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Study Finds Inflammatory Heart Condition Myocarditis in 37 of 1,597 (2.3%) B1G Athletes After They Tested Positive for Covid

So youre using your own definition rather than definitions set by health depts, CDC, etc. Which begs the question again; why are self defining it to be more severe than the agencies tasked with guidance? There's a very good reason for the distinction; so we (as a local community) can make concessions and protect the actual at risk. Not turn lives upside for a population that has essentially zero risk.
As to your last point; anecdotal examples don't make any points. How about the dozens of people I know that had it and it was on par with a mild cold...or didn't even know they had it? Doesn't matter does it? Stats matter.
It's the logical definition because it describes people who died that would not have in the absence of the virus. Is that not the very definition of its mortality?

If you start saying "well they had COPD, they were going to die anyway"...well that's true for all of us. We are all going to due anyway. I guess the mortality rate is zero....we were all going to die anyway. Where do you draw that line?

Again, death isn't the only life changing impact. Now consider the impact in areas that were hit before we took actions to mitigate its spread. It doesn't take a genius to see we were all headed for that. Well, maybe it does....
 
What am I spinning? Read what I posted, no spin there just facts. I’m sorry this post hasn’t worked out for the OP like they thought it would.

You said the story was old news. It is not. The study being published and the discussion of the results of the study are all very RECENT.

Your posts have clearly not worked out for you like you thought they would.

But hey, you are from Mediapolis. Not surprised you are backwards in your thinking.
 
OK, we ALL get that COVID is real, that some folks are more prone or in higher-risk categories than others, and that it was both overblown AND a threat. But seriously--and I'm as guilty as anyone--let's try and stop the personal attacks. Let's just stay with the original post/story.

We know that there are, to this point, a certain number of players that contracted it. We know that a percentage of those have shown to develop myocarditis, and some of those showed no cardiac symptoms. So, let's stick with that.

The question(s) become(s), how long will it last? When, if ever, can they return to the playing field? And lastly, what will be done to maintain follow-up, and what determines "safe"? Seriously, let's not allow personal beliefs, opinions, experiences, etc., blow into making this all a fight. We're all, every one of us, better than that. The concern is those people, including these players, that have had it, and what lasting effects may be.

I know, from email correspondence, that some parents were actually NOT upset with postponing, or even cancelling, this past football season. Much as I wanted a season, I get it. No parent wants their kids taking that risk, even if those kids wanted to play, desperately wanted to play. Some players opted out. We can question whether or not it was safety concerns, or preserving their future chances of on-field success. All of those questions are valid.

There are still questions going into the 2021 season. Is it safe to have fans, and to what level will fans be comfortable? HIPAA and privacy being what it is, we may never know exactly how many players on a given team had it, or which players. I would guess some had more severe cases, while some wouldn't have known they had it if not for mandatory testing.

In the end, we want players, staffs, students, and fans to be safe. We want the game to be enjoyable for everyone who loves it. Given NIL, transfers/portal, the possibility of player unions or revenue-sharing, et. al., that the game may well become far less enjoyable than previously. Let's not have a simple study be the thing that creates all this animosity. We have a second- and third-string QB that should be starting to give us our "real" arguments and dissension. I fear we'll all burn ourselves out by the time we need to get into our annual in-season Festivus for "the airing of the grievances" :)

The study had 1597 athletes. As I stated above, I hope they continue to monitor all 1597 for several decades to see what long term effects covid had on them. Hopefully there are minimal long term effects.

Science is a good thing. Information is a good thing. I think these 1597 are actually lucky to be a part of this study, because again, cardiac MRIs are not cheap. Only 37 developed myocarditis and hopefully their hearts go back to normal. Hopefully all 1597 live long, healthy lives and we continue to learn more and more about covid and its long term effects.
 
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Both my children had COVID, as did my wife and myself. There was never a time that I worried about myself, or them. I think it’s time to move on and stop with the panic porn. Also. Disagreement isn’t political. I just disagree.

And you and your family members, unless you have symptoms, likely will never get a cardiac MRI because of the cost.

I would not call this study or other related studies panic porn. I would simply call it scientists and Medical Doctors trying to learn more about covid so as to benefit society.
 
You said the story was old news. It is not. The study being published and the discussion of the results of the study are all very RECENT.

Your posts have clearly not worked out for you like you thought they would.

But hey, you are from Mediapolis. Not surprised you are backwards in your thinking.

We’ve known that myocarditis is a complication of viral illnesses for DECADES. The bigger news would be if there weren’t instances of it from COVID. You have consistently latched on to panic porn like this over the past year to try to make points and been wrong. In fairness most people have because it’s almost impossible to ignore when the media has been pushing it 24/7/365 for clicks and to drive preferred political narratives.


“Viral infection of the heart is relatively common and usually of little consequence.”

“Cardiac involvement in viral illnesses is common and may often go unnoticed.”

“In the United States and other developed countries, viral infections are most frequently the cause of myocarditis”



 
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It's the logical definition because it describes people who died that would not have in the absence of the virus. Is that not the very definition of its mortality?

If you start saying "well they had COPD, they were going to die anyway"...well that's true for all of us. We are all going to due anyway. I guess the mortality rate is zero....we were all going to die anyway. Where do you draw that line?

Again, death isn't the only life changing impact. Now consider the impact in areas that were hit before we took actions to mitigate its spread. It doesn't take a genius to see we were all headed for that. Well, maybe it does....
It's not logical if you have a different definition or qualifiers than the actual agencies we're supposed to trusting to guide.

