Recruiting battles
- Thread starter rossel 33
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Deflect much? I am not arguing anything to do with Brands' recruiting. My argument was VERY SPECIFIC to disingenuously acting like Cassar was an average High School wrestler and was somehow "transformed" into a monster. I gave very specific data to support said argument.
It’s futile.
Kasak was top 10 for quite some time and I believe he finished around 10th in the last rankings. Davis, whom I watched a ton coming from MI, was just a tad outside of that ranking area, in the 30's, and finished R12 in a weight with a ton of parity, but no real stand outs.
Now, I do think both have flourished in the PSU room. But, they aren't exactly bums turning into superstars...
Come on , man. You are usually one of the more reasonable PSU guys that post over here. If you actually pay attention, I clearly say PSU also does a very good job developing. Hell, I have actually even said that in this thread. My area of contention is simply against anyone acting like Cassar came to PSU as a "NOT good wrestler" and was somehow magically transformed into one.
Cael, VERY MUCH knew what he was getting before Cassar ever stepped on a PSU mat...
saying he was average or not good in high school is dumb
but his credentials don't indicate he was destined to be an ncaaa champ, let alone someone who would go 2-0 against a future olympic gold medalist.
he was 1 of 9 undefeated NJ state champs that year and junior world teams are littered with guys who never did anything in college. nathan butler was the world team member at 285 that year and placed 4th. his best finish at ncaas was R12
Show me where I said average, disingenuous goal post mover.
The original term used was "Big Time Recruit." Tell me, how many school's offered Cassar a full-ride (like such a recruit would expect)?
I will tell you this, he wasn't even a average heavyweight, since he never wrestled heavyweight. So he was 100% developed into a full-feed championship caliber heavyweight at PSU.
It's clear I specifically addressed Iron point by point, similar to two others. Difference being the others have the sense not to reply to you. And did I say you took the Brands can't recruit position? I'll save you from looking. I didn’t.
Not interested in your narrowed down self-defined and redefined terms created with 20-20 hindsight as you spout along to try to appear correct.
The board here seems to have congealed around top-10 PFP hammers up and down the line-up as the key to future success. And it also sees recruiting as part of coaching. Was posting to Iron using the general consensus of the board. Others seem to readily grasp this.
Speak for yourself, but if I could eat my own dick, I would never leave the house, let alone have time to post on a Hawkeye forum.
LOL, I DIDN'T use ANY hindsight. I literally pointed to his 43ish and ZERO record along with the fact that he won Juniors and went on to take 8th at Junior Worlds. Both of which happened BEFORE he ever wrestled a single match for PSU...
Also, are you really making the argument that if a wrestler gains weight after High School, it is a major "developing" for all coaching staffs? So, by that argument, tOSU did a massive "100%" development of Kyle Snyder?
Appears the argument has transitioned from recruiting abilities to talent development. I think what is being forgotten is coaching is important towards development, but it's equally important to have a room full of quality training partners. Due to their ability to constantly snag top 10 recruits PSU has increased their ability to out-develop every program as well.
would you expect anyone who goes undefeated as a senior and/or makes one junior world team to do what cassar did in his one season as a starter?
those are great wreslting accomplishments - they are not particularly great, or at least not particularly uncommon, credentials for an ncaa wrestler
If you read through my posts on this site, I CLEARLY state PSU also develops their top recruits. My argument in this topic is very simple and very specific. Cassar was not some "project" like many want to claim. I am simply stating, he was MUCH BETTER coming out of High School than he is being given credit for and simply was not the massive development many are trying to claim...
that's where we disagree (i think so at least, you won't actually just answer the question)
i don't think his high school or junior freestyle credentials indicate he's a guy who would go 2-0 against steveson and win a b1g and ncaa title
not without significant (or even "massive") development
To be clear, I don't expect ANYONE coming out of High School to win an NCAA title at any point, until I have seen them wrestle DI competition. So, that argument isn't relevant to this argument.
But, I DO think undefeated Junior World Team members go near the very top of recruits and expectations. In fact, someone has already posted, in the past, results that pretty much confirm that success over time...
Finally, yes, I think a fully developed senior in Cassar had plenty of indications, as long as he stayed healthy, that he could beat a pudgy true freshman in Gable, by 1 point twice. In fact, I would even argue that Steveson himself said as much when he stated he changed his whole training regimen and transformed his body after that season, because he admitted he was sort of "going through the motions" in many aspects of his training and realized he needed more conditioning and strength training for the weight class...
I am. I just meant that each arguing over the exact meaning of what each wrote is going to go through a 14 post exchange with neither conceding an inch.
Yeah. I am.
So Cassar literally did none of the things you are claiming. He won a state championship as a senior in New Jersey. Didn't beat a single ranked wrestler, didn't go to a single "national" level tournament.
He did not win Junior Nationals that summer. He won it AFTER his redshirt year - 2015. So yeah, that's a huge feather in the cap of development at PSU.
First off, I am not calling anyone a bum. I was simply using an extreme to prove an overall point. Also, I did give PSU credit for English in this exact topic. I think plenty of DI coaches deserve a ton of credit for getting guys onto the podium, that were nowhere near ready for that coming out of High School.
To me, it is much more about the limitations of rankers being human and only seeing so much of a wrestler across 50 states and 1000's of wrestlers per class. Truly, developing "average" DI recruits into NCAA Champs is a rarity. Kollin Moore could maybe be argued, but I also think he was much better talent wise, if a bit raw, coming out of High School. tOSU still deserves a ton of credit for his results, but I think he probably does just as well at plenty of other schools.
Maybe, Macchiavello is the most recent example of "average" DI recruit into NCAA Champ. Instead of us just bickering, please tell me what recruits you believe fall into the more "average" DI recruit category that were turned into NCAA Champs. I just don't see that many and I certainly don't see it at PSU...
