior to the DT match, I think Brooks saw a chance to take out one of wrestling's stars and pushed all in. Brooks underhooks to sweeps and singles are his money moves so are his tilts. Now, everyone knows that, so hopefully he adds a couple more weapons to his arsenal going forward. Brooks is my favorite to watch. Maximus.
Also, what was going through DT's head in the final 30 seconds of his match with Dudley? "Oh crap, I might lose!" "I'd better back up and not try anything stupid and get caught. My sponsors are watching" (Slowly backs up, stall warning on DT)

97- Burak is Burak. He can open up and blow the lesser competition out of the water than tighten up and win close ones against ok to good compeition. He had a good Midlands. Now he's a 2x winner of the tourney. Someone mentioned that Burak has been a gatekeeper of sorts for the 97 elites. I think that's fairly accurate at this point and the Midlands did nothing to change that image. He's a solid mid AA. I don't know if I see him beating the like of Cox or Mcintosh anytime soon.

Heavy- He is for real. Taking 3rd. He beat Smith from Rutgers again which is always big in establishing that the first win wasn't a fluke. He also be Lawson from OK.
Than he got a reality check in the consi when he went up against a tall, lanky, and athletic heavy in Peck from Maryland. Peck gave him all kinds of fits on their feet. Attacking Stoll's legs. Sam has to find a way to slow these athletic heavies down or he's going to be in trouble. Stoll is a solid AA prospect. However, Mr. Darth Vader needs to not stand over a guy after a pin fall, especially after the guy pretty much gave up cause his arm was almost ripped off prior to that.
Also, Tanner Hall is right there the top Heavies (Coon, Gwiz) Gwiz knew that in the waning seconds of the Midlands finals as he backed away from Hall. Gwiz is usually pushing the offense, not against Hall as much.
 
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I'm not to worry about Brooks. He will be AA this year. Just remains to be seen if he is a high or low AA.

Renda has been wildly inconsistent, but has show enough talent to keep matches close. I also think Zilmer is easily a R12 guy, if not low AA.
 
So it's ok to put the legs in and spladle and guy to his back and potentially tearing one of his adductor muscles, but it's not ok to crank on a guys arm trying to get him to his back?
 
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Jaybird319 said:
I'm not to worry about Brooks. He will be AA this year. Just remains to be seen if he is a high or low AA.

Renda has been wildly inconsistent, but has show enough talent to keep matches close. I also think Zilmer is easily a R12 guy, if not low AA.
Click to expand...
Zilmer was 6th last year, so he's no slouch.
 
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I only caught the very end of the Stoll semi when him and the Maryland guy starting jawing at each other. What happenned there? Anyone remember what mat it was as I 'd like to go watch it on a BTN2go replay. They are up now. thanks.
 
Abro1975 said:
I only caught the very end of the Stoll semi when him and the Maryland guy starting jawing at each other. What happenned there? Anyone remember what mat it was as I 'd like to go watch it on a BTN2go replay. They are up now. thanks.
Click to expand...
Not real sure, but big Sammy was being had to that point and he rag-dolled Peck from his feet and stuck him, then stood over him and was chirping some it appeared (not a good thing IMO). Peck had an earlier stoppage when he tapped out and was having some shoulder issues when Stoll was trying to work him over.

I like our guys to have an edge to them, but our two Sammy's need a little bit of sportmanship tweaking IMO.
 
Yep I knew that Sloe. I still feel he's around that level or lower. Depends on who's hot and seeding. Just think people are undermining Brooks tournament results
 
Abro1975 said:
I only caught the very end of the Stoll semi when him and the Maryland guy starting jawing at each other. What happenned there? Anyone remember what mat it was as I 'd like to go watch it on a BTN2go replay. They are up now. thanks.
Click to expand...

I think it was mat 4. If you don't find it, then go towards the end of the thread Midlands Session 3 as people would post what mat our guys were coming up on and it will be posted there.
 
fleming24 said:
After watching Iowa at the Midland's, the EYEBALL test tells me Iowa is A WAYS from title contention IMO. And then I look at the Southern Scuffle pre-seeds and I contend there might be even a greater distance than I originally thought in regards to a NATIONAL TEAM TITLE. My concerns swirl around the question mark at 141, the inconsistencies of 174 and 184, and the lacking holes at 157 and 165.

Here's my take at this point in the season
125-Top 4, BANK IT!
133-Top 4, if healthy
141- the weakest weight in the country. If Grothus is healthy, a Top 8 is certainly not out of the ?
149-Top 4, BANK IT!
157- NO AA
165 -NO AA
174- NO AA, Cody Walters embarrassed him. IMO he's a RD 12 guy RIGHT NOW
184- Top 8, This may be generous?
197- Top 4, BANK IT!
Hwt- Top 6

Iowa is a much better DUAL team than TOURNAMENT team!!
Click to expand...


Brooks will finish in the top 8. Wrestlestats had him #7 going into Midlands and his only NCAA loss was a split with Zilmer who is currently their #6.

I'm not sure about Stoll in the top 6. He's a ways behind Gwiz, Walz, Coon and Marsden. Not sure he's better than Hall either. Then you have a lot of guys right around his level like Kroells and Dhesi. I just hope Stoll makes the podium.
 
Stoll owns some Greco wins over Coon. No, folkstyle isn't all that close to Greco, but sometimes having a win over a guy can help you mentally. I don't know that I'd say Sam is a ways behind Coon, at least. I actually think he could hold his own against Marsden, too. He's wrestling MUCH better than back in November at the Grapple on the Gridiron. Don't like his chances against Gwiz or Walz, but 285 can be a pretty crazy weight class and given the generally low scoring, a big move here or there can be the difference. I think Sam has a puncher's chance against most heavies out there, and I wouldn't be shocked to see him crack the top 4 in March. More likely a low-AA type, but I think he can hang with most of them outside of the top 2 guys.
 
Ok, what I feel about Midlands performances.

GMan is going to win it all in March. Bring them on!! I don't care what anybody else thinks and neither does he!!

CC is wrestling Saturday night also and while I think he has a shot at winning it just don't feel as strongly as I do about GMan.

Grothus has yet to get in there so I'm at a wait and see here.

Sorensen= Champ!!! No doubt in my mind about him. Feel REAL GOOD about BS!!

Cooper & Rhoads are pretty good kids that work hard but I just don't expect much out of either one.

Meyer scares the crap out of me. Right now I just hope he AA's

Brooks, I have a few concerns about him after this weekend but still think he finds his way onto the stand.

Burak is wrestling on Saturday night!!! Laugh all you want but I honestly love where he is at!!!

Stoll is going to AA but he's not beating Gwiazdowski or Walz but don't count him out against the rest of the pack...
 
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