And you're right, death isn't the only life changing impact - many lost businesses, life savings, missed critical medical screenings, lost wages, advancement opportunity, education, etc because of overreach.
 
It's the logical definition because it describes people who died that would not have in the absence of the virus. Is that not the very definition of its mortality?

If you start saying "well they had COPD, they were going to die anyway"...well that's true for all of us. We are all going to due anyway. I guess the mortality rate is zero....we were all going to die anyway. Where do you draw that line?

Again, death isn't the only life changing impact. Now consider the impact in areas that were hit before we took actions to mitigate its spread. It doesn't take a genius to see we were all headed for that. Well, maybe it does....

There is more than one line to draw. First, the CDC, the Democrats and their propaganda press should have been honestly reporting this to the American people instead of using hysteria and fear porn to terrify people and blame it on Trump and Republican governors. If you cannot acknowledge this then you are living in an alternative reality, and the poster above that said the train left the station is spot on.

Second, after the first few weeks when T-19 first hit and picked off the low hanging fruit, we already knew the virus was spreading much slower than represented. When last I dug into the data only around 1% of the population had T-19 at any one time. The number of recovered was never reported to provide the context of how unlikely it was for the general public to even encounter someone with T-19?

Third, your mother, for example, should have recognized she was more at risk and she should have changed her behavior. Merchants should not have been required to close their business and lay off their employees to protect her and the entire country required to change its behavior. You could have been bringing her food and taking care of the other things that required Mom to leave the house and Village Inn could have stayed in business rather than closing and eliminating thousands of jobs, which will, in turn, cause physical and psychological damage to the owners, the franchisees, the employees.

Reductio ad absurdum is a formal fallacy. No one ever said of all the victims of T-19 "were going to die anyway" but the unpleasant reality is that many, statistically most, were already in major health crises with short life expectancies anyway. The target risk group could have been protected without the shut downs and damage to others, yet you seem unwilling to even contemplate such a result-the crises of imagination that eats away in the socialist totalitarianism where the leaders speak and the masses uncritically accept it as truth and act accordingly. National policy needs to balance damage to the many against damage to the few. Why did you never hear that 90% of C+ were asymptomatic or insufficiently ill to require any medical attention? Why did you never hear that almost no hospitals were ever out of capacity, rather than hearing about every incident where some hospital somewhere had a one or two day crush. Remember New York-they demanded 40,000 respirators when it turned out they needed 4000, and already had a stockpile of 2,000. Again, New York squealed that it had insufficient hospital space, Trump spends federal money to send a mobile military hospital and a massive USN hospital ship-and they're never used because NYC's hospital system was not overrun. Are you even aware of facts like I'm discussing. They're not conspiracy theories or Trumpkins it is the actual historical factual experience of what happened.

The CDC data shows a Covid death had an average of 2.5 co morbidities. That alone should tell you the risk exaggeration to the average person. Since the average is 2.5 it means more people had 3 co-morbidities, you know diseases or conditions that could have caused their death, than just two. Someone with just two alternative causes of death would describe an already very sick person not someone with pre emphysema COPD. Policy should have been targeted to protect the at risk population without the aforesaid devastating overreaction that was made to seem necessary by the lies and exaggerations

You do not need to be a genius to simply look at the real numbers, ignore all the rhetoric and realize that you were repeatedly, intentionally and maliciously lied to by partisans in government and media to secure a political result. A devastating response to a very limited threat to the average person. Then think of what kind of people would float and support such a devastating lie and ask yourself about what else would they lie to gain more political power.​
 
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You said the story was old news. It is not. The study being published and the discussion of the results of the study are all very RECENT.

Your posts have clearly not worked out for you like you thought they would.

But hey, you are from Mediapolis. Not surprised you are backwards in your thinking.
I said the topic is old news not the particular story as I referred to the talk about it before football season last year. But keep thinking that as you obviously can’t understand or don’t want to. Also, what’s where I live have to do with anything, though I’m not actually from there as I didn’t grow up there, but good try stereotyping a whole town.
 
We’ve known that myocarditis is a complication of viral illnesses for DECADES. The bigger news would be if there weren’t instances of it from COVID. You have consistently latched on to panic porn like this over the past year to try to make points and been wrong. In fairness most people have because it’s almost impossible to ignore when the media has been pushing it 24/7/365 for clicks and to drive preferred political narratives.


“Viral infection of the heart is relatively common and usually of little consequence.”

“Cardiac involvement in viral illnesses is common and may often go unnoticed.”

“In the United States and other developed countries, viral infections are most frequently the cause of myocarditis”




You are wrong because Covid 19 is not some well known, ordinary virus that is causing myocarditis and other health complications (clots, lung damage, etc).

We simply don't know the short term AND long term effects of this virus.

Thankfully, we have medical doctors and scientists conducting studies like this so that the public can be informed. And fact and science based information is always a good thing.
 
You are wrong because Covid 19 is not some well known, ordinary virus that is causing myocarditis and other health complications (clots, lung damage, etc).

We simply don't know the short term AND long term effects of this virus.

Thankfully, we have medical doctors and scientists conducting studies like this so that the public can be informed. And fact and science based information is always a good thing.
Dude, we've known the link between covid and heart issue for about a year. You can keep saying we don't, but that doesn't make it true.
 
Dude, we've known the link between covid and heart issue for about a year. You can keep saying we don't, but that doesn't make it true.