He wasn't a Junior World Team member as a "recruit" - because you're right, that would have put him pretty damn high up the list of high school wrestlers.
You're just wrong. And really, it can be said - Cassar is probably the ONLY "lesser" recruit that Carl has made an NCAA champ.
I have no issue with that statement. However, the way it was worded and who you responded to made the intent seem considerably different...
So, you are saying Cael turned him into a Junior National Champ and Junior World Team Member, right after High School. How, exactly? If you can prove he did that, I will happily defer to you on this topic...
IT WAS AFTER HIS REDSHIRT YEAR. That means he had a full year where the only coaching he received was from Carl and crew. They certainly deserve all of the credit for developing someone that, previously, had NEVER shown to be on that level.
As someone who had a hand in starting this fire, I agree with the above.
The contrast? Iowa hasn't recruited and "made" anyone an NCAA champ in the last 10 years. Spencer Lee, considered a generational level talent coming in, doesn't count. Even if you count him it's still incredibly sad.
Moore at least placed at Super 32 his senior year. But you're right about Macchiavello. 1x state champ in NC, and a 2x Flonats placer - that's a great story of development.
The guy never left the Tri-State Area and that is why he wasn't ranked that high or "NEVER" showed he was at that level. But, again, if you actually watched him wrestle, which Cael did, you KNEW he was much better than what the rankers said. In fact, go back through what Cael has said about him. He absolutely KNEW what he was getting before Anthony every stepped on the mat.
With that said, I know this is going nowhere. The PSU faithful aren't going to budge any on this topic and neither will the "faux Hawk fan" I am responding to....
I think you left out him being a junior national champion before college. Not picking nits since it's such a small tidbit to leave out.
Laughable response. Show me where I did. He wrestle 197 when he beat Moore. He wrestled 96kg at junior worlds. He didn't put on good weight as part of an overall development plan until the off season before taking out Gable Steveson. Yes, that is part of his development.
Cael is supposed to have tried to convince Kyle Snyder to go HWT vs 197, and that disagreement contributed to Kyle going to tOSU. Too bad, he might have a been PSU 4-timer had he gone HWT at PSU.
I didn't leave that out. He won FILA Junior Nationals and FILA World Team Trials the summer after his redshirt freshman year (2015)
He won a state title and graduated in 2014.
So it's a little confusing because him winning "Junior Nationals" wasn't Fargo. Even threw me for a loop, and had to go back and check the results from Fargo just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind.
The guy never left the Tri-State Area and that is why he wasn't ranked that high or "NEVER" showed he was at that level. But, again, if you actually watched him wrestle, which Cael did, you KNEW he was much better than what the rankers said. In fact, go back through what Cael has said about him. He absolutely KNEW what he was getting before Anthony every stepped on the mat.
With that said, I know this is going nowhere. The PSU faithful aren't going to budge any on this topic and neither will the "faux Hawk fan" I am responding to....
And if my aunt had balls... yada, yada, yada. LOL
The same could be said for a LOT of kids that wrestle. If he really wanted to go to Fargo, or any other national tournament, he would have. He wrestled at Malinconico's club - that dude would have figured it out for him.
The only thing you're doing is complimenting Carl when you say he "watched" him wrestle and "KNEW he was much better than what the rankers said" - we give that bald-headed, tight-lipped Mormon enough credit. How dare you! LOL
I quoted someone else but I will defer to whatever year it was. The dude developed and ended up really good regardless of supplements or any side arguments. I'm on the side that he was a late bloomer who was a stud in the making by his senior year. He still obviously developed and thrived there.
This response is all over the place. In the post I replied to you, you literally used the argument that he wasn't even an average heavyweight because he was yet to even be a heavyweight and then he was 100% "developed" into an NCAA Champ because PSU magically made him gain the "right" weight and therefore he only became the "right" heavyweight because of how he gained it at PSU....lmfao
I especially love the stretch to not only discount Snyder, but act like Cael and Sanderson somehow had something to do with his success and, at certain points, lack there of...
Both wrestled at Who's Number 1. No way could you consider them "projects"
Cassar definitely jump many levels while at Penn st. Regardless of how much hate one has for Penn st saying Cassar didn't develop big time at Penn is asinine
Get a room and save the rest of us the wasted reading......
If you actually pay attention, I give Cael credit all the time. I think he is the best overall there has ever been at the DI level. Hell, even on here, I say what he has done is better than what Gable did. My arguments here are more with some crazy PSU fans, and because I enjoy it.
I just think the biggest part of their success comes down to recruiting and many PSU fans get really mad like that is some type of slam. Meanwhile, they ignore that I often say that PSU is also at or near the top in almost every other coaching category that matters...
All good. Fair points. Cassar is just literally the only guy who falls outside of the "top recruit" level who won a chip. Barring injuries, Sheed was looking like one of those as well.
And yeah, I know you're complimentary of Carl, that was me giving you a little dig.
Not sure I'd go as far to say as he's better than what Gable did. Gable AVERAGED 7.8 AAs a year. That is an incredible number.
Out of respect to you and the others that I am sure agree with you, I will try to summarize and leave it to this:
Cassar was absolutely developed at PSU into an NCAA Champ. I simply just don't think that development level was all that much more than many of their other champs. If we disagree on that part, I think enough has been said on here either way, that if you aren't changing your mind, you aren't going to
Use of hyperbole doesn't help prove a point. My point was you moved the goal post further and made it even narrower through your turn of that particular phrase. Wholly consistent with your M.O.
I define a "Big Time Recruit" logically and only as a recruit with lots of full-ride offers from top wrestling schools. Now-a-days translate that to substantial NIL opportunities. You apparently define the the term to include "an undefeated Senior Year in NJ."
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