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Question For Smalls/Wille?

I'm not Willie but I'll take a stab. In recent years, there aren't many differences between the programs at the top level. They are all slightly different flavors of the same ice cream brand. I'm talking Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OSU, Cornell, etc. They all have great coaching, storied programs, more than adequate facilities. What's not to like with any of them if you're a recruit? The biggest difference I see across the board that is separating schools is a commitment to a high level RTC managed as an extension to the program. It's a self sustaining marketing tool that appeals to many elite wrestlers, and so the chances of having 3-4 elite wrestlers in your lineup rather than 1-2 guys is much higher. As an example, compare Iowa to OKST and PSU. If you take off your Iowa hat, the programs have many of the same things going for them, but again the main difference is that Okst has little to show for its RTC program and thus lags further than Iowa does in that dept. Ohio State and PSU are fully committed to an integrated RTC and I think it shows in recruiting over the last 6-8 years. To a slightly lesser extent, Cornell has done well extending its program with its RTC.

Obviously there are dozens of variables than go into a junior committing to a school, but if I sit back and look at the landscape long enough, those schools with robust RTCs that are managed as an extension to the program (legally of course) are having some advantage attracting the kids who make it to Saturday night.

I'm not saying that's the answer to your question but it's my gut reaction to your question.
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
I'm not Willie but I'll take a stab. In recent years, there aren't many differences between the programs at the top level. They are all slightly different flavors of the same ice cream brand. I'm talking Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OSU, Cornell, etc. They all have great coaching, storied programs, more than adequate facilities. What's not to like with any of them if you're a recruit? The biggest difference I see across the board that is separating schools is a commitment to a high level RTC managed as an extension to the program. It's a self sustaining marketing tool that appeals to many elite wrestlers, and so the chances of having 3-4 elite wrestlers in your lineup rather than 1-2 guys is much higher. As an example, compare Iowa to OKST and PSU. If you take off your Iowa hat, the programs have many of the same things going for them, but again the main difference is that Okst has little to show for its RTC program and thus lags further than Iowa does in that dept. Ohio State and PSU are fuly committed to an integrated RTC and I think it shows in recruiting over the last 6-8 years. To a slightly lesser extent, Cornell has done well extending its program with its RTC.

Obviously there are dozens of variables than go into a junior committing to a school, but if I sit back and look at the landscape long enough, those schools with robust RTCs that are managed as an extension to the program (legally of course) are having some advantage attracting the kids who make it to Saturday night.

I'm not saying that's the answer to your question but it's my gut reaction to your question.
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UPenn’s recent commitment to their integrated RTC, in the heart of Pennsylvania/NJ wrestling community, will be interesting to watch. I can see it having a positive impact on Penn’s recruiting and potentially provide a viable alternative to PSU For wrestlers wanting to stay close to home.
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
I'm not Willie but I'll take a stab. In recent years, there aren't many differences between the programs at the top level. They are all slightly different flavors of the same ice cream brand. I'm talking Iowa, PSU, tOSU, OSU, Cornell, etc. They all have great coaching, storied programs, more than adequate facilities. What's not to like with any of them if you're a recruit? The biggest difference I see across the board that is separating schools is a commitment to a high level RTC managed as an extension to the program. It's a self sustaining marketing tool that appeals to many elite wrestlers, and so the chances of having 3-4 elite wrestlers in your lineup rather than 1-2 guys is much higher. As an example, compare Iowa to OKST and PSU. If you take off your Iowa hat, the programs have many of the same things going for them, but again the main difference is that Okst has little to show for its RTC program and thus lags further than Iowa does in that dept. Ohio State and PSU are fuly committed to an integrated RTC and I think it shows in recruiting over the last 6-8 years. To a slightly lesser extent, Cornell has done well extending its program with its RTC.

Obviously there are dozens of variables than go into a junior committing to a school, but if I sit back and look at the landscape long enough, those schools with robust RTCs that are managed as an extension to the program (legally of course) are having some advantage attracting the kids who make it to Saturday night.

I'm not saying that's the answer to your question but it's my gut reaction to your question.
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Of course, having millions of dollars sitting in your RTC's bank account certainly makes it easier to have a "robust" RTC.

The way I see it it all boils down to money. PSU has good coaches, we have good coaches. Those extra millions allows PSU to do the things we don't have the resources for.

I guarantee if one of you schlubs won the lottery and donated half your purse to the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, PSU and Iowa would be 50/50 battling tooth and nail for the top recruits year in/out.
 