Yes, we knew there was a link a year ago but not much more. That is why the B1G was so heavily criticized for canceling the football season when SO LITTLE WAS KNOWN.

And now, after this study, we know more about covid and the health issues it causes.

And hopefully all 1597 who participated in this study are monitored for many years to come so even more can be learned.
 
Yes, we knew there was a link a year ago but not much more. That is why the B1G was so heavily criticized for canceling the football season when SO LITTLE WAS KNOWN.

And now, after this study, we know more about covid and the health issues it causes.

And hopefully all 1597 who participated in this study are monitored for many years to come so even more can be learned.
There's literally nothing in that study that's new (unless you consider confirming what was already known as 'new')
 
Yes, we knew there was a link a year ago but not much more. That is why the B1G was so heavily criticized for canceling the football season when SO LITTLE WAS KNOWN.

And now, after this study, we know more about covid and the health issues it causes.

And hopefully all 1597 who participated in this study are monitored for many years to come so even more can be learned.
This thread suuuuuuuuucks. Great job. Heard one of our players stubbed a toe at practice - I anxiously await your thread about it.
 
There is more than one line to draw. First, the CDC, the Democrats and their propaganda press should have been honestly reporting this to the American people instead of using hysteria and fear porn to terrify people and blame it on Trump and Republican governors. If you cannot acknowledge this then you are living in an alternative reality, and the poster above that said the train left the station is spot on.

Second, after the first few weeks when T-19 first hit and picked off the low hanging fruit, we already knew the virus was spreading much slower than represented. When last I dug into the data only around 1% of the population had T-19 at any one time. The number of recovered was never reported to provide the context of how unlikely it was for the general public to even encounter someone with T-19?

Third, your mother, for example, should have recognized she was more at risk and she should have changed her behavior. Merchants should not have been required to close their business and lay off their employees to protect her and the entire country required to change its behavior. You could have been bringing her food and taking care of the other things that required Mom to leave the house and Village Inn could have stayed in business rather than closing and eliminating thousands of jobs, which will, in turn, cause physical and psychological damage to the owners, the franchisees, the employees.

Reductio ad absurdum is a formal fallacy. No one ever said of all the victims of T-19 "were going to die anyway" but the unpleasant reality is that many, statistically most, were already in major health crises with short life expectancies anyway. The target risk group could have been protected without the shut downs and damage to others, yet you seem unwilling to even contemplate such a result-the crises of imagination that eats away in the socialist totalitarianism where the leaders speak and the masses uncritically accept it as truth and act accordingly. National policy needs to balance damage to the many against damage to the few. Why did you never hear that 90% of C+ were asymptomatic or insufficiently ill to require any medical attention? Why did you never hear that almost no hospitals were ever out of capacity, rather than hearing about every incident where some hospital somewhere had a one or two day crush. Remember New York-they demanded 40,000 respirators when it turned out they needed 4000, and already had a stockpile of 2,000. Again, New York squealed that it had insufficient hospital space, Trump spends federal money to send a mobile military hospital and a massive USN hospital ship-and they're never used because NYC's hospital system was not overrun. Are you even aware of facts like I'm discussing. They're not conspiracy theories or Trumpkins it is the actual historical factual experience of what happened.

The CDC data shows a Covid death had an average of 2.5 co morbidities. That alone should tell you the risk exaggeration to the average person. Since the average is 2.5 it means more people had 3 co-morbidities, you know diseases or conditions that could have caused their death, than just two. Someone with just two alternative causes of death would describe an already very sick person not someone with pre emphysema COPD. Policy should have been targeted to protect the at risk population without the aforesaid devastating overreaction that was made to seem necessary by the lies and exaggerations

You do not need to be a genius to simply look at the real numbers, ignore all the rhetoric and realize that you were repeatedly, intentionally and maliciously lied to by partisans in government and media to secure a political result. A devastating response to a very limited threat to the average person. Then think of what kind of people would float and support such a devastating lie and ask yourself about what else would they lie to gain more political power.​
The only thing I disagree with is the political assertion that Trump was right and dems were wrong. They were both out of their minds and pushing agendas that often ignored reality.
 
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Your posts suck. Poor, pathetic job, as always. At least you are consistent & we know what to expect.
Coming from a guy that, despite the following statement:

“What’s important to know and to recognize is that the rates we are seeing of Myocarditis are no higher than what we experience normally”

…still starts a thread about myocarditis.
 
Coming from a guy that, despite the following statement:

“What’s important to know and to recognize is that the rates we are seeing of Myocarditis are no higher than what we experience normally”

…still starts a thread about myocarditis.
So I understand….. the myocarditis rates are essentially the same pre COVID and post COVID? 😉
 
Now we're changing the goal posts. We literally have the data where mask compliance was extremely high and where it wasn't. It made no difference. I'm not saying that Iowa or Texas or whoever "got it right." The NPI just had little to no difference on the spread of COVID. The most important factor has appeared to be seasonality based on climate. All the geographies with similar climates had similar curves over the fall/winter.

The argument of "masks would work except that people aren't wearing them well enough" is one of those un-falsifiable claims. Fauci was literally emailing people last year saying that the virus transmits via aerosol, which the surgical/cloth masks just don't do anything for. Every study done prior to 2020 and posted on the CDC site said this about respiratory viruses. It just didn't matter. What changed?

I would agree that with vaccinations and the size of the population that has had COVID, the % of people who are largely immune to COVID is fantastic news. I would imagine there will be another spike in the fall/winter in the Midwest, just like last year. But with vaccinations and people who have had COVID, hopefully the number of infections and serious cases is magnitudes less than last year.
Not changing the goal posts at all. People who wear masks on their chins rather than over nose and mouth really aren't wearing masks. And a mask mandate by itself doesn't tell us whether people are wearing them. I live in an area of California where mask compliance is mixed. While most people wear masks, there are businesses that don't require them and a significant minority of people who don't wear them. There also have been super-spreader gatherings, typically extended families and groups of students. Michigan has had mask and gathering mandates, yet East Lansing has been a hot mess because MSU students ignored the mandates and continued to party like students. On the other hand, there are places without mandates where many people have been wearing masks. My mom lives in Florida, and she told me that she rarely saw anyone without a mask.

Scientists have published studies showing that masks make a difference regarding COVID-19. Some of them are freely accessible. Here is one from PNAS and one from the International Journal of Infectious Diseases. The latter article concludes: "Mask-wearing, even with the use of non-medical masks, has a substantial impact on outbreak control."
 
We’ve known that myocarditis is a complication of viral illnesses for DECADES. The bigger news would be if there weren’t instances of it from COVID. You have consistently latched on to panic porn like this over the past year to try to make points and been wrong. In fairness most people have because it’s almost impossible to ignore when the media has been pushing it 24/7/365 for clicks and to drive preferred political narratives.


“Viral infection of the heart is relatively common and usually of little consequence.”

“Cardiac involvement in viral illnesses is common and may often go unnoticed.”

“In the United States and other developed countries, viral infections are most frequently the cause of myocarditis”




Gasp! You must be a dumbass, too if you disagree with Fran the wannabe bot.
 
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Not changing the goal posts at all. People who wear masks on their chins rather than over nose and mouth really aren't wearing masks. And a mask mandate by itself doesn't tell us whether people are wearing them. I live in an area of California where mask compliance is mixed. While most people wear masks, there are businesses that don't require them and a significant minority of people who don't wear them. There also have been super-spreader gatherings, typically extended families and groups of students. Michigan has had mask and gathering mandates, yet East Lansing has been a hot mess because MSU students ignored the mandates and continued to party like students. On the other hand, there are places without mandates where many people have been wearing masks. My mom lives in Florida, and she told me that she rarely saw anyone without a mask.

Scientists have published studies showing that masks make a difference regarding COVID-19. Some of them are freely accessible. Here is one from PNAS and one from the International Journal of Infectious Diseases. The latter article concludes: "Mask-wearing, even with the use of non-medical masks, has a substantial impact on outbreak control."

So, if parties are "super spreader events" I assume you would concede the BLM/Anitifa riots last summer were tsunami spreader events. Hundreds of thousands of people packed in close quarters screaming, hence spraying each other and sweating all over each other. Since the virons do not understand American politics it seems like those occurrences broke every Covid rule in the book, right?

Other studies find masks are not a significant factor in T-19 spread. At this point, looking at the low levels and increasing vax, plus natural herd immunity, kind of make the masks look silly for the average person. Obviously people can do whatever they want for personal safety, and God knows if you've got existing health issues you should probably mask up (or regularly around such a person) but the odds of even encountering someone with active T-19 is miniscule at this point-for the average citizen. Here in Iowa we have less than 100 cases per day, which might sound like a lot until you break it down.

Of that 100, 90 will either be false positive, asymptomatic or so minimally symptomatic as to require no medical attention-hence not a significant public threat. Using the standard stats that include the early 6 weeks where it was clear no one in the ****ing country knew anything about this virus and the virus was killing the naturally weak and/or already very ill (like all new viruses do-kill the population least resistant to the virus). About 4.5 will be out patient only and around 1.8, using the CDC's conflation of Covid hospitalization and death with other diseases will die.

So you end up with a serious health risk to 5 people per day, and, as I said all the more recent data is showing a number lower than 5%, indicating T-19 is attenuating and herd immunity is taking grip. Although the Biden/Fauci CDC is not releasing recovery numbers anymore a simple look at the total number of active cases shows the dramatic reduction with substantial more recoveries than new cases. If more people recover every day than contract the disease, and its only a tiny number that contract the disease, we clearly have a receding virus, the risk of which to the average person in miniscule.

So we're required to restrict our liberty, in many and more pernicious ways than just the masks for a micro threat that is both receding and attenuating. Unless one is demanding a zero risk goal, which will never happen, what is the compelling government interest in perpetuating using this miniscule risk to limit normal freedoms?
 
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If one reads the actual study there are several limitations to this paper. I am no expert in cardiac MRI (CMR) but of the 37 who had abnormal findings 28 were subclinical or asymptomatic. The paper states the LLC (Lake Louise Criteria) used in CMR diagnosis of myocarditis have been validated only in symptomatic myocarditis cases and not systematically studied in an asymptomatic cohort. That means the abnormalities in 28 of the athletes may not be meaningful. There was no centralized interpretation of the MRI's and incidence of positives varied among institutions from 0 to 7.6%. There is no way of knowing if the MRI's were correctly interpreted. I notice University of Illinois did not participate in the study. The next question to ask is do athletes who have not had Covid have abnormal CMR's and if so what percent. I quote from reference 32 from the paper "Highly trained endurance athletes showed a ten-fold increase in the prevalence of focal LGE as compared to control subjects, always confined to the hinge points". I doubt the grants used to fund this research will provide for long term follow up of these athletes, but I would not be very concerned if I were one of the athletes who had abnormal CMR.
 