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It's in Willie's best interest to be as unbiased as possible. He's smart enough to know that. I also think he knows the landscape of the wrestling scene as well as anyone. I also think the best way for any person/organization to improve is the ability to take constructive criticism and adapt.

BTW, to answer my own question the main two differences are money & location. PSU has more $ & is in the hot bed for high school wrestling. With that said I think any program has room for improvement if they seek it out.
 
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herkcy said:
It's in Willie's best interest to be as unbiased as possible. He's smart enough to know that. I also think he knows the landscape of the wrestling scene as well as anyone. I also think the best way for any person/organization to improve is the ability to take constructive criticism and adapt.

BTW, to answer my own question the main two differences are money & location. PSU has more $ & is in the hot bed for high school wrestling. With that said I think any program has room for improvement if they seek it out.
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they haven't relied on PA talent for years. their only PA starter was Starocci (unless you count bartlett who is really from AZ).
 
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The NLWC is a HUGE asset to PSU... Zain Retherford, Jason Nolf, David Taylor, Kyle Snyder, TG, etc. Add in Jake Varner as coach, and BOOM! I know money talks, but Iowa just can't compete with the level of talent PSU/NLWC has available as coaches/training partners.
... to build on this, Iowa's most accomplished coaches, Tom and Terry, are both lightweights (and getting a little old) as is HWC coach Dan Dennis. God bless them, but Morningstar and Telford just don't have the credentials that PSU can boast - not knocking either of them, not saying they aren't great coaches and people (and they would both certainly kick my a--) but are they top-level enough to truly raise Iowa to the next level? Honest question/reflection.... adding to the credential part, HWC just doesn't have elite members - again, I know money talks.
Hopefully, AD, JE, and Kem join the HWC (and Spencer and Cass after next year). After Spencer, Kem the most, and then Cass, as Iowa desperately needs middle/upper weight stud wrestlers/coaches to help raise the bar.
Hopefully, the new facility allows Iowa to grow the program and HWC - especially the level of talent. In that regard, Iowa also needs to look outside the program for HWC members to add a little new flavor in my opinion.
Rambling thoughts, and just my two cents - I know it's easier said than done.
 
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It is the $$$$ and the ability to use the money in anyway you wish with no restrictions from the school/NCAA. The 9.9 has not mattered to F*** st for many years now. If you do not see and understand this? Well I have several bridges over here to sell you. They bring in whomever they want while no other team has caught up yet.

This NIL money has/is/will change college sports as we once knew it. It is imperative that IOWA gets and stays on top of this. The coaches must use the advantages that they have, such as the largest fan base, a new womens program etc.....

it appears that Ohio st. will be joining F*** st if they haven't already? With the size of that school, location, etc.... They could be an up and coming force that will need to also be contended with. I currently do not see any other major threats, but could see schools like Arizona St... stepping up. you may also see a team come out of nowhere because someone throws big $$$$ their way.

We or really the coaches, need to make it where the 9.9 is meaningless to us too PERIOD!
 
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Money underlies everything in life, so to me it's so general in nature that why mention it. It's what you do with money that makes the difference, both in wrestling and in life. If Iowa spends a million more on their facilities than PSU and both sets of facilities are stellar, does it make a difference with recruits? Obviously the NLWC is flush with cash, but it's how they manage and spend (or don't spend) the cash that is important.
 
It's not relying on Pa. talent , it's being in the best high school wrestling area that matters. It's like Bama in football , being the top SEC in a football crazy conference keeps them in the spotlight .
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
Money underlies everything in life, so to me it's so general in nature that why mention it. It's what you do with money that makes the difference, both in wrestling and in life. If Iowa spends a million more on their facilities than PSU and both sets of facilities are stellar, does it make a difference with recruits? Obviously the NLWC is flush with cash, but it's how they manage and spend (or don't spend) the cash that is important.
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Location and tradition play a part in this too . By now psu has established tradition , most seniors were in kindergarten when Sanderson started at PSU.
 
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I don’t understand the location argument when it comes to PSU dominance. RBY is from Arizona, Nick Lee from Indiana, Aaron Brooks from Maryland, and Max Dean from Michigan. Only 1/5 champs from Pennsylvania while over half of Iowa’s studs are from PA. If being in PA was the key to success, then their winners would come from there.

It’s all about the money, plain and simple.
 
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When you can roll around with David Taylor before your match with Warner, that's a confidence booster and a selling point. In a few years, Spencer Lee at the HWC will attract kids for the same reason. Who wouldn't want to drill with those guys? But you need "best in class" in your RTC at 4-5 weights in order to integrate the RTC with the program. Iowa needs world class upperweights at the HWC who can teach as well as drill.

I know money makes the world go round and someone mentioned needing a booster to fund the HWC and that's probably the literal truth. Every school needs an "angel" to properly fund a RTC, but the funds need to be managed wisely and you still need close coordination between the program and the RTC in order to gain maximum value for the money.
 
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Nope, Yogi Berra once said nobody goes there anymore , it too crowded. People laughed at Yogisms but there's truth in what he said.
A place can get so popular that everyone wants to go there .
Psu is that wrestling destination now. I've said it multiple times but if my don was a top recruit PSU was it, of not PSU another quality local school would be it.
And it would be academics that sealed the deal not money. I'd save a ton of money and see him more often if he was at PSU or Lehigh first, then maybe Cornell, Princeton , or Penn. Sll arguably better than Iowa and n engineering, his career right now.
Bring the hot school and having the notoriety that goes with it is a huge deal in recruiting , to state the obvious.
 
Dont_Just_Dream said:
The NLWC is a HUGE asset to PSU... Zain Retherford, Jason Nolf, David Taylor, Kyle Snyder, TG, etc. Add in Jake Varner as coach, and BOOM! I know money talks, but Iowa just can't compete with the level of talent PSU/NLWC has available as coaches/training partners.
... to build on this, Iowa's most accomplished coaches, Tom and Terry, are both lightweights (and getting a little old) as is HWC coach Dan Dennis. God bless them, but Morningstar and Telford just don't have the credentials that PSU can boast - not knocking either of them, not saying they aren't great coaches and people (and they would both certainly kick my a--) but are they top-level enough to truly raise Iowa to the next level? Honest question/reflection.... adding to the credential part, HWC just doesn't have elite members - again, I know money talks.
Hopefully, AD, JE, and Kem join the HWC (and Spencer and Cass after next year). After Spencer, Kem the most, and then Cass, as Iowa desperately needs middle/upper weight stud wrestlers/coaches to help raise the bar.
Hopefully, the new facility allows Iowa to grow the program and HWC - especially the level of talent. In that regard, Iowa also needs to look outside the program for HWC members to add a little new flavor in my opinion.
Rambling thoughts, and just my two cents - I know it's easier said than done.
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I think there is one title between Cunningham, Cody Sanderson, Morningstar, Telford so I don't know if the credentials are as far apart as you think between assistant coaches.

To your point, I wholeheartedly agree we need to improve our upper middle weight studs and this could be supplemented with a big time coach / RTC player around that weight. I see RTCs like Michigan land a guy like Deiringer and wonder if/when we're going to get a similar transfer?
 
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YoungGun07 said:
I think it comes down to Penn State being healthy, loose, and excited to win at NCAA's while Iowa is almost always injured, worn down, and scared to lose at NCAA's.
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Could be, I've competed in powerlifting as a teen into my fifties. It took me 25 years to just go with the flow, do the work, and let it all hang out.
You chose this, you said you want this , so do it hard. I was mid to late 40s when I grasped it. Unfortunately a little to late lol. I stopped competing last year at 57/58 because even just heavy deadlift training was banging me up too much.
My shoulders were already compromised so heavy squats and benches were out for awhile prior to that.
But yeah, making it fun is both easy, but hard to grasp. It's enjoying the process . I think Sanderson has it down .
 
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Don't forget Nickal came from Texas. If you are 157lb+ wrestler, hard not to jump to PSU with the talent in the room. The track record is insane. They are even starting to develop light weights, so by association the whole room is benefitting from what was only the 184+ group. Hate it, but recognize to re-valuate how to beat them. 1st stop gap is keeping kids healthy their whole career. Don't think that isn't being push against Iowa in recruiting now.
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
Money underlies everything in life, so to me it's so general in nature that why mention it. It's what you do with money that makes the difference, both in wrestling and in life. If Iowa spends a million more on their facilities than PSU and both sets of facilities are stellar, does it make a difference with recruits? Obviously the NLWC is flush with cash, but it's how they manage and spend (or don't spend) the cash that is important.
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Here is the thing with money. Gable got the money because he was Gable and people wanted to support a winner. People gave because they figured he would produce. Cael has the money also, because people believe he will produce.