Coming from a guy that, despite the following statement:

“What’s important to know and to recognize is that the rates we are seeing of Myocarditis are no higher than what we experience normally”

…still starts a thread about myocarditis.

Fran is pure comedy. He has never uttered anything resembling an original thought and calls people dumbasses for calling him on it. Starts so many threads he can't remember having started threads in the past that are 180 degrees opposite his current thread (like last year when he was pushing the B1G/Warren hatred). He and Chishawk are conjoined twins who are constantly pissed because they have to share the same keyboard.
 
Fran is pure comedy. He has never uttered anything resembling an original thought and calls people dumbasses for calling him on it. Starts so many threads he can't remember having started threads in the past that are 180 degrees opposite his current thread (like last year when he was pushing the B1G/Warren hatred). He and Chishawk are conjoined twins who are constantly pissed because they have to share the same keyboard.

Now this is comedy.

Sorry, Harry, that I hurt your feelings, but you prove time after time that you really are a dumb ass.
 
Yeah, and covid is just your ordinary virus that we knew so much about, where we were all all fools to be concerned. Not.
Maybe the bold will help if the rate of myocarditis is the same pre COVID and post COVID then it has nothing to do what people think of COVID. In no way shape or form did what I post reference whether it is an ordinary virus or whether we were all fools to be concerned. Feel free to try and stick to what I post when entering a response. If you want to discuss COVID we can do that. This thread was about how the rate of myocarditis hasn’t changed from prior to COVID and now.
 
By honoring them, I mean that there are times when our emotions should direct our beliefs, perspectives, responses, and actions. Emotions are a type of judgment. I'm not saying emotions should be blindly followed, but that they can reflect what matters most. Based on your posts, it is obvious that you are a conservative, so I will provide you with an example of a contemporary conservative who holds this view and a historical figure whom you most likely respect.

First, Leon Kass, who chaired GW Bush's President's Council on Bioethics and has been affiliated with the American Enterprise Institute for the past 20 years, has supported this view. He prominently did so regarding a particular emotion in setting out an argument against human cloning. "In some crucial cases ... repugnance is the emotional expression of deep wisdom, beyond reason's power completely to articulate it. Can anyone really give an argument fully adequate to the horror that is father-daughter incest (even with consent), or bestiality, or the mutilation of a corpse, or the eating of human flesh, or the rape or murder of another human being? Would anybody's failure to give full rational justification for his revulsion at those practices make that revulsion ethically suspect? ... In this age in which everything is held to be permissible so long as it is freely done, and in which our bodies are regarded as mere instruments of our autonomous rational will, repugnance may be the only voice left that speaks up to defend the central core of our humanity. Shallow are the souls that have forgotten how to shudder." While "the heart has its reasons that reason cannot entirely know," Kass goes on to provide reasons to support his view. Clearly, he argues this is a time when we should honor an emotion and what it is telling us. You don't have to agree with him regarding the particular instance of human cloning to accept the general point that there are times when emotions provide us with good judgment, or that people who shudder at nothing are emotionally shallow (or worse).

Second, Adam Smith, who was a moral philosopher and published six editions of a book entitled The Theory of Moral Sentiments. (In between he published a little treatise on political economy.) Smith thinks we learn morality through our emotions or sentiments, especially the one he calls sympathy (which most people today would call empathy), and our imagination. (As my mother would say, how would you feel if someone did that to you?) We use reason to help sort it all out. There are times when our emotional response is too strong, so it must be tempered, but there are also times when our emotional response is too weak. How do we know? Smith claims society provides a mirror for evaluating our own conduct and our emotional responses. Will others sympathize with us and the level of feeling that we have? If we feel little or nothing for a rape victim, or someone whose child has died, or someone who has just received a diagnosis of terminal illness, then we need to arouse the emotions.

What do you mean by directing? Legally direct? Socially?
I missed this.

Kass is describing an emotional feeling that produces a rational response. He is simply ignoring the step between feeling and action: rational analysis. The example's he's chosen as purely are things that instantly repulse and outrage most people. I'm saying following that feeling should come a period of reflection. Should we invade the liberty interest of someone without some demonstration that their repulsive behavior is bad for our larger society, and in some cases our evolutionary future. Kass chose examples where our hearts and heads came together before the birth of history. Yes cultural examples can be found where this inhumane conduct occurred but where are they now? Extinct or soon to be. The "rational analysis" occurred so long ago its baked into our reaction.

Thinking back hard on Smith, and I think you're right to a point. There have to be hard people to do hard things. They will not expect the do unto others ethic, but such people must exist.

"If we feel little or nothing for a rape victim, or someone whose child has died, or someone who has just received a diagnosis of terminal illness, then we need to arouse the emotions." Why? Those are all singular bad impacts, effecting few people.

For example, when I hear some criminal is killed by the police in the midst of committing, fleeing or concealing a crime I don't sympathize. They might not have deserved their fate, although usually they do, but the death of a hardened street criminal isn't really a loss to anyone but his family. If its an unjustified killing we get two for one when the psycho cop comes off the street and into the pen. The mere death of some criminal, unknown to me, would hardly so interrupt my mind that I couldn't take a college test. Yet that's the product of unchecked emotion applied for propaganda purposes that no rational thought could support.

Certainly compulsory direction and given the nature of the direction, certain social reactions-like you didn't see the George Floyd situation as a win/win. The career criminal will no longer prey on the public and neither will the psycho cop. Should I be forced to renounce that believe or be deprived of commerce, or a job in a college faculty?
 