If Cael went to tOSU or NC State orVT or ASU, he would still get the money, because people believe in him. When I listen to him and his wrestlers talk, they are coming from a different place then most people and that is coming down from Cael and the staff.

Gable took his guys to another level in a different time. They understood him and he was able to communicate in a way that drove them to excellence.

Cael is doing the same with his guys, but it is a different generation and they need to be communicated to differently. He seems to speak their language and the results show it. Cael isn't successful because he has so much money. Cael has so much money because the people with money think he will be successful.

With all that being said - what the Brands are doing at Iowa is phenomenal and the positive impact they are having on the lives of the kids in their program is worthy of saint hood. Every0one should take time to be grateful for what they have done and will do and spend less time fixating on their perceived shortcomings. IMHO
 
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Make NO MISTAKE, being in PA matters a LOT. Even in years where they aren't PA heavy with starters, having the pick of the litter from there is huge and makes for great room depth. Also, they seem to have an inside track to bordering NJ and a solid reach to Ohio as well.

Now, there is no doubt they recruit nationally better than anyone, with tOSU being the only school to recently challenge that success. But, PSU still has a 2xer, with 3 more chances in Starroci, Bartlett(wrestled for a PA school regardless of where he came from), an AA like Beard sitting behind NCAA Champ Dean and Steen as a possible 125 depending on how Howard comes back from injury. Levi Haines is heavily heralded, coming in next year from PA. Howard and Van Ness are supposed to be 2 very important parts out of NJ.

Still, PA wrestlers have paid a huge part in their success over the years and I can't think of ANY PA wrestler they really went after, going anywhere else, except Spencer Lee.

Here are the post season starters from PA over Sanderson's tenure:

2022: Starroci-22, Bartlett-1. Edsell-0.
2021: Starocci-21, Beard-9.5, Bartlett-0.
2020: Covid-Meredith, Verkleeren, Joseph.
2019: Schnupp-0, Nolf-26, Joseph-18.
2018: Keener-.5, Retherford-25, Nolf-23, Joseph-21.
2017: Law-0, Gulibon-4.5, Retherford-28, Nolf-27, Joseph-23, McCutcheon-4.
2016: Megaludis-21, Conaway-9, Gulibon-3, Retherford-28.5, Nolf-22, Morelli-1.5, McCutcheon-0.
2015: Conaway-5.5, Gulibon-11, Beitz-2, Frey-0, Hammond-0, McCutcheon-3.5.
2014: Megaludis-14, Gulibon-1.5, Retherford-12, English-6.5, Alton-1.5, Ruth-24.5, Gingrich-2.
2013: Megaludis-18.5, Conaway-3.5, Pearsall-1.5, Alton-2.5, Alton-3, Ruth-26, Wright-22.
2012: Megaludis-17, Martellotti-.5, Pearsall-0, Alton-14.5, Ruth-26.5, Wright-20.
2011: Pataky-.5, Alton-5, Vollrath-0, Ruth-17.5, Wright-22, Ruggear-0.
2010: Pataky-2, Pearsall-0, Lynch-0, Ortega-0, Steadman-0.
 
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My honest opinion is program management. If you look at all of the best programs in the country throughout sports (Mike K., Nick S., ect.), they have excellent management and their leaders delegate responsibilities very well. They're all very well organized. Obviously talent, talent evaluation, coaching ect. is very important, but there has to be a clear plan. It's a program, not just a team. You can see this in business as well, the most profitable organizations have the best leaders who install structure throughout the organization then insert the best people to execute their plan.

Take a training cycle for example, from what I've read Cody S. is in charge of putting together the cycle. Cody graduated pre-med and from what I understand, has been taking notes on their training cycle for the last 15 years or so and they've been tweaking the cycle according to results to achieve what the best results for the national tournament.

Just an outsiders opinion, but I see this all the time in the business world. Penn State seems to be a very calculated well run program.
 
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From a purely strategic standpoint, the biggest difference I see between Penn State and Iowa is in their respective approaches to constructing line-ups.

Penn State goes all-in on having five studs--guys who are all but locks to wrestle on Saturday night, either as freshmen or sophomores. The rest of the line-up is almost an afterthought. It is rare that PSU qualifies all ten weights for NCAAs, and most Penn State title teams have had six or fewer AAs. I suspect (though don't have strong evidence to support) that there is a long-term element to the way in which PSU goes about recruiting and constructing its line-up. For instance, the emergence of Spencer Lee has coincided with PSU being extremely weak at 125; Yianni at 149 has also coincided with PSU getting few points at that weight.