So, if parties are "super spreader events" I assume you would concede the BLM/Anitifa riots last summer were tsunami spreader events. Hundreds of thousands of people packed in close quarters screaming, hence spraying each other and sweating all over each other. Since the virons do not understand American politics it seems like those occurrences broke every Covid rule in the book, right?

Other studies find masks are not a significant factor in T-19 spread. At this point, looking at the low levels and increasing vax, plus natural herd immunity, kind of make the masks look silly for the average person. Obviously people can do whatever they want for personal safety, and God knows if you've got existing health issues you should probably mask up (or regularly around such a person) but the odds of even encountering someone with active T-19 is miniscule at this point-for the average citizen. Here in Iowa we have less than 100 cases per day, which might sound like a lot until you break it down.

Of that 100, 90 will either be false positive, asymptomatic or so minimally symptomatic as to require no medical attention-hence not a significant public threat. Using the standard stats that include the early 6 weeks where it was clear no one in the ****ing country knew anything about this virus and the virus was killing the naturally weak and/or already very ill (like all new viruses do-kill the population least resistant to the virus). About 4.5 will be out patient only and around 1.8, using the CDC's conflation of Covid hospitalization and death with other diseases will die.

So you end up with a serious health risk to 5 people per day, and, as I said all the more recent data is showing a number lower than 5%, indicating T-19 is attenuating and herd immunity is taking grip. Although the Biden/Fauci CDC is not releasing recovery numbers anymore a simple look at the total number of active cases shows the dramatic reduction with substantial more recoveries than new cases. If more people recover every day than contract the disease, and its only a tiny number that contract the disease, we clearly have a receding virus, the risk of which to the average person in miniscule.

So we're required to restrict our liberty, in many and more pernicious ways than just the masks for a micro threat that is both receding and attenuating. Unless one is demanding a zero risk goal, which will never happen, what is the compelling government interest in perpetuating using this miniscule risk to limit normal freedoms?

Any gathering, especially indoors, that lacked properly-worn masks and/or distancing ran the risk of being a super-spreader.

The study you linked is not peer-reviewed, so it is no way equivalent to the two I linked.

You're right, though, that as vaccinations rise and disease incidence declines the need for masks has greatly diminished. California is scheduled to drop the remaining elements of its mask mandate next week.
 
The study had 1597 athletes. As I stated above, I hope they continue to monitor all 1597 for several decades to see what long term effects covid had on them. Hopefully there are minimal long term effects.

Science is a good thing. Information is a good thing. I think these 1597 are actually lucky to be a part of this study, because again, cardiac MRIs are not cheap. Only 37 developed myocarditis and hopefully their hearts go back to normal. Hopefully all 1597 live long, healthy lives and we continue to learn more and more about covid and its long term effects.

What it means: While it's clear that inactivity is a killer for heart disease sufferers, the links between strenuous exercise and heart disease mortality rates are murkier, says study coauthor Ute Mons, of the German Cancer Research Center. While some recent data, including her group's study, indicate that intense physical activity could have some adverse effects on your heart, the mechanisms at work aren't clear. That said, it's possible that working out too strenuously may increase oxidative stress and inflammation, which could explain the rise in mortality among the most hard-core exercise buffs, she says.


This is likely to contribute to the transition from hypertrophy to failure (Figure 1) [8]. Interestingly, recent studies have shown myocardial inflammation and fibrosis in animal models of long-term, intensive exercise. Chen et al [9] forced rats to swim strenuously, with histological evidence of localised myocyte damage, myocardial necrosis and inflammatory infiltrates. Benito et al [10] instituted an intensive treadmill running regime in young rats and showed that in the “marathon rats” there was an increase in atrial and ventricular inflammation/fibrosis.

Just pointing out that science also has data that says strenuous workouts can lead to inflammation as well. Do we know if the athletes have any (person or family) history of coronary disease? What were the races, sex, age, workout structures, and sport of athletes?
 
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Yes, we knew there was a link a year ago but not much more. That is why the B1G was so heavily criticized for canceling the football season when SO LITTLE WAS KNOWN.

And now, after this study, we know more about covid and the health issues it causes.

And hopefully all 1597 who participated in this study are monitored for many years to come so even more can be learned.
AND what you don't know is whether they had the condition before COVID or not, you know, getting it from some earlier viral infection. Which then makes having gotten as a result of having COVID moot. The long term affects of the heart condition I would bet has ZERO correlation to the virus that helped bring about the condition.
 
And what is the percentage of people with myocarditis after a bout with influenza, strep throat, hepatitis? Until they actually have a comparator the data is flawed. Yes myocarditis exists with covid, but it is like sharks in the ocean. They are there far more often than people swimming or surfing are aware of, but the shark didn't attack, and the people didn't see them. Start checking those fighting off other viruses and you will find myocarditis will make an appearance in some people that just fought off a sever cold etc. The data may be more about political manipulation than anything else. If not, why don't we have data that matters with comparators? One reason is, we aren't going to fund or be bothered with screening after other illnesses.
 
And what is the percentage of people with myocarditis after a bout with influenza, strep throat, hepatitis? Until they actually have a comparator the data is flawed. Yes myocarditis exists with covid, but it is like sharks in the ocean. They are there far more often than people swimming or surfing are aware of, but the shark didn't attack, and the people didn't see them. Start checking those fighting off other viruses and you will find myocarditis will make an appearance in some people that just fought off a sever cold etc. The data may be more about political manipulation than anything else. If not, why don't we have data that matters with comparators? One reason is, we aren't going to fund or be bothered with screening after other illnesses.
It’s been done. It’s within the same range as other viral infections. It’s posted in this thread.
 

Im sorry if I offended you, DSD. Really.

No need for all the ad hominem attacks. In my previous post I was making general statements about unsubstantiated claims and conspiracy theories.

here is a simple question that you can answer with peer reviewed data and credible sources.


Has our corporate and military industrial complex controlled government handled Covid or public health or education or any other area critical to freedom and democracy and happiness and quality of life better than the developed countries around the world, especially the social democracies like New Zealand and Scandinavia, those with national healthcare systems (their “Medicare for all”) equitable public K-12 funding and affordable public universities, etc.

Show me the data please, the credible peer reviewed sources and evidence, actual outcomes, and explain it in simple terms to people like me to are able to admit what they don’t know, and what fields in which they are not experts.

how happy are Americans with their economy and society - quality of life, services, opportunity - relative to the rest of the developed world? Hint: reputable surveys exist. Cite the data please.

Ive read the data for many years btw, and if you’re intellectually honest, you’ll be objective here. Try to be, please.

Im a pragmatist, as I said. I support what works, and demonstrably so.

Our system dont work no more.

Q.E.D.


P.s. what did you think of Graeber’s history of debt? It’s brilliant, trenchant, meticulously sourced and illuminating. At least watch his Google Talks presentation (linked in my earlier post) if you lack the time to read his monograph. His evidence about the parasitic foundation of our economic system is devastating btw. Look at the evidence. And be objective and honest.

Oh, and should Warren Buffett make hundreds of millions of dollars and pay an actual tax rate of close to zero percent? Is he a hero? To neoliberal corporate fascists like Milton Friedman, he would be. To me, he’s a parasite, like Bezos and Gates and Koch bros etc.

It’s not “socialism” to demand fairness and equality before the law. So stop the red-baiting.

 
LOL Franny going crazy again....Myocarditis is shown after the flu all the time. I've seen many adults in their 30s and 40s who are compete slobs-- drink daily, smoke cigs, don't exercise, and aren't getting vaccinated - they are still walking around okay.
 
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Nine of those athletes with myocarditis reported cardiac symptoms, but 28 reported no cardiac symptoms.

Lets not make this political. This just goes to show there is a lot we still don't know about covid 19. Originally we just assumed the virus attacked the lungs. But now we know it goes after the heart & it can cause blood clotting.

And what about 5 years from now? 10 years? Etc? We simply don't know.

Yes, the percentage is low but would you want your son or daughter to be one of the 37?


The story:

While not a shot at you, is there any proof the condition was actually caused by this particular virus and not a previous infection?
 
Myocarditis does not usually lead to cardiomyopathy (weakened heart muscle) which is a serious heart condition. Only one of the athletes showed evidence of cardiomyopathy with ejection fraction (EF) of 35 - 40% (percent of blood in the heart ejected with each heart beat). Normal EF is 55-70%. Hopefully that athlete's EF will return to normal but no way to predict if that will happen. It is not known if Covid caused the decreased EF or whether it was preexisting. Myocarditis is a scary term but mild myocarditis normally causes no lasting problems.
 
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Myocarditis does not usually lead to cardiomyopathy (weakened heart muscle) which is a serious heart condition. Only one of the athletes showed evidence of cardiomyopathy with ejection fraction (EF) of 35 - 40% (percent of blood in the heart ejected with each heart beat). Normal EF is 55-70%. Hopefully that athlete's EF will return to normal but no way to predict if that will happen. It is not known if Covid caused the decreased EF or whether it was preexisting. Myocarditis is a scary term but mild myocarditis normally causes no lasting problems.

This is all correct.
 
Im sorry if I offended you, DSD. Really.

No need for all the ad hominem attacks. In my previous post I was making general statements about unsubstantiated claims and conspiracy theories.

here is a simple question that you can answer with peer reviewed data and credible sources.


Has our corporate and military industrial complex controlled government handled Covid or public health or education or any other area critical to freedom and democracy and happiness and quality of life better than the developed countries around the world, especially the social democracies like New Zealand and Scandinavia, those with national healthcare systems (their “Medicare for all”) equitable public K-12 funding and affordable public universities, etc.

Show me the data please, the credible peer reviewed sources and evidence, actual outcomes, and explain it in simple terms to people like me to are able to admit what they don’t know, and what fields in which they are not experts.

how happy are Americans with their economy and society - quality of life, services, opportunity - relative to the rest of the developed world? Hint: reputable surveys exist. Cite the data please.

Ive read the data for many years btw, and if you’re intellectually honest, you’ll be objective here. Try to be, please.

Im a pragmatist, as I said. I support what works, and demonstrably so.

Our system dont work no more.

Q.E.D.


P.s. what did you think of Graeber’s history of debt? It’s brilliant, trenchant, meticulously sourced and illuminating. At least watch his Google Talks presentation (linked in my earlier post) if you lack the time to read his monograph. His evidence about the parasitic foundation of our economic system is devastating btw. Look at the evidence. And be objective and honest.

Oh, and should Warren Buffett make hundreds of millions of dollars and pay an actual tax rate of close to zero percent? Is he a hero? To neoliberal corporate fascists like Milton Friedman, he would be. To me, he’s a parasite, like Bezos and Gates and Koch bros etc.

It’s not “socialism” to demand fairness and equality before the law. So stop the red-baiting.