Iowa, on the other hand, still seems to employ the "complete line-up" strategy, where the idea is to have all ten weights qualify for nationals and ideally, pick up points (even if it's just 1 or 2). Obviously, Iowa also has its share of title contenders, but I think there's a lot more emphasis on (and thus, resources committed to) fielding what is essentially a competitive dual team, and hoping that translates into points at NCAAs.

Each approach has its merits, and a lot comes down to execution (as so many others have noted). But, I think it is worth considering the bigger strategic picture, too.
 
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lookleft goright said:
Here is the thing with money. Gable got the money because he was Gable and people wanted to support a winner. People gave because they figured he would produce. Cael has the money also, because people believe he will produce.

If Cael went to tOSU or NC State orVT or ASU, he would still get the money, because people believe in him. When I listen to him and his wrestlers talk, they are coming from a different place then most people and that is coming down from Cael and the staff.

Gable took his guys to another level in a different time. They understood him and he was able to communicate in a way that drove them to excellence.

Cael is doing the same with his guys, but it is a different generation and they need to be communicated to differently. He seems to speak their language and the results show it. Cael isn't successful because he has so much money. Cael has so much money because the people with money think he will be successful.

With all that being said - what the Brands are doing at Iowa is phenomenal and the positive impact they are having on the lives of the kids in their program is worthy of saint hood. Every0one should take time to be grateful for what they have done and will do and spend less time fixating on their perceived shortcomings. IMHO
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If Cael was so great and people only handed him money because he proved he was a great coach then he wouldn't have had to flee Iowa State to go to PSU.
 
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The BS that the great fall is just SoooOOOOO wonderful is just getting very old!!!! The " he wipes their tushy" crap is also getting old!!! It is $$$$$ and it is the school and NCAA looking the other way PERIOD!!! Tell me what coach wouldn't have won titles with the line ups he had?

Again, just this past year in their line up. They recruited OVER AA type Heavy, and 197. Two kids who could be wrestling just about anywhere! they also brought in two more kids mid season to fill voids. You explain to me how you pay for this with 9.9??? Forget it. You don't is the answer.

Now it has been posted that RBY wants $165K from the Alumni to return next year. Is this a joke? My bet is it is not a joke! He has been playing this game since his "i drink a Bang energy drink before every match!" BS. It will not be long before we see kids running out with jackets like Nascar!!!

Offer EVERY top kid in the country FULL RIDES + all the NIL $$$$ they can make!
 
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IRONBIRD said:
The BS that the great fall is just SoooOOOOO wonderful is just getting very old!!!! The " he wipes their tushy" crap is also getting old!!! It is $$$$$ and it is the school and NCAA looking the other way PERIOD!!! Tell me what coach wouldn't have won titles with the line ups he had?

Again, just this past year in their line up. They recruited OVER AA type Heavy, and 197. Two kids who could be wrestling just about anywhere! they also brought in two more kids mid season to fill voids. You explain to me how you pay for this with 9.9??? Forget it. You don't is the answer.

Now it has been posted that RBY wants $165K from the Alumni to return next year. Is this a joke? My bet is it is not a joke! He has been playing this game since his "i drink a Bang energy drink before every match!" BS. It will not be long before we see kids running out with jackets like Nascar!!!

Offer EVERY top kid in the country FULL RIDES + all the NIL $$$$ they can make!
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Yep the only limiting factor is roster limits and if a kid doesn't want to sit on the bench. Clearly they pay enough that kids are happy to collect their money even if they don't wrestle.
 
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MVPFAN said:
Yep the only limiting factor is roster limits and if a kid doesn't want to sit on the bench. Clearly they pay enough that kids are happy to collect their money even if they don't wrestle.
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i do find it strange that roster limits are imposed in football and basketball, but other sports seems to be a free for all. Is it because there are scholarship limits in those sports as they are full schollies, vs others which are percentages?
 
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LutherAce said:
i do find it strange that roster limits are imposed in football and basketball, but other sports seems to be a free for all. Is it because there are scholarship limits in those sports as they are full schollies, vs others which are percentages?
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I believe, and I'm not an expert...that roster size in non-revenue sports can fluxuate quite a bit....as long as they fall in line with title 9...so PSU (just using them as example) couldn't have a roster of 60 kids no matter how much money they have...it would throw the title 9 compliance out of whack.
 
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