You start with both major premises flawed. First, your premise is government should provide goods and services to the population-by citing little and unimportant socialist governments as examples to follow. I do not. Government should generally be providing goods and services only for people that genuinely cannot do so for themselves, and only those goods and services as are reasonably necessary to live a decent life.

The small Eurotrash socialists, like Sweden, the most depressing place on Earth, or New Zealand are simply not analogous to the United States. Those countries have a very different feudal (carried from the UK to New Zealand) histories. Those people have always been subjects of the "sovereign". Part of the duties of the sovereign was to provide for their subjects.

Whatever you want the US to be we were specifically designed to eliminate the subject/sovereign concept. We are a society based on liberty, not the most efficient administration of public welfare, in all its tax subsidized forms. That efficiency is entirely subordinate to the simple metric, each policy should only be adopted if it is consistent with providing the maximum individual liberty consistent with an organized society. You are, at best, reversing those priorities and making social organization (e.g. efficiency of administering the public dole) the a priori objective. That distinction involves every thought that thereafter follows.

On a less fundamental basis-the little "social democracies" are not useful analogs. Even the largest and wealthiest, Germany and the UK, could not provide the socialist benefits they have were they required to support a military sufficiently large to protect them from their primary military threats. We do that for them. So instead of 100 Leopard tanks Germany should have 1000 if they really are scared of the Russians. At least the British do maintain a helpfully large military, which makes the dole smaller there than the rest of Europe.

They are all small countries compared the us. They have very homogeneous populations, where one size really does fit everyone, hence central control of social and economic organization much more practical. So your real world analogies are misplaced.

As for national feeling its not surprising given the 60 years of Americans hearing how much we suck from, well, you. In spite of that far more people seek to come to the US, from everywhere including the ubiquitous socialist democracies. That's the real measure of where people want to live. If you're not already rich or aristocratic you'll probably never get there in Europe, where hard work, risk taking and entrepreneurship are sacrificed to egalitarianism so the slothful guy that does the minimum is as well treated as the genius that invests a cure for cancer. Hell, you cannot even be fired in France for merely underperforming.

I'm not sure what you're asking but peer reviewed studies kind of leaves me flat. Academia is 95% left or far left, and there are dozens, maybe hundreds of surveys that have tracked this academic phenomena since the 50s. They lead the cultural nihilism that denigrates the United States. Finding someone that already agrees with your conclusion to confirm the conclusion with which they already agree doesn't really mean very much anymore. Its like the Nobel Peace Prize.

However, I agree a great deal of the population is discontented. That is the whole basis of conservative populism. I'm sure you never actually listened to Trump, only the preposterous reporting of what he says, but I'm discontented, and millions like me, because we are heartily sick of the industrial-political complex that is destroying the country. We don't like big banks, big finance, multinational trade deals, bailouts for billionaires, etc... Markets rigged for Walmart but not Joe's Hardware. But as much as we loathe this unholy alliance of big business and big governments we do not want it replaced with socialism, which inevitably leads to authoritarian and eventually totalitarian extinction of liberty. Go speak against he government in the UK and see how quickly you're on a police watch list, and they're the least restrictive government in Europe. Who do you think led the revolt against, for example, the bail outs? Populist conservatives, the entire sweep of 2010. What we have learned in 10 years since is the 5% of our party does whatever it wants. That crew (Riley, Romney, Cheney, Bushes, etc...) are in for a big surprise next year. But I digress as I chuckle about 2022 and Suicide Wednesday on K Street when the primaries are over.

So, I agree we need change, not more Marxism but much less. You display your fundamental Marxism with the urban myth about billionaires and their taxes. I'm no fan of most billionaires but you are explicitly saying we should take more from them and redistribute it other people that purportedly have a greater need for it. From each according to his ability, to each according to their need. You are literally describing the operational definition of Marxism.

I say urban myth for two reasons. Either they are just lying, and I suspect they are, or they are misleading the public by failing to disclose the difference between income tax and capital gains tax. The rate on capital gains is lower because the income that purchased the asset producing the gain was already taxed once, so its a double tax. Couldn't find the most recent year (quickly) cuz I'm tired but the top 1 % already pays 38.5% of the nation's income tax while earning only 21% of the national income. The top 5% already pay mere fractions of a percent less than 60% of national income tax revenue. The balance skews towards greater imbalance in favor of the lower quintiles when the Trump cuts took effect because the doubled standard deduction, the increased children's credit and a few other new or expanded low income deductions, like state income tax. Effects the wealthy heavily while having a trivial effect on the lower two quintiles. What non Marxist theory of distributive justice could possibly justify 5% of the population supporting more than 60% of the population?

So you want to further imbalance the makers and the takers? I thought we were all in this together?

If the proverbial me already provides the proverbial you with housing, food, education, Obama phones, healthcare and police and fire security what do you do for me, except complain and demand more? That, my friend, is why the country is so broken. Franklin was right when he said: "When the people find they can vote themselves money will herald the end of the republic."

I am not red baiting. You may not be a paleo agricultural communist like Pol Pot but once your justification for taxation hits the "because you have it" point you're marching under the Hammer and Cycle, Comrade. It seems simple because it is the simplest of dialectics. If you find that unpalatable perhaps you should rethink your Marxist premise and reembrace liberty as the vehicle that will restore the benefits of our past through a much smaller government footprint, including the laws that distort markets by protecting multinational mega commercial entities.

I haven't watched the video but I will.

 